![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:20:03
After approx. 2 months of my son being in counseling, the therapist decided he might need meds.. told me make a appt with the pdoc to evaluate him.. we had the appt today and the pdoc put him on 10 mgs of ritalin. My son shows classic symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder but also has behavior of ADHD. He's always been difficult but thought he would grow out of it but this past year has been a living hell.
I dont feel comfortable about him being on ritalin, maybe because of the bad rep it has had.
Does anyone have kids that is now or was ever on ritalin and can tell me what to expect.. or any of you that have been on it yourself, can give me some insight to wether this a route we should try or something else?
Thanks
Posted by Buckeye Fan on June 2, 2004, at 19:29:17
In reply to my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:20:03
Please try something else.
Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
candy etc....Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
girl.We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.Anything but Ritalin.
PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..God bless
Buckeye Fan
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 19:39:17
In reply to my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:20:03
Thomas Szasz is a hard-line reactionary psychiatrist, but this is unequivocally food for thought:
Chemical Straitjackets for Children by Thomas S. Szasz
The following essay is reproduced here by permission of Sheldon Richman, Editor, Ideas on Liberty.
Ideas on Liberty is published by The Foundation for Economic Education, Irvington-on-Hudson, NY 10533.
Szasz, T. Chemical straitjackets for children. Ideas on Liberty, 50: 38-39 (July), 2000.
CHEMICAL STRAITJACKETS FOR CHILDRENby
Thomas S. Szasz, M.D.
In February, a group of physicians writing in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that the use of "psychotropic medications prescribed for preschoolers increased dramatically between 1991 and 1995." About twice as many children between the ages of 2 and 4 were given Ritalin, Prozac, and other so-called psychotropic drugs at the end of that period as at the beginning of it. In a front-page story, the New York Times cited experts calling the finding "very surprising." It is about as surprising as finding the proverbial fox feasting on chickens. In a paper published in January 1957 -- at the dawn of the "new psychiatric revolution" -- I stated that psychiatric drugs are "chemical straitjackets" that control -- not cure -- the persons self-servingly called "patients."
In my last column (May), I commented about the nineteenth-century epidemic of mental illness called "masturbatory insanity." In this column, I comment about our present-day epidemic of mental illness called "attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)."
To grasp the enormity of the stupidity that informs these so-called diagnoses, we must be clear about the difference between a diagnosis and a disease.
Diagnoses Are Not Diseases
Webster's dictionary defines diagnosis as "The art or act of identifying a disease from its signs and symptoms." According to The Oxford English Dictionary (OED), it is the "determination of the nature of a diseased condition; ... also, the opinion (formally stated) resulting from such investigation."
The concept of diagnosis is contingent on the concept of disease. Diagnosis is the name of a disease, just as, say, violet is the name of a flower. For example, the term "diabetes" names a type of abnormal glucose metabolism. The disease qua somatic pathology -- literal disease -- is the abnormal metabolism; the diagnosis, "diabetes," is its name. Somatic pathology is diagnosed by finding abnormalities (lesions) in bodies or body parts. Disease qua somatic pathology may be asymptomatic and changing the nosology (classification of disease) can change the name but not the reality of somatic pathology as disease. Unless we keep in mind that diseases are facts of nature, whereas diagnoses are artifacts constructed by human beings, and that the core meaning of the term "disease" is lesion, we forfeit the possibility of understanding the uses and abuses of the term "diagnosis."
Manipulating things is difficult, sometimes impossible. Manipulating names is easy; we do it all the time. Violet may be the name of a flower, or a color, or a woman, or a street. Similarly, a disease-sounding term may be the name of a bodily malfunction, or the malfunction of a car, a computer, an economic system, or the behavior of an individual or group. We cannot distinguish between the literal and metaphorical uses of the term "disease" unless we identify its root meaning, agree that it is the literal meaning of the word, and treat all other uses of it as figures of speech. In conformity with traditional medical practice, I take the root meaning of disease to be a bodily lesion, understood to include not only structural malfunctions but also deviations from normal physiology, such as elevated blood pressure or depressed red cell count. If we accept this definition, then the term "diagnosis," used literally, refers to and is the name of a disease, and used metaphorically, refers to and is the name of a non-disease.
By identifying diagnosis as an opinion, the OED recognizes that it refers to a judgment. Typically, the process of diagnosing disease begins with the patient himself: he has aches or pains, feels feverish or fatigued, and judges that he is ill. If he complains about his body, then -- in a medical context -- his complaint constitutes a symptom, a medical-sounding word that implies that the patient's experience is a manifestation of a disease. The point to keep in mind is that a symptom may or may not indicate the presence of a (real) disease. Whether a symptom is or is not a manifestation of disease depends on its confirmation or non-confirmation by objective data based, for example, on laboratory tests or the examination of a biopsy specimen. In contrast to the so-called "clinical diagnosis," the "pathological diagnosis" is based entirely on objective -- histological, morphological, chemical, serological, radiological, and other physical-chemical -- evidence. Historically, scientific medicine (as against clinical medicine) is based on the post-mortem examination of the body; in modern medicine, it is increasingly based on ante-mortem scientific measures of abnormal bodily functionings.
Diagnosing Disease: Cui Bono?
Unlike bodily illnesses, mental illnesses are diagnosed by finding unwanted behaviors in persons or by attributing such behaviors to them. Bodily illnesses -- say, cancer or diabetes -- are located in bodies; mental illnesses -- say, kleptomania or schizophrenia -- are located in social contexts. Robinson Crusoe could suffer from cancer, but not from kleptomania.
The diagnosis of a mental illness validates its own disease status. Disease qua psychopathology cannot be asymptomatic and changing the nosology can change disease into non-disease and vice versa (for example, homosexuality into civil right and smoking into substance abuse). Mental diseases are diagnoses, not diseases. Conversely, psychiatric diagnoses (however constructed) are, by definition, mental diseases (or "disorders," to use the mental health professionals' preferred weasel word).
To understand the tactical rather than descriptive uses of terms such as "ill" and "patient," we must -- following Cicero (106-43 B.C.) -- ask: Cui bono? Cicero explained the importance of posing this question, primarily to oneself, as follows: "When trying a case [the famous judge] L. Cassius never failed to inquire, 'Who gained by it?' Man's character is such that no man undertakes crimes without hope of gain."
Mutatis mutandis, no man asserts that he or someone else has an illness without hope of gain. The goods that a person gains from asserting such a claim range from securing medical help for himself to justifying controlling the Other by defining coercion as cure. Consider the evidence:
· The disease of masturbation affected mainly children; so does the disease of hyperactivity.· The disease of masturbation pained parents, teachers, and other adults, not the denominated patients; the disease of hyperactivity pains and does not pain the same persons, respectively.
· The disease of masturbation was treated with physical restraints forcibly imposed on the bodies of children; the disease of hyperactivity is treated with chemical restraints forcibly introduced into the bodies of children.
· The disease of masturbation was the favorite diagnosis of doctors and parents dealing with troublesome children in the nineteenth century; attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is the favorite diagnosis of doctors and parents dealing with troublesome children today.
Belief in masturbatory insanity was, as I emphasized, not an innocent error. Neither is belief in ADHD. Each belief is a manifestation of the adults' annoyance by certain ordinary childhood activities, their efforts to control or eliminate the activities to allay their own discomfort, and the medical profession's willingness to diagnose disturbing childhood behaviors, thus medicalizing and justifying the domestication of children by drugs defined as therapeutic.
Formerly, quacks had fake cures for real diseases; now, they claim to have real cures for fake diseases.
Posted by zeugma on June 2, 2004, at 19:44:18
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by Buckeye Fan on June 2, 2004, at 19:29:17
> Please try something else.
>
> Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
> Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
> candy etc....
>
> Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
> girl.
>
> We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
> natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.
>
> Anything but Ritalin.
> PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..
>
> God bless
>
> Buckeye Fan
>
i respectfully disagree with the above post. I was diagnosed with ADD in an era that was much less 'med-happy' than today's. my parents were not inclined to take the then-outre step of using a stimulant to treat my condition. Instead I became the prey of a varying band of quacks, psychoanalysts, tried 'natural' cures like tryptophan, dietary changes, exercise.... they simply did not work and my academic carrer and self-esteem were dealt severe blows. ADD is a serious condition, and meds like Ritalin and Strattera do work. My life has been completely changed since I sought out a specialist in ADD who has been helping me on the pharmaceutical end of things, which I consider a precondition necessary IF your child does have a case of ADD serious enough to warrant intervention. I am in my mid 30's and for the first time have been able to hold down a full time job. ADD is not a condition to be treated lightly; it can ruin lives and lead to years wasted in misery.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:51:01
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by Buckeye Fan on June 2, 2004, at 19:29:17
> Please try something else.
>
> Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
> Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
> candy etc....
>
> Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
> girl.
>
> We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
> natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.
>
> Anything but Ritalin.
> PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..
>
> God bless
>
> Buckeye Fan
>I know stimulants are not a good idea, but manic depression/anxiety disorders run in both sides of his family. He acts out what I felt at his age and I became suicidal at 14.. he's exhibiting same behavior. I would love to be able to control his diet, but he refuses to eat and do things that are healthy for him. He is depressed, he was expelled the last 3 weeks of this school year, he failed sixth grade, he is destrutive and aggressive.
I feel like a bad parent either way I go.
The pdoc said right now its the short life stuff and only going to use it basically when needed.. like for concentration when he needs to focus on school/studying and such. He doesnt even want me give it to him daily. Cant there be anything good that comes from it or maybe another medication?
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 19:57:26
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Buckeye Fan, posted by zeugma on June 2, 2004, at 19:44:18
I never said that I agreed with the post, heh. It's just food for thought. I have ADD too, and being unmedicated is misery for me as well. But that does not mean that people do not use it as an excuse to medicate children to make them docile, even when they can concentrate just fine. You seem to acknowledge the point which I was trying to drive home by posting that column, which is that medication is serious business for children and one should make sure that it is being used in the interest of the CHILD, not the parents or school system.
There is also the possibility that there is nothing wrong with people like us; we just have hardware that isn't well-suited for most jobs and life-task scenarios in this society, and certain drugs help us out. This is not the forum to get into the finer points of concept of mental illness, but it suffices to say that Thomas Szasz is a genius, whether or not you agree with him. I personally think he is overzealous, but he could argue any of us into the ground ... Do you not think that his reference to masturbatory insanity was relevant at all?
Posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:13
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Buckeye Fan, posted by zeugma on June 2, 2004, at 19:44:18
> > Please try something else.
> >
> > Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
> > Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
> > candy etc....
> >
> > Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
> > girl.
> >
> > We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
> > natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.
> >
> > Anything but Ritalin.
> > PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..
> >
> > God bless
> >
> > Buckeye Fan
> >
> i respectfully disagree with the above post. I was diagnosed with ADD in an era that was much less 'med-happy' than today's. my parents were not inclined to take the then-outre step of using a stimulant to treat my condition. Instead I became the prey of a varying band of quacks, psychoanalysts, tried 'natural' cures like tryptophan, dietary changes, exercise.... they simply did not work and my academic carrer and self-esteem were dealt severe blows. ADD is a serious condition, and meds like Ritalin and Strattera do work. My life has been completely changed since I sought out a specialist in ADD who has been helping me on the pharmaceutical end of things, which I consider a precondition necessary IF your child does have a case of ADD serious enough to warrant intervention. I am in my mid 30's and for the first time have been able to hold down a full time job. ADD is not a condition to be treated lightly; it can ruin lives and lead to years wasted in misery.
>
>
zeugma.. what does it feel like to be add? I want to try to understand my child a little more, all he shows me and expresses to me is that he is angry and hates me and hates the world, hates his life, but that doesnt tell me what the depth of his emotions are. How does it feel to be on ritalin? Do you feel drugged, lack emotion, feel like a different person.. for the worse or better?My son is too resistant to attempt any natural approach or any exercise. He is able to exhibit control most of the time, but that could have come from me constantly yelling and being angry over his behavior all these years. As it is now, when he has an explosive episode, when I get to yelling and screaming, then he calms but that only lasts a matter of minutes.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 20:00:14
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:51:01
The stimulants are safe and effective. If they help your child who is ailing without them, go for it! Despite people's stimulant prejudice, the fact is that few drugs are as well-studied as the stimulants with such an extensive record of safety. Amphetamine's been around since the 1880s. One cannot say the same for Strattera, desipramine, etc.
Posted by linkadge on June 2, 2004, at 21:49:27
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » seeknsolace, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 20:00:14
These drugs are certainly worth a try. Somtimes when a child actually has this disorder, there will be problems untill they are attacked at the source. The idea that all children are created equal, and that all they need is to eat properly and exercise and all will be well, is simply not true.
You wouldn't say to a youngster with juvenile diabeties to wing it without medication would you ?? Give it a try. Oftentimes if a medication works it spurs the child to make other positive changes in their life to lessen the need for the medication.
Best of LuckLinkadge
Posted by kotsunega on June 2, 2004, at 23:21:20
In reply to give it a try, posted by linkadge on June 2, 2004, at 21:49:27
I agree with linkadge. Give it a try. I have ADD and the use of stimulants has finally made it possible for me to receive good to excellent job performance reviews. Prior to stimulants, my performance was marginal. I had no self esteem, I could not focus on tasks, I had no attention to detail and missed all kinds of things I needed to pay attention to in my job. My son has ADHD. Stimulants were suggested for him when he was in grade school due to his behavior and lack of academic achievement. I refused that idea and my son dropped out of school in later years. He started on Adderall finally several months ago and it has made a world of difference for him. My advice is to try it out.
Posted by Sad Panda on June 3, 2004, at 0:32:36
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 19:57:26
> I never said that I agreed with the post, heh. It's just food for thought. I have ADD too, and being unmedicated is misery for me as well. But that does not mean that people do not use it as an excuse to medicate children to make them docile, even when they can concentrate just fine.
>
>How could Ritalin calm down a child & make him docile unless they have ADD/ADHD? If you give a normal child a stimulant, wouldn't it make that child hyper & prove that they didn't have ADD?
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 5:46:37
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by Sad Panda on June 3, 2004, at 0:32:36
I've met plenty of people for whom around 10-30mg of Dexedrine is calming. I doubt all of those people had ADD. I remember seeing footage on the history channel of some teenagers relaxing in a convertible on Benzedrine. Properly dosed, stimulants make many people calm. The "paradoxical calming" is not the absolute diagnostic tool it's made out to be.
Stimulants also can help make boring, repetative activities--or classes--more interesting.
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 13:41:11
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:13
> > > Please try something else.
> > >
> > > Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
> > > Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
> > > candy etc....
> > >
> > > Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
> > > girl.
> > >
> > > We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
> > > natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.
> > >
> > > Anything but Ritalin.
> > > PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..
> > >
> > > God bless
> > >
> > > Buckeye Fan
> > >
> > i respectfully disagree with the above post. I was diagnosed with ADD in an era that was much less 'med-happy' than today's. my parents were not inclined to take the then-outre step of using a stimulant to treat my condition. Instead I became the prey of a varying band of quacks, psychoanalysts, tried 'natural' cures like tryptophan, dietary changes, exercise.... they simply did not work and my academic carrer and self-esteem were dealt severe blows. ADD is a serious condition, and meds like Ritalin and Strattera do work. My life has been completely changed since I sought out a specialist in ADD who has been helping me on the pharmaceutical end of things, which I consider a precondition necessary IF your child does have a case of ADD serious enough to warrant intervention. I am in my mid 30's and for the first time have been able to hold down a full time job. ADD is not a condition to be treated lightly; it can ruin lives and lead to years wasted in misery.
> >
> >
> zeugma.. what does it feel like to be add? I want to try to understand my child a little more, all he shows me and expresses to me is that he is angry and hates me and hates the world, hates his life, but that doesnt tell me what the depth of his emotions are. How does it feel to be on ritalin? Do you feel drugged, lack emotion, feel like a different person.. for the worse or better?
>It's hard for me to answer the question at the beginning of this paragraph because I doubt I'm 'typical' ADD. I have lots of comorbidities, Non Verbal Learning Disorder, depression, narcolepsy (beginning at age 23, but my sleep was terrible long before that), and on and on. On a stimulant I felt all right, but was taken off because I lost weight quickly. On Strattera I do not feel remotely 'normal,' but it is better than nothing.
When I was 12 I expressed similar feelings to my parents which leads me to suspect that it is true ADD combined with anxiety/depression, and it needs to be taken seriously. The meds are not 'normalizers', but they do improve things in a few crucial areas. They are no cures, but they can help, and i strongly believe they should be used if the condition is serious enough to warrant their use.
> My son is too resistant to attempt any natural approach or any exercise. He is able to exhibit control most of the time, but that could have come from me constantly yelling and being angry over his behavior all these years. As it is now, when he has an explosive episode, when I get to yelling and screaming, then he calms but that only lasts a matter of minutes.
> When I was severely depressed/ exhibited ADD symptoms I could not exercise because my mind was too chaotic to plan anything. I have begun to exercise (and it is an excellent thing to do, of course) because my attention and depression have improved sufficiently for the rudiments of an exercise program to be followed. Your son might have better self-control on a stimulant or Strattera and these other strategies that Buckeye Fan advocates might be able to be implemented. That's how I would look at it.
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 19:57:26
> I never said that I agreed with the post, heh. It's just food for thought. I have ADD too, and being unmedicated is misery for me as well. But that does not mean that people do not use it as an excuse to medicate children to make them docile, even when they can concentrate just fine. You seem to acknowledge the point which I was trying to drive home by posting that column, which is that medication is serious business for children and one should make sure that it is being used in the interest of the CHILD, not the parents or school system.
I agree completely that meds are being overprescribed, and I think that there are so many interests at work (pharm companies, parents, schools) that it is hard to make sure it is truly in the child's interest. Psychiatrists practice in a field that is closer to advertising than medicine.... in my opinion the quality of antidepressants has drastically declined from the days when they were only prescribed to hospital inpatients (TCA's and MAOI's). Strattera is too new to pass judgment on it, but I can say, comparing it to the TCA nortriptyline, that the TCA is the drug I would prefer to be on for the rest of my life. I need to figure out some way to stay on a stimulant; I am trying exercise to build up some mass so i don't have to take Strattera, which is partially redundant with a TCA anyway, to manage my ADD. I can say categorically that, for me, the TCA, which was essentially discovered by accident, is far superior to the 'rationally developed', 'clean', 'targeted' Strattera (the whole Prozac mythology, which I despise.)I think AD's should only be prescribed to those who need them. The pharm companies have a stake in making as many people need them as possible.
>
> There is also the possibility that there is nothing wrong with people like us; we just have hardware that isn't well-suited for most jobs and life-task scenarios in this society, and certain drugs help us out. This is not the forum to get into the finer points of concept of mental illness, but it suffices to say that Thomas Szasz is a genius, whether or not you agree with him. I personally think he is overzealous, but he could argue any of us into the ground ... Do you not think that his reference to masturbatory insanity was relevant at all?Yes. His analogy is flawed in this respect, however. Masturbation was a violation of a moral code, and the hypothesis that implicated it in the etiology of insanity was in retrospect a miserably transparent and self-serving (pun intended) falsehood. ADD, on the other hand, is a complex of behaviors, and at least involves the right organ for the cause of a mental illness.
One way he scores points is by profiting on our ignorance of what ADD, and for that matter depression, is. But just as I know when I'm depressed, I can feel the inattention oppress me, yet I can observe others whose behavior does not seem affected by this oppression. So I take medication for the condition, in the attempt to emulate those I see whose functioning appears efficient and unimpaired. Can Szasz explain the fatigue, the low threshold for stimulation, the terrible drain it is for me to plan an hour in advance? He might deny that these are symptoms of any underlying disorder. But as he says, names mean nothing. I am distressed by my symptoms. They cause functional impairment in society. I have to live in society, because I don't have ready access to an alternate reality at the moment (maybe before the drugs I did). So I search for remedies. What could Szasz say to that?
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 14:28:10
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
Doing a simple MRI can determine which children have and which ones do not have genuine ADD.
With a child with ADD/ADHD there is extremely low activity in the left prefrontal cortex. This hypoactivity is seen throuought a variety of tasks. This is not BS created by the drug companies to make money, nor is it an excuse to make kids docile. When the medication works in a child it turns on these hypoactive areas, and its not the drug which calms them down but rather the activation of their own prefrontal cortex.
Remeber when Dr. Kramer described an ocasional case of AD,s makeing people better than well?? After this book was released, saying you were on prozac had absolutely no merrit. People thought you were just trying to get a legal buzz.
You have to realize that just like true depression exists, true ADD exists and we must not condem the drug but rather the misuse of it.
If your child responds to dietery aproaches, great. But some don't respond to it.
It's just like the dweens who point out the dangers of ECT. Any baffoon can raise a flag. But I would like to see one person with a genuine and functional solutuion for those who do not respond the the fairy approaches.
These kids cannot concentrate because the part of the brain that concentrates is not working. And sitting around and doing nothing for them is only going to amplify the situation down the road.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 14:47:35
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
The Szasz point is not that your suffering does not exist. In fact, he probably would concede that it's likely many so-called "mental illnesses" have a biological basis. He would also defend your right to have drugs to ease your suffering, and that you have the right to have said drugs without a "prescription"--really a permission slip--signed by a doctor. His point is that there are no external validating criteria that objectively confirm or deny the presence of any mental illness. None. There are only correlates between brain and behavior. We have absolutely no understanding of how neural activity gives rise to consciousness, and any understanding thereof requires an entirely new [meta]physics.
If any psychiatric illnesses really were "brain diseases", they would be designated as NEUROLOGICAL DISORDERS. Neurosyphilis and Alzheimer's are two examples of diseases that used to be the domain of psychiatry, but now are in the domain of neurology. Therefore, if neurology is the domain of medicine that handles diseases of the brain, what, praytell, does psychiatry handle? Biological psychiatry purports to treat disorders with a biological basis that have no identified biological basis. This is logically impossible, and thus biological psychiatry is absurd.
If you concede that the above is correct, then the masturbatory insanity analogy becomes relevant, because there ceases to be anything wrong with the child's brain. What's left then, is, as Szasz puts it, "social control masquerading as medicine".
You really should hear this straight from the horse's mouth; my words are a flimsy reconstruction of his robust arguments. Check out www.szasz.com, especially the manifesto and "Szasz Materials".
I'm not proselytizing here; it's simply vital that anyone who's interested in mental illness be familiar with him. For a less extreme reactionary psychiatrist's view, read the excellent "Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain" by Elio Frattaroli.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 15:07:55
In reply to There is something wrong with these children, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 14:28:10
There is a lot more to behavior and consciousness than simple pictures of glucose utilization in the brain, and no one can prove that this is a biological pathology yet. I am not anti-medication, nor do I think people with attentional problems are "making them up"; I am one of them. I am simply in favor of logic and good science, and there is no science which can show me that ADD is _CAUSED_ by a biological defect. There may be a biological defect, or perhaps some people's brains just work differently. Who is to say which SPECT scan pattern is "normal"? What's to keep the government from doing a SPECT scan on you and imprisoning you for having patterns indicative of certain political views? I'm not being paranoid, research is already being done to make this possible: http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuromarketing_nyt_apr20_04.html .
In the 1950s, biological psychiatrists got all excited because a lesion, dot, or something like that in a certain area of the brains of schizophrenics. This was the biological defect they'd been looking for! The excitement died down when investigators discovered it was the administration of Thorazine that created the lesion/dot.
Moral of the story is that scientific discoveries are exciting, but scientific proof is the goal of science.
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 16:16:51
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 15:07:55
Yes but it is fairly clear to us. Pretty much all drugs that enhance cognition turn on the prefrontal cortex. Criminals with little conscience lack prefrontal activity. As well, studies showing dammage to the prefrontal cortex results in impulsive behavior.
Alcohol can cause disinhibition by turning off the prefrontal cortex.
As well it has been shown that ADD'rs have abnormal PEA metabolism.
Sure, nothing is ever *sure* in water-world,
but clues do point to a certain cause. Please, by all means let another theory come allong to replace this one, but don't trash something that works.After all, ritalin worked first, then the theories about why it worked came into place.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 16:16:51
I'm not trashing the use of Ritalin per se, I'm questioning the diagnostic categories. Back when amphetamine was a decongestant in 1937, doctors found quite by accident that it calmed down "hyperactive" kids. However, "hyperactive" is a value judgement, and back then no one pretended that there was anything biologically wrong with the hyperactive kids--which is the notion I'm trashing. It is the NATURE of young children to be hyperactive! Sure, some kids perhaps have some biological abnormality in the brain. However, in using SPECT scans, one can never escape the value judgement of what is "normal" behavior. "Normal" with behavior, is ALWAYS social, and never medical. This is what I am opposing.
I am not opposing the use of drugs to help people live more functional and rewarding lives. If I opposed that in any way, you'd hardly find me trying my best to help people find the right medications. :)
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 17:25:13
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
Normal is what feels right.
Take it from the children. The ones who respond to the medication say things like, "for the first time I was able to think about weather or not to hit the other kid", or "I am able to focus on what is infront of me", or "finally my mind shut up".
I know the notion is that we want kids to be a certain way, and we are trying to drug them to make them that way. However, you will find that *if* these medications work, they help the child in many more ways than just in school such as:, on the playground, communicating their thoughts and feelings, more able to focus on their hobbies etc.
I knew one kid, that was so hyperactive, he couldn't even sit long enough to beat super mario brothers level 1-1. Even if this kid wasn't in school, he would have still found ritalin a life saver.
Ideally, the drugs are not used to force the children to be a certain way, but rather used to help the child take charge of his or her future, whatever that may be.
In the severest cases of ADD, a person would be very unlikely to hold any job, simply because they lack the ability to plan anything out.
It is just like antipsychotics. They are often prescribed these days to help things much less than true psychosis. We don't even have the tools to identify what exactly is happeneing in the brain of the psychotic. But we're not going to deprive John Nash of cholopromazine simply because be don't know exactly how it works, or what is wrong with Nash to begin with.
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 18:06:11
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
> I'm not trashing the use of Ritalin per se, I'm questioning the diagnostic categories. Back when amphetamine was a decongestant in 1937, doctors found quite by accident that it calmed down "hyperactive" kids. However, "hyperactive" is a value judgement, and back then no one pretended that there was anything biologically wrong with the hyperactive kids--which is the notion I'm trashing. It is the NATURE of young children to be hyperactive! Sure, some kids perhaps have some biological abnormality in the brain. However, in using SPECT scans, one can never escape the value judgement of what is "normal" behavior. "Normal" with behavior, is ALWAYS social, and never medical. This is what I am opposing.
Any normative judgment whatsoever takes us out of the realm of 'science' as you are defining it. Personally the interest in SPECT scans escapes me. I KNOW there is something wrong with my nervous system. There is a normative element in biology that I would argue is irreducible. MY CNS makes it impossible to function properly in society, or even when in isolation, because my sleep/wake and appetitive cycles become distorted. The promising line in psychiatric research appears to be in identifying those whose genes dispose them to become depressed, ADD, schizophrenic, etc., just as certain genetic influences on animals (I am thinking of 'transgenic' mice whose NE transporters have been removed) causes them to be less disposed to exhibit behavioral deficits in learned helplessness experiments. Psychiatry will eventually become a branch of neurobiology, not a branch of neurology, which studies gross aberrations in brain macrostructure such as lesions.
>
> I am not opposing the use of drugs to help people live more functional and rewarding lives. If I opposed that in any way, you'd hardly find me trying my best to help people find the right medications. :)
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 21:51:48
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 18:06:11
The interest in spect scans was in re: linkadge's last post (although he said MRI, but I believe what he meant was SPECT, or fMRI).
I empathize with you, as I've always felt all my life that my CNS is broken. My life story is 99.44% the classic "inattentive ADD" life story. Without something like stimulants or desipramine--which thank God I stumbled upon because I'm now politically prohibited from taking stimulants due to a past drug problem--I cannot even come close to actualizing myself. There are psychological factors involved in my ADD strife as well, e.g. my lack of concentration becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not understand why everyone seems to think that my position is untenable if I recognize that these disorders exist.
I feel you are "explaining away" the existence of mind. You are no doubt aware of the philosophical distinction between mind and brain; you probably know a hell of a lot more about philosophy of science than I do, anyway. There are correlates between mind and brain, but ultimately we do not live in the brain, we live in the mind. Moreover, one can make a cogent argument that we do not possess the epistemic tools necessary to apprehend the mind-brain link and bridge the so-called "explanatory gap".
Psychiatry means "healing the soul". I do not understand how a discipline that heals the soul could ever be considered part of neurobiology. No psychiatric disorder exists in a biological vacuum: Patients with major depression with successful antidepressant outcomes and those with successful psychotherapy outcomes are known to undergo the same neural changes. Are you sure all that's at work here in your suffering and recovery are the medications? Believe me, I am all too aware of how seductive it is to look for an explanation for one's suffering in neurotransmitters and receptors. There is obviously a neurobiological substrate to it; there is a neurobiological substrate to all consciousness! Saying that one's suffering is wholly rooted in neurobiology is, in my view, just as mistaken as those counselors who kept steering you away from it, for there is always mind, and there is always brain.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 21:51:48
> The interest in spect scans was in re: linkadge's last post (although he said MRI, but I believe what he meant was SPECT, or fMRI).
>
> I empathize with you, as I've always felt all my life that my CNS is broken. My life story is 99.44% the classic "inattentive ADD" life story. Without something like stimulants or desipramine--which thank God I stumbled upon because I'm now politically prohibited from taking stimulants due to a past drug problem--I cannot even come close to actualizing myself. There are psychological factors involved in my ADD strife as well, e.g. my lack of concentration becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not understand why everyone seems to think that my position is untenable if I recognize that these disorders exist.
>
> I feel you are "explaining away" the existence of mind. You are no doubt aware of the philosophical distinction between mind and brain; you probably know a hell of a lot more about philosophy of science than I do, anyway. There are correlates between mind and brain, but ultimately we do not live in the brain, we live in the mind. Moreover, one can make a cogent argument that we do not possess the epistemic tools necessary to apprehend the mind-brain link and bridge the so-called "explanatory gap".
>
> Psychiatry means "healing the soul". I do not understand how a discipline that heals the soul could ever be considered part of neurobiology. No psychiatric disorder exists in a biological vacuum: Patients with major depression with successful antidepressant outcomes and those with successful psychotherapy outcomes are known to undergo the same neural changes. Are you sure all that's at work here in your suffering and recovery are the medications? Believe me, I am all too aware of how seductive it is to look for an explanation for one's suffering in neurotransmitters and receptors. There is obviously a neurobiological substrate to it; there is a neurobiological substrate to all consciousness! Saying that one's suffering is wholly rooted in neurobiology is, in my view, just as mistaken as those counselors who kept steering you away from it, for there is always mind, and there is always brain.
>
>
>
>
So far these postings have been above my understanding but getting the grasp of it. One thing that hasnt been addressed but may merely be my own feelings and opinions.. cant ADD be caused by the individual's upbringing. Suffering from depression myself, I blame myself for my son's disposition. Maybe it was the lack of my parenting skills that catapulted him in being symptomatic of ADD. Tho the pdoc didnt say to me or my son "he is ADD". But explained to us how ritalin will help him, giving examples of an ADD person.Maybe its not strictly my fault. I can track hereditary depression back to my great grandma, everyone after her has been symptomatic of it.. it runs on both of my grandparents sides. But then again, looking back, maybe it was the parenting itself that caused the persons child to developed a depressed personality, hence passing it down to their child, but their own depression effecting their parenting skills.
So tough to say if it was the person or the disease. Or both. If I remember correctly, it only seems in the last ten years or so that the label of ADD has been frequently used.. it seems to be more prevelant in families that either are a single parent or families that have less then a quality standard of living/cohabitating.
I've worked with ADD children at the preschool level and their families so I have a little understanding but one glove doesnt fit everyone I know.
For me personally, I've noticed my son's decline at two seperate occassions, first when I had started working more frequently (always been a single parent), which was also a the time when he entered the school system and also more recently when his dad was imprisoned 5 yrs ago.. since then with passing time, he has become increasingly more difficult. Symptomatic of ADD. I feel my lack of being able to emotionally deal with him, but I still try my best, that my weaknesses added to his illness.
So with both he and I having a difficult upbringing as children, is it a disease of the brain or the disease of a social society that brought us where we are today?
Posted by sl on June 4, 2004, at 10:34:41
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
> For me personally, I've noticed my son's decline at two seperate occassions, first when I had started working more frequently (always been a single parent), which was also a the time when he entered the school system and also more recently when his dad was imprisoned 5 yrs ago.. since then with passing time, he has become increasingly more difficult. Symptomatic of ADD. I feel my lack of being able to emotionally deal with him, but I still try my best, that my weaknesses added to his illness.
(I have a few things to add to this discussion but I wanted to first state that I'm depressive, with many symptoms of ADD either related to the depression or the meds I use to treat it.)
First, realize that during this time you are not the only thing in his life changing. He is growing up, hitting puberty, etc. The increase in problems with your son may have nothing to do with you. Puberty brings a big surge of hormones, remember, and this is also the point where society starts expecting more of him in terms of responsibility. It's not easy being a "young adult".
Second, have you thought about it the OTHER direction from "I'm causing it by not being there"?
Perhaps you being around helps him deal with his symptoms better. He has them all the time but when you're around you're able to give him enuf support that they aren't so obvious. I have friends like that, who can talk me out of a budding depression. I have my meds to keep me from going too far down, but the friends can help me live a more normal life.Third: Find yourself a support group!!! There are some, I'm sure you can find one to help you deal with these guilt issues.
> So with both he and I having a difficult upbringing as children, is it a disease of the brain or the disease of a social society that brought us where we are today?
>I agree with what was mentioned above: I think it's a case of the brain-functioning not matching the pressures of our society and the available social roles. Perhaps he would have made an excellent hunter. :/
I'm going to TRY to do some research into how other cultures deal with these sort of things.
I'm not sure how much is written but I'm going to find out.And finally, I agree you should give meds a try. I also think he should take it every day. Besides having better effects when taken regularly, his symptoms may be affecting his life in ways he can't even notice, hampering friendships, keeping him from learning things he really WANTS to learn (like sports maybe?), etc. And plus if he tries it and hates how it makes him feel, then maybe he'll be more willing to try the diet & exercise thing. (meanwhile, you can explore simple substitutions in things you make, whole wheat pastry flour and splenda both come to mind as easy painless ways to reduce processed white flour and sugar.)
Posted by Sad Panda on June 4, 2004, at 12:59:11
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
> One thing that hasnt been addressed but may merely be my own feelings and opinions.. cant ADD be caused by the individual's upbringing. Suffering from depression myself, I blame myself for my son's disposition.
>
>
>Don't blame yourself, he was most likely born with ADD. Things like ADD, BiPolar & the various Psychotic illnesses are most likely congenital IMHO. I think illness such as Unipolar depression, the various anxieties & PTSD are a mix of congenital pre-disposition & life events.
Cheers,
Panda.
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