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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:34:59
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:42:31
I would have SST (stereotactic subcaudate tractotomy) hands down before having ECT.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 11:09:30
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:34:59
Really? ....... I suppose that the damage is much more localised.
Ed
Posted by Peddidle on November 30, 2004, at 12:56:49
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:42:31
I found this website with a video that discusses ECT as well as shows an actual ECT treatment, and it--you can download it for free. I thought it was interesting...it's not at all scary to watch.
http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/departments/fuqua/patient_info/Electroconvulsive_Th.html
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 13:28:02
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by Peddidle on November 30, 2004, at 12:56:49
Hi,
Thank you for the link.
Ed.
Posted by vwoolf on November 30, 2004, at 13:34:22
In reply to Psychosurgery, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:05:02
I find this subject very disturbing. I have visited several other official national mental health websites about contemporary psychosurgery(I remember Canada and Australia particularly) and the general trend seems to advocating an increased use of this form of intervention.
It seems to me that so much of what happens in Psychiatry is done without understanding what actually happens or the dynamics of the human mind. Treatment is often very much at the same level as cold showers and straight jackets, but with a more scientific kind of label.
Posted by vwoolf on November 30, 2004, at 13:42:49
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:42:31
I underwent ECT in the late sixties. I was severely depressed as a result of incestuous childhood sexual abuse, and this was the first line of therapy that was indicated. To me it felt like an enormous punishment. I was seventeen and was not consulted - my mother signed off all the papers. It left me with a badly damaged memory, even today, of new events. I lost a lot of my longer term past memory. I was left apathetic and totally depressed as soon as I set foot back in my home environment. I feel very strongly that ECT should not be used except as a very last resort. It is invasive and abusive, and was in many ways worse than the original abuse that had caused my depression.
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 14:24:57
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by vwoolf on November 30, 2004, at 13:42:49
Hello vwoolf,
I am sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with ECT. I expect that being forced to have ECT would be very traumatic for almost everyone. Most psychiatrists still claim that ECT doesn't cause long-term memory loss. I think that they have clearly spent too much time listening to each other and not enough time listening to the views of their patients. At the moment, in England, people can be forced to have ECT if they have been 'sectioned' under the mental health act. It is not possible to force anyone to have psychosurgery. A few years ago I spoke to the psychiatrist in charge of ECT at my local hospital, I was shocked when he told me that ECT is no longer controversial. I sometimes wonder whether certain psychiatrists are more delusional than their patients!
What did you think of the MIND guide to ECT? In general, I have a high opinion of MIND because they concentrate on the beliefs of those who use the mental health system. They have a useful website.
Recently, the UK National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) reviewed the use of ECT. NICE is an organisation which controls the availability of drugs and other treatments on the National Health Service. Here is an extract from the press release.....
Setting standards for ECT use in England and Wales
The National Institute for Clinical Excellence has issued guidance on the use of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). In summary the guidance recommends that:
• ECT is used only to achieve rapid and short-term improvement of severe symptoms after other treatment options have failed and/or when the condition is considered to be potentially life-threatening, in individuals with:
• severe depressive illness
• catatonia
• a prolonged or severe manic episode.
• The decision to use ECT should be made jointly by the individual and the clinician(s) responsible for treatment, on the basis of an informed discussion.
• Valid consent should be obtained in all cases where the individual has the ability to grant or refuse consent. Consent should be obtained without pressure or coercion, and the individual should be reminded of their right to withdraw consent at any point.Apparantly, some psychiatrists were not happy with this advice because they felt that it would restrict the use of ECT.
Regarding psychosurgery, it is very rarely used in the UK at the moment. I wonder whether that will change?
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 14:37:51
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 11:09:30
The neurological dammage of ECT has been the subject of many studies. Some well respected and independant researchers found minimal dammage when the procedure was done in certain ways.
But to be honest I would prefer SST (psychosurgery) to ECT.
SST, in general is more effective than ECT, generally leaves no memory loss. Its effects on affective disorders are much longer lasting.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 15:06:28
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 14:37:51
.....I'd always be really scared to have psychosurgery because you can't reverse the effects.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Iansf on November 30, 2004, at 16:17:18
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:34:59
> I would have SST (stereotactic subcaudate tractotomy) hands down before having ECT.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
What exactly is that? Thanks.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 16:23:42
In reply to Re: Linkadge » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 15:06:28
"I'd always be really scared to have psychosurgery because you can't reverse the effects. "
Neither can the effects of ECT. (if things go wrong)
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 16:25:59
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy » linkadge, posted by Iansf on November 30, 2004, at 16:17:18
Basicacally it is a fairly advanced neurosurgery where they sever some of the connections between the caudate and the amygdala etc.
These certain parts of the brain are overactive in depression, and tame down in most people when AD's are taken. Contrary to popular belief, depression isn't because something isn't happening in the brain, but rather because too much is happening in certain areas.
Linkadge
Posted by jack smith on November 30, 2004, at 17:17:25
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 16:25:59
> These certain parts of the brain are overactive in depression, and tame down in most people when AD's are taken. Contrary to popular belief, depression isn't because something isn't happening in the brain, but rather because too much is happening in certain areas.
>Link, I think that is a slight overstatement. From what I understand, it can be either over-activity, under-activity, or, more likely, a combo of both. But really, most of this is relatively unsupported theory, and we are far, far away from knowing what the "cause" of depression is---I would bet it varies much with people and it certainly isn't limited to "physical" causes, certainly trauma at some point in life can be a "cause" for depression in some at least.
JACK
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 17:57:19
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy » linkadge, posted by jack smith on November 30, 2004, at 17:17:25
I agree with you that it isn't that clear cut,
and that depression tends to be a combination of overactivation and underactivation of certain brain regions.
We don't know all the causes but, we do know that most effective antidepressants, ECT, SST, Sleep deprivation, medication, exercise etc, all seem to activate the prefrontal cortex, and tame down the limbic system, amygdala, and caudate.
Linkadge
Posted by vwoolf on December 1, 2004, at 2:59:45
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:42:31
Hi Ed, thanks for the stimulating discussions you generate.
I have to admit that my response to articles about ECT is always emotional, so I am perhaps not a good person to judge the MIND site. On first reading it last night, it seemed to be a balanced article that was trying to present both sides of the argument without bias. In fact, I was vaguely under the impression that it was in favour of ECT. Rereading it in the light of day, I can see that it is in fact very cautious about promoting ECT - it actually seems to emphasise the idea that ECT causes brain damage, and is a rough, little understood, dangerous way of treating psychiatric distress. Or am I still not reading it right? Help!!!
I wish they would put the very clear warning that information needs to be full and exhaustive in bold characters - psychiatric patients (like me) find it difficult to take in information under emotionally charged circumstances, and I actually didn’t even notice these lines when I first read the article. The same applies to the fact that consent should not be given at once, but the patient should go away with written information about the procedure and be given time to think over the decision. Very often, as in my case, psychiatrists are eager to push their solution through without respecting all the protocol, and decisions are made far too lightly. The article is clearly and simply written for the layman.
The comment by the psychologist, Simon Green, that it is comparable to trying to fix a television set with a sledgehammer rings very true for me. It does cause brain damage, and I believe that a part of my life has been taken from me by the use of ECT, both in memories lost, and in my inability to remember things today. Before the ECT I had a very clear photographic memory. Today I battle to recognize people I have met many times, and can watch the same movie over and over as if I had never seen it before. The damage seems to be related only to visual memory fortunately, so it has not interfered with my studies or professional development to any great degree, but it is hampering nonetheless.
I notice that you have put the articles on ECT and Psychosurgery together. I agree that they have a great deal in common as being little understood, invasive, brutal methods of trying to make uncomfortable problems go away, regardless of the outcome for the person involved. I believe that ECT is still very common in the US. I have come across websites which make it possible to identify doctors who use this procedure as their first, and often only, method of treatment. Dr Shock himself is alive and well, and living somewhere in North America - was it in Philadelphia?
Warm regards.
Posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 9:08:48
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by vwoolf on December 1, 2004, at 2:59:45
Hi Vwoolf,
I put the articles about ECT and psychosurgery together because they are both physical treatments. I suppose that I should have posted the info about insulin coma in the same thread. As far as I know, about 10 000 people a year have ECT in the UK. Don't quote me on that because I didn't check! I think in the US it's about 100 000. Is that right?
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by JohnM4402 on December 1, 2004, at 11:55:13
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:42:31
I am having ECT done next month so I will have the chance to form my own opinion about it's effectiveness and side effects.
Posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 12:23:38
In reply to Re: Interesting Article » ed_uk, posted by JohnM4402 on December 1, 2004, at 11:55:13
Hi!
Good luck! Are you having ECT for depression or something else?
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by JohnM4402 on December 1, 2004, at 14:26:19
In reply to Re: Interesting Article » JohnM4402, posted by ed_uk on December 1, 2004, at 12:23:38
> Hi!
>
> Good luck! Are you having ECT for depression or something else?
>
> Regards,
> Ed.Yes, I am having it for treatment resistant depression. I am really looking forward to doing it. My doctor recomended me for it about a year ago but I only agreed to it recently because my depression has gone from bad to worse. Also one of the reasons I did not do ECT earlier was the amount of time I would need to take off work. I have told my boss that I will need at least 4 weeks off for a 'medical procedure'. My doctor at first told me I needed 6 weeks off but he says 4 may be enough depending on how I feel. I really wish I could go now and do the treatment but I decided to wait until I could finish the project I am working on for my Job in mid January. It would have caused problems with my work if I did this in the middle of a project.
Posted by Shalom34Israel on December 1, 2004, at 19:33:11
In reply to Psychosurgery, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 8:05:02
Psychosurgery is used by psychiatrists to control unruly patients who are unsatisfied with their psychiatric treatment. It does not treat the underlying mental illness. At present, scientists and psychiatrists do not understand the causes of serious mental illness.
Psychosurgery is NOT making any kind of serious comeback in the USA. In the UK, it may be another story but then again those people dont have the individual rights Americans have. In Australia, the original lobotomy is still legal, unfortunately.
Youve got to remember in these UK/British type countries they have a strong caste system and doctors are "authority figures" more than they are in America. Doctors in these countries can force treatments like psychosurgery more easily on patients than they can in America. In fact in America, its impossible to force a patient to have psychosurgery anymore. And has been since the early seventies. And things wont change here in the good ole USA either.
Psychosurgery is nothing but an infringement of individual civil rights plain and simple and doctors who perform it should be sent to prison. Its not tolerated in the USA and it shouldnt be tolerated anywhere. Its even outlawed in Russia!
Shalom
Posted by Shalom34Israel on December 1, 2004, at 19:50:34
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2004, at 10:34:59
> I would have SST (stereotactic subcaudate tractotomy) hands down before having ECT.
>
>
> Linkadge
>You have rocks for brains.
Shalom
Posted by Shalom34Israel on December 1, 2004, at 19:51:48
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2004, at 11:09:30
> Really? ....... I suppose that the damage is much more localised.
>
> Eddont listen to this fruitcake guy linkage or whatever the hell his name is. He's an idiot.
Shalom
Posted by jujube on December 1, 2004, at 20:23:49
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by Shalom34Israel on December 1, 2004, at 19:51:48
> > Really? ....... I suppose that the damage is much more localised.
> >
> > Ed
>
> dont listen to this fruitcake guy linkage or whatever the hell his name is. He's an idiot.
>
> ShalomYour messages would be taken more seriously and appreciated if you could learn to be respectful, civil and a bit more humane. People who have to resort to name calling have never been, nor will they ever be, effective orators. PLEASE BE NICE.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2004, at 22:12:03
In reply to Re: MIND guide to Electroconvulsive therapy, posted by Shalom34Israel on December 1, 2004, at 19:51:48
Dear Shalom,
I find your posting name interesting given your apparent posting style. I am posting to you to invite you to review the civility guidelines in the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
before posting again.I like and respect Linkadge as a fellow member of this community. I found myself saddened by your posts about him, and I would like to ask you to avoid such posts in the future.
Regards,
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 2, 2004, at 0:59:47
In reply to Suggestion for Shalom34Israel » Shalom34Israel, posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2004, at 22:12:03
> I am posting to you to invite you to review the civility guidelines in the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> before posting again.I appreciate the civil responses, thanks. But I'd like any further follow-ups regarding these issues to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Bob
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