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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
Although most every professional you talk to regarding assertiveness will tell you assertiveness is something you have to practice and learn and thats it and thats all, and I agree to a some degree. but its clear that some children are basically born unassertive, withdraw alot, are quiet, etc.. My little bro is and i apparently was. Being assertive to me feels like a crime, and is almost impossible to practice. I find benzos can help a bit, at least allow me to practice more and that hypersensitivety to rejection and that youre being an asshole for standing up for yourself are somewhat less, but then i just go back to myold self after the effects wane and think i cant do whatever unless im benzoed up. Now if you are born like this can simple therapy and personal change type messures be enough or is my momentary belief correct that you cant do alot when youre brain wont let you? (Like telling a schizophrenic that they should practice stopping to hallucenate) Maybe thinking that I cant change this passivity is greatly impeding it my natural progress? then what do I do? Maybe forcing myself to do this will desensitize me, tho in the past whenever I try this i feel much worse, and only end up feeling like I just murdered their family.
Anyway Ill stop the what ifs and hope that anyone else will have some thoughts. thanks!
Tom
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 3:31:24
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
Hi Tom,
I'm no expert on psychological therapies so I won't comment on that! In terms of medication, you might find that Nardil or Parnate could make you more assertive and reduce your rejection sensitivity.
Best Wishes,
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 6:36:11
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
You make an interesting point, you might find the books of Elaine Aron interesting in this respect.
Citalopram ( celexa in the US) has definitely made me more assertive, so much so that I have had to reduce the dose twice as I was becoming very aggressive.
How? probably by increasing the fronta lobes , literally their size!
Effects - no blushing, less concern for others feelings (which is good when you had my massive overconcern), and less obsessing, or at least the ability to use cognitive tecniques to stop them , when previously CBT was useless.
Certainly less rejection sensitivity, ie days to cope with a rejection, instead of months of brooding, etc.
The bottom line seems to me that If you have simply not learned the skills maybe just therapy will help.
If you are hindered by as you say some genetic predisposition, as I certainly was ( used to put paper bags over my head and hide if a stranger came to my house)you may need a helping hand first. Whether this lasts post helping hand is another question!!Glenn
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:37:33
In reply to Re: assertiveness and meds, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 6:36:11
..... What do you think? .....I think SSRIs make me a bit more selfish and reduce my concern for others. Perhaps they can reduce empathy? I think this is an important question to address. Personally, SSRI have much less impact on my personality than benzos. Benzos make me positively nasty! As always, YMMV. Would the world be a more caring place without SSRI? It's interesting how we have drugs that reduce emotion but we don't have any drugs that turn sociopaths into 'nice' people!!!
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:39:04
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
Sorry, I know my last post wasn't relevent to you at all. I got a bit 'carried away'!
Best Wishes,
Ed.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:24:53
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
Boosting serotonin gives people more of an alpha male mentality. High serotonin levels are associated with social dominance. Whether either being on the top or bottom is a good thing is a matter of preference.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
I might add that people who have something "wrong" with their serotonin system have poor social lives. If your serotonin levels are too low you'll be one of those rejects who are cast aside. On the other hand, you'll have lots of time to ruminate, philosophize, and spend time with yourself. That's if hyperactivity of your frontal lobes can compensate. It could be to your advantage.
That's just a broad generalization that may or may not be technically correct. My basic point is different states of mind have their advantages.
Everybody has their place in my opinion.I think a lot of the times people don't want to live with themsevles. They see all these ideal images on tv. All these happy people making cash and working in high-class jobs. People don't even use the meds for clinical depression or serious anxiety all the time. Life's too fast these days. No room for the eccentrics. Slowly but surely the new eugenics movement is creeping up on us.
Therapy does change the brain. It does it better than drugs too. It actually rewires the brain.
If a certain part of your brain lights up when it's faced with certain situations, therapy can actually change this. In fact I read an article that said depression itself had more to do with wiring then just an imbalance of neurotransmitters. Here a very strong example of how your mind can actually have a huge influence on the brain. There was a study done where buddhist monks were put through a bunch of brain scans. They found that they consistently had higher levels of activity in their left prefrontal lobes. There was also a general increase in activity in the frontal lobes.http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html
- this is a good site for meditations effects on the brain.
http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/EJ141/ej141j.htm - I haven't read this yet, but it's on Medication and Brain Function.Everybody's has certain traits that personal experiences, and self-psychological mending can influence. Gradually society's net that's used to catch what's unacceptable is getting bigger and the quick-fix of medications is also being used more and more. GPs are handing SSRIs out like candy. I'm not denying the existance of clinical depression or any severe form of brain dysfunction but I am saying that it's getting easier and easier to get a mental illnesss diagnosis and be given drugs as a solution.
And the drugs do more than fix isolated symptoms. Using your mind will.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:03:24
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
I appologize in advance for the phrase
"if your serotonin levels are too low you'll be one of those rejects..."
What I meant was:
"If your serotonin levels are low you'll be rejected more often".
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
You will have to speak for yourself I am afraid.
I am a trained councellor, did a 5 year psychotherapy training and had 30 sessions of CBT, none of which did me a fraction of the good that drugs have.
However I would not put down anyone who has got more from therapy, we are all very different, one of the joys and frustrations of human beings.
Neither path is without its problems, I could put forward a devastating critisism of therapy, but what would be the point if it genuinely helps some people.
Please do not suggest that anyones path to a healthier mind is in some way lesser than another, just be happy that someone, like me has found a way out of this awful illness, and genetic endowment!Glenn
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:30:55
In reply to Re: Do SSRIs make people less caring?, posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:37:33
They generally reduce activity in the frontal lobes while increasing it in the prefrontal area.
I think. The prefrontal lobes are associated with executive function. OCD is related to hyperactivity in the frontal lobes and SSRIs treat it so I'm guessing that lowering activity in the frontal lobes ( except pfc ) is true.I think this might be true also since dopamine and serotonin have a reciprocal balance, and dopamine neurons are present in high numbers in the frontal lobes but serotonin neurons aren't.
Of couse, I dunno how this works. I can tell you one thing, when I read listening to prozac I gasped at the changes in peoples personalities. Were there frontal lobes lighting up or shutting down? Were they happy cause they were number and less concerned? Or were they happy because before they were numb and depressed and while their true personality was hidden?
I read somewhere that the frontal lobes are the seat of our personality.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:35:33
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
I was not denying the existance of true mental illness - those conditions which can only be treated physically.
Posted by jclint on December 5, 2004, at 9:51:40
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
Glenn, what are the drugs you talk about that have helped you?
John
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 10:12:16
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society? » glenn, posted by jclint on December 5, 2004, at 9:51:40
Xanax - calmed down (and continues to do so when needed as long as it is used in the anti inflammatory method)an inflamed system.
Celexa/ citalporam - great for me as a cosmetic psychopharmaceutical ( ie personality changer for in the main the good)
Propranolol - killed agonising headaches dead when nothing else would.
In addition , daily meditation, tai chi, exercise and cbt when needed.
The latter are for me far less effective than the drugs but I now only use 5mg celexa, 80 mg propranolol xr and xanax once every 4-5 weeks as needed to calm and reset the system (Dr Shipkos idea)
Hope this helpsGlenn xxx
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 10:25:58
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 10:12:16
I did not mean to imply that legitamate use of antidepressants in real cases of illness was wrong, if that's the impression you got.
did you have a look at the ed's question?
Posted by Racer on December 5, 2004, at 10:36:25
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
I've found that therapy does help, as does having my depression in remission, and having my anxiety within normal limits. Yes, while you're first practicing being more assertive, saying no, etc, it will feel cruel. Personally, I never feel as if I've murdered anyone's family, though -- just as though I've kicked their dog :-P
For me, the anti depressant drugs have made it possible for the therapy to help me learn new behaviors. So, I can't say that one or the other alone is enough, because they weren't for me. I've needed both.
Hope that helps.
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 12:34:28
In reply to Re: med list. » glenn, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 10:25:58
That's ok I think I know what you meant so you can allow yourself a break from the ruminating (lol!!)
I agree with you that if you have a shyness/low serotonin/lack of confidence/ (my belief)over reactive nervous system you may wel end up having lots of time to ruminate/ think/ sulk/ brood etc, but hey if an ssri helps a lot with this and its benefits outweigh its disadvantages is that so bad?
Thats why I stay on 5 mg of Celexa , nothuing else ever worked as well , just like the xanax, and for that matter the propranolol.
Guess I must be a pharmacuetical junkie!
But it sure beats having all the therapists telling one that you don't want to get better/ have more underlying issues and all the other rationalisations that are often used when therapy is not effective - and all the alternative practitioners whose claims are as broad as the oceans but do not of course offer a refund!Keep Well
Glenn
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2004, at 12:48:02
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
> that hypersensitivety to rejection and that youre being an [*]sshole for standing up for yourself are somewhat less
Please don't use language that could offend others. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 12:51:35
In reply to Re: med list., posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 12:34:28
Obsessive rumination can be an asset, not so much if it becomes brooding. I wouldn't appreciate it if a therapist invalidated me like that either.
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 13:16:01
In reply to Re: med list. » glenn, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 12:51:35
The problem is that if therapy is not working, they (therapists) do not appear to have much else to offer.
Take CBT for example, if thoughts lead to feelings , then if the process to change your thoughts isnt working, as you originated the thoughts it must be you blocking/ preventing their change. No good therapist would say this of course but it is clearly implicit in the theory.
Now that Le Doux has proven the thoughts / feelings idea to be incorrect, at least some of the time ,there will have been many people treated with an innapropriate therapy and who were probably made to feel worse by the very theoretical assumption of the therapy.
Therapy is fine as long as the therapist is open to other stratagems and not so blinkered by their own theoretical structure as to be unable to accept that the therapy itself may be the problem.( ie that its unsuitablilty is part of what is stopping improvement)
Glenn
Posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
In reply to Re: med list., posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 13:16:01
thanks for the fast response. thats excellent! I would try the listed drugs, except the problem is that Ive already tried all the drugs listed. Could it be that i have an insanely high tolerance (celexa 60mgs a day for 2 months, effexor 225mgs a day for long time, parnate 50mgs day for at least as long.) Ive kinda come to conclude that drugs dont and wont work for me, yet it would make sense that they would which has left me quite frustrated to say the least. I was thingking of asking my doc for high dose nardil, but now i dont know....
Which is why I am very interested in the idea of meditation after reading lostforwords post. i defintly saved those links. see the very orderly and scientific means of describing something normally outside of science was very helpful cause normally all you ever see is drugs effects in scientific studies. Specifically the desciption of each brain system was very helpful. How do you medititate though? Any recomended books, methods, anything? I would be very interested. thank you all.
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 15:24:26
In reply to Re: appropriate therapies, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
Did you see the posts by Chairman_MAO where he was telling us that he got a really good anxiolytic effect from 200mg Parnate!!!!!
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 15:55:22
In reply to Re: appropriate therapies, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
xanax was my 26th drug !!
So don't worry you probably have a lot left before you get to my stage.
Jensens system if you found a cooperative doc might shorten the process for you (wish I had gone 3 years earlier). His point is that the right medication if found acts very quickly and in low doses.
As far as meditation goes there are as many approaches as there are drugs, its just the same really you just have to find the one that suits you best.
My tip would be to try a deep relaxation / meditation/ hypnosis tape , there are plenty on ebay for a couple of dollars.
It is helpful for me as a system stabiliser, but if I go into overdrive only xanax works, then again I know 2 poeople for whom it appears to have been a virtual cure for their anxiety - took 3-5 weeks however ( heard that somewhere before!)Good Luck
Glenn
Posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
In reply to Re: Do SSRIs make people less caring?, posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:37:33
I think you're right. SSRIs make people less caring and less empathetic (if you think about it's exactly the same thing that 'less sensible to rejection').
You can find plenty of articles on this subject. Some time ago I used to obsess myself about this issue and I started looking for stuff that supported my opinions. I also read Dr. Breggin's book a guy who stresses a lot the fact that SSRIs can make you more selfish and less caring. But, you know, world can be difficult for us crazy guys, and you know, selfishness is often well rewarded in our society. Freak and looser or jerk and winner, this has been my dilemma.
I think assertiveness is just a step behind aggressiveness. That is to say that too much serotonin, so to say, can make you an asshole but just a little more serotonin can make you self confident. It's a matter of degrees, I suppose.
Posted by glenn on December 6, 2004, at 17:12:08
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
I could not agree more!
Glenn
Posted by Anjul on December 8, 2004, at 6:52:45
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
Yeah, they make you less caring! thank God! I used to lie awake at night torturing myself over everything I said to people, and worrying about how they took it. Like Glenn, I did qi gong, meditiation, acupuncture everything and was living in depression, anxiety, self-hatred until I went on 10 mg Lexapro last year. I had tried other meds years ago and just believed that this was my cross to bear in life. Fortunately, a therapist convinved me to try Lex!
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