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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by capricorn on November 1, 2006, at 14:23:42
At what point does one say that drug therapy is of insufficient
benefit and not the best treatment choice?
I have been on 2.5 mgs of olanzapine since the first week in September and i don't think it has made much difference.
Even when i was on 10 mgs it was definitely better than nothing
but it was more a case of reduction of symptoms than total remission.I couldn't say for example that when taking 10mgs olanzapine x symptoms stopped but more like x symptom were milder/less frequent ie toned down but not eliminated.
With something like sz or bipolar and major depression medication is the definite main stay of treatment but when you are dxed with a vague 'personality
disorder' which encompasses elements of borderline,paranoid,schizotypal,avoidant then you are left wondering how much is brain chemistry and how much is just
'you being you'.
Especially when symptoms are still present to some degree when you are on meds.
It's hard to decide whether one is actually ill or just a
person of 'chronically inadequate character' polluting the human gene pool.
Posted by bassman on November 1, 2006, at 17:09:52
In reply to Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 1, 2006, at 14:23:42
This is what happens when there are so many AD advertisements that have people skipping through fields of clover after taking Zoloft, et. al. My experience with panic disorder is like yours: with meds,the PD is still there, just attenuated. I'll bet if I took enough meds, I could pretty much make it go away, and myself as a person with them. But it does sound like you are pretty down on yourself...come on! If you have a personality disorder, you're supposed to be happy, and when something goes wrong, it's one of us *ssholes in the external world!:>} Seriously, please don't be so hard on yourself...
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2006, at 19:50:56
In reply to Re: Discouraged, posted by bassman on November 1, 2006, at 17:09:52
Good advise from Bassman. And seriously any improvement would make me happy. Love Phillipa
Posted by ronaldo on November 2, 2006, at 7:32:06
In reply to Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 1, 2006, at 14:23:42
> At what point does one say that drug therapy is of insufficient
> benefit and not the best treatment choice?
> I have been on 2.5 mgs of olanzapine since the first week in September and i don't think it has made much difference.
> Even when i was on 10 mgs it was definitely better than nothing
> but it was more a case of reduction of symptoms than total remission.I couldn't say for example that when taking 10mgs olanzapine x symptoms stopped but more like x symptom were milder/less frequent ie toned down but not eliminated.
> With something like sz or bipolar and major depression medication is the definite main stay of treatment but when you are dxed with a vague 'personality
> disorder' which encompasses elements of borderline,paranoid,schizotypal,avoidant then you are left wondering how much is brain chemistry and how much is just
> 'you being you'.
> Especially when symptoms are still present to some degree when you are on meds.
> It's hard to decide whether one is actually ill or just a
> person of 'chronically inadequate character' polluting the human gene pool.Hi Capricorn,
I'm sorry but I don't understand... You were on 2.5 mg and now you are on 10 mg. Is there a typo here? Did you mean 25 mg? Twenty-five mgs is a big dose....20 mg is usually the top dose.
Maybe talking therapy would be better for you? If you can find a good threrapist.
....ronaldo
Posted by ronaldo on November 2, 2006, at 7:36:58
In reply to Re: Discouraged » capricorn, posted by ronaldo on November 2, 2006, at 7:32:06
Posted by capricorn on November 2, 2006, at 7:43:12
In reply to Re: Discouraged » capricorn, posted by ronaldo on November 2, 2006, at 7:32:06
>
> Hi Capricorn,
>
> I'm sorry but I don't understand... You were on 2.5 mg and now you are on 10 mg. Is there a typo here? Did you mean 25 mg? Twenty-five mgs is a big dose....20 mg is usually the top dose.
>
> Maybe talking therapy would be better for you? If you can find a good threrapist.
>I was on ten mg at one point which worked quite well symptoms wise but due to looking after a vascularly demented wife and the fact it zonked me out i couldn't take it regularly.
I was then taken off all meds for just over a year
until beginning of September this year when i was put on 2.5 mgs of olanzapine(which is a low dose).
>
>
Posted by ronaldo on November 2, 2006, at 8:42:57
In reply to Re: Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 2, 2006, at 7:43:12
>
> >
> > Hi Capricorn,
> >
> > I'm sorry but I don't understand... You were on 2.5 mg and now you are on 10 mg. Is there a typo here? Did you mean 25 mg? Twenty-five mgs is a big dose....20 mg is usually the top dose.
> >
> > Maybe talking therapy would be better for you? If you can find a good threrapist.
> >
>
> I was on ten mg at one point which worked quite well symptoms wise but due to looking after a vascularly demented wife and the fact it zonked me out i couldn't take it regularly.
> I was then taken off all meds for just over a year
> until beginning of September this year when i was put on 2.5 mgs of olanzapine(which is a low dose).Hi Capricorn,
I have had experience with olanzapine at 2.5 mg and 5 mg and 10 mg. First took it 4 years ago for insomnia. 2.5 mg gave me a good 8 hours, 5 mg knocked me out for 12 hours, but that was 4 years ago. Now, today, 10 mg gives me 7 hours if I am lucky. But I must say I like the 10 mg olanzapine. After a good night's sleep I feel more like my old self again. I am bipolar.
I am sorry to hear about your wife. It must be hard for you. I also look after my own wife who has a long and complicated history of bowel cancer; permanent ileostomy, lots of pain medication, near constant hot water bottles.Zyprexa also do a 7.5 mg tablet as well as the 2.5 and the 5 and the 10. Why not try the 5 mg or the 7.5 mg? It sounds like it works for you so you should get some benefit from a slightly higher dose. You could even buy a pill cutter for a pound or two and customize your tablets to suit yourself. Do you live in the States? or in the UK?
It sounds like olanzapine can help you. I hope so. I know its hard with an invalid wife - the doctor is really treating two people, you and your wife who is dependent on you. Good luck.
....Alan
Posted by Racer on November 2, 2006, at 10:53:19
In reply to Re: Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 2, 2006, at 7:43:12
>
> I was on ten mg at one point which worked quite well symptoms wise but due to looking after a vascularly demented wife and the fact it zonked me out i couldn't take it regularly.
>That's got to take a lot out of you, and leave you feeling pretty flat even without any other issues. Have you thought about talk therapy and a support group to help you cope with the strain? Honestly, I think even if you had the Magic Pill that would fix all the rest, you'd still probably need at least one of those things.
As for the personality disorder bit, I gotta agree with BassMan -- don't be so hard on yourself. These days, some of the recent studies are saying that Axis I disorders are much more stable over time than the Axis II PDs, which tend to improve on their own over time. But, of course, the PDs would improve more quickly with talk therapy...
Good luck to you.
Posted by capricorn on November 2, 2006, at 12:55:40
In reply to Re: Discouraged » capricorn, posted by Racer on November 2, 2006, at 10:53:19
Just to correct a small point.My wife(previously mentioned) died 14 months ago.
Posted by deniseuk190466 on November 2, 2006, at 16:55:15
In reply to Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 1, 2006, at 14:23:42
No don't say that. You are NOT a 'chronically inadequate character' polluting the human gene pool.
I say this because if meds had never worked for me in the past I would have thought the same thing about myself. But I do know that when they work they can make you feel so much better and you realise that you weren't imagining just how bad you felt. It's like you only know just how bad you felt and the suffering you had to endure when you experience the total relief of it.
The drugs you are taking are not helping you by the sounds of it but that doesn't make this YOUR fault. Keep trying other things until you get total relief and don't ever blame yourself for this.
My Doctor tried to imply I had a personality disorder when I told him the drugs weren't working the second time around, like before I had depression which is why they worked and now all of a sudden I have a Personality disorder. Doesn't quite add up somehow.
Read Martha Manning's book "undercurrents" one thing she says is that people seem to insinuate that if only you did this or that or thought this or that then you would get better, like it's somehow in your control. She was a psychotherapist, once a hard working loving, caring professional and even she fell fowl of depression. I'm sure nobody ever accused her of the things you are accusing yourself of. You are not any of those things you just feel that you are because you are suffering.
Denise
Posted by deniseuk190466 on November 2, 2006, at 17:08:14
In reply to Re: Discouraged, posted by capricorn on November 2, 2006, at 7:43:12
I defy anyone who hasn't had a full response to an antidepressant not to say that the pill they are taking is anything but a "magic pill".
When antidepressants work properly then they are magic pills, admittedly they can't help with circumstance or personal situation problems, or grief or problems of abuse but they can completely turn your life around when they work and when you have depression with no known present cause.
I tried therapy years ago, and frankly I felt patronised by it. I spent a whole year talking to somebody but at the end of the day it was the medication that helped me not the talking.
I admit that there may have been problems from my childhood that might have contributed to my problems with depression but talking about them doesn't solve anything. What's the point of dredging up the past all the time, I'd rather just not think about them. Anyone (non-depressed people) could find problems in their childhood if they looked hard enough.
Denise
Denise
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 12:31:56
In reply to There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by deniseuk190466 on November 2, 2006, at 17:08:14
I disagree, I think there are no magic pills. Nobody would say amphetamines, or crack are magic. They can make you feel good for a very short while, but its not magic, its just fooling your brain.
Antidepressants are the same. Admittedly they may work for a little longer, but sooner or later, they will poop out. They're just fooling your brain into thinking you're better.
Linkadge
Posted by deniseuk190466 on November 3, 2006, at 14:08:46
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 12:31:56
Linkadge,
I'm not saying they're are a cure I'm just saying when they work it feels like magic and you can go on feeling non-depressed for years.
I get a bit peeved when I see people saying that there is no such thing as a magic pill because it's a discouraging thing to say, it's like saying "you just have to get on with it, carry on struggling and living half a life (if that) and stop trying to find something that works".
Denise
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 18:07:00
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by deniseuk190466 on November 3, 2006, at 14:08:46
In my opinnion drugs are not going to work long term. I'm not saying give up on trying to get better, or give up hope that you'll get better, I just think too many people waste too much time and put too much hope in drugs. Its usually based on a few good moments on them.
My mother, my friend, you, phillipa, my mother, SLS, and a whole lot of others. Its the same story, take drug, brain adapts, keep looking for that initial positive effect.
Thats just the way I see it. I know its a depressing view.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2006, at 18:27:23
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 18:07:00
Link from what my experiences with ad's have been I agree with that but the benzos do still do something. Better than nothing. I take it you Mom isn't doing any better. I'm sorry Link. Love Phillipa
Posted by Racer on November 3, 2006, at 20:09:02
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 18:07:00
> In my opinnion drugs are not going to work long term. I'm not saying give up on trying to get better, or give up hope that you'll get better, I just think too many people waste too much time and put too much hope in drugs. Its usually based on a few good moments on them.
>
>What do you recommend instead? You say you're not saying to give up on trying to get better, but that you don't think the meds are going to be the answer. What do you recommend instead of the meds, then?
I look forward to reading your response.
Posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2006, at 20:17:46
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill. » linkadge, posted by Racer on November 3, 2006, at 20:09:02
Link a combo of theraphy and excercise and vitamins? Love Phillipa What else is there? Other than meds?
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 10:35:06
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2006, at 20:17:46
Theres no rule that says that in order to insult conventional treamtnets need to provide a functioning alternative :)
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 5, 2006, at 17:59:17
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 10:35:06
So you have no answer? Love Phillipa
Posted by Sebastian on November 7, 2006, at 11:59:42
In reply to There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by deniseuk190466 on November 2, 2006, at 17:08:14
I was never into the talk therapy either. Infact I stoped seeing that doctor very quikly, and decided only the meds will work. The funny thing about talk therapy is that they avoid the past, and try to tell you how to live your life, wether you agree or not. They don't let you talk, and if they do they have no good advice. I'm angree about the way I was treated in the past and all the doctor could say was look at the prety day out side.
By the way zyprexa is the magic pill. Taking it for 9 years. it totaly makes me feel good, and has turned my life around.
Posted by Sebastian on November 7, 2006, at 12:15:13
In reply to Re: There is such a thing as a magic pill., posted by linkadge on November 3, 2006, at 12:31:56
Zyprexa never pooped out on me yet, I've been taking it for 9 years. I don't think it ever will.
I'll bet there are a lot of people who think crack is a magic pill.
Is it better to fool your brain and be happy or to not fool your brain and be unhappy.
This is the end of the thread.
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