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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
Why is it impossible to achieve a pleasant sense of calm?
The doctor is like, you want to calm down?, take an antipsychotic.
Antipsychotic calm is a bad calm. Its a horrible ickey feeling of having lost control over ones life. Feeling ineffectual.
What ever happened to Soma from "Brave New World". You know a good, wholesome all puprose chill pill.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 17, 2007, at 19:38:09
In reply to Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
Link I so agree with you. Phillipa
Posted by cumulative on November 17, 2007, at 22:14:48
In reply to Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
Red wine? :)
Posted by your#1fan on November 17, 2007, at 23:06:32
In reply to Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
i agree. Lithium, Thorazine, i swear i've seen it used in movies (not that its not like this in real life) but its HORRIBLE. I mean the life is taken away, people just stare out the window with no emotion!
Linkagde, i really wish you would come down here to the southern part of america. They treat you better than they would in canada.
Haldol from what i've seen calm's you down but it definetly you want to get ready for feeling nothing!
Link i think that anything with GABA wise related medication such as benzodiapines (with the exeption of clonazepam, its good but it makes you feel horrible) barbiturates, some antiepliptics like Lamictal.
Are you talking about a sedated calm, or a pleasant calm? or dulled calm. They all have diffrent catagories, phenothroizes are a dulled calm. Pleasant calm would be maybe Vicodin? (excuse me Vicodin, any opiates are not for anxiety but they give you a calm) a sedated calm would be like Valium, Xanax, klonopin, those just give you relief from stress.
Im i have to reveal something, i've seen people on antipsychotics. At low doses there ok, but higher doses are miserable. They block nuerotransmitters causing you to feel basically "nothing".
Call your doctor more and explain that antipsychotics cause life to not be able to live.
is your doctor "benzophobic"?
you caugth my attention when i saw this.
I've been on both benzo, and antipsycotic. I think a combination of both is the best.
Your#1fan
Posted by yxibow on November 18, 2007, at 2:04:57
In reply to Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
> Why is it impossible to achieve a pleasant sense of calm?
>
> The doctor is like, you want to calm down?, take an antipsychotic.
>
> Antipsychotic calm is a bad calm. Its a horrible ickey feeling of having lost control over ones life. Feeling ineffectual.
>
> What ever happened to Soma from "Brave New World". You know a good, wholesome all puprose chill pill.
Its still around, it is unscheduled (!) and a derivative of Miltown, from the benzo-copy days. It is definately habituating although I must admit that it was the only thing that penetrated the scalp muscles and relieved an odd 10 year going on benzo sudden pitch event. Unfortunately I can't take it with Valium. Its poor distant cousin Robaxin though I can take.It depends entirely upon what kind of antipsychotic though -- admittedly phenothiazines affect people quite dramatically through strong akathisia. Seroquel doesn't have this effect for most people though blunting is always a possible result of neuroleptic use.
Opiates -- well, the same but far stronger than the comment for Soma, I mean if you want to chill out on percocet, cartoons become ridiculously funny (wisdom tooth surgery), but acclimation sets in quickly.
Same can be said for Kava and Valerian, which for me (pure extract) give a headache or stomach ache after use.
And then there's ethanol, which brings sleep interruption, hangovers, and ultimately alcohol poisoning. Of course moderation is always the key.
No free lunch ultimately or we would be a society of a brave new world. Or maybe we wouldn't be taking anything because we could all achieve calm through zen. A thought to ponder.
Posted by linkadge on November 18, 2007, at 9:39:51
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » linkadge, posted by yxibow on November 18, 2007, at 2:04:57
Yeah, kava was good. Probably what I was looking for, yet they pulled it.
Linkadge
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on November 18, 2007, at 13:26:39
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by your#1fan on November 17, 2007, at 23:06:32
>Linkagde, i really wish you would come down here to the southern part of america. They treat you better than they would in canada.
Please don't overgeneralize, and please be sensitive to the feelings of others, such as Canadians who may be involved with providing treatment in Canada.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by yxibow on November 18, 2007, at 13:31:40
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 18, 2007, at 9:39:51
> Yeah, kava was good. Probably what I was looking for, yet they pulled it.
>
> LinkadgeI guess that's the difference in regulation across the pond. I still wouldn't take a liquigel cap more than once or twice a week if I wanted to use it, it does have liver consequences.
Posted by cactus on November 20, 2007, at 21:43:25
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » linkadge, posted by yxibow on November 18, 2007, at 13:31:40
well it's good old benzo's for me, I'm just in the middle of coming off 150mg of Zoloft cold turkey, why prolong the bloody pain of tapering, I say, and 62.5mg of seroquel. Zoloft was great at first then it made me very angry so they added seroquel which pushed me over the edge. I hate that icky feeling from AP's. Now I'm just riding out the brain zaps for the next week or so, then back off to work for me. Link if you are in canada I know you can get mogadon, I just don't know if they allow it as a sleep med like they do here in Australia and the UK. I think it might be rx'ed for epilepsy. Check it out, it will be the best sleep you ever get and you will feel so calm the next day. With it's 28hr half life
Posted by yxibow on November 21, 2007, at 12:37:34
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by cactus on November 20, 2007, at 21:43:25
> well it's good old benzo's for me, I'm just in the middle of coming off 150mg of Zoloft cold turkey, why prolong the bloody pain of tapering, I say, and 62.5mg of seroquel. Zoloft was great at first then it made me very angry so they added seroquel which pushed me over the edge. I hate that icky feeling from AP's. Now I'm just riding out the brain zaps for the next week or so, then back off to work for me. Link if you are in canada I know you can get mogadon, I just don't know if they allow it as a sleep med like they do here in Australia and the UK. I think it might be rx'ed for epilepsy. Check it out, it will be the best sleep you ever get and you will feel so calm the next day. With it's 28hr half life
Whether its allowed or not you really don't want a sleep medication, benzodiazepine or not to have more than a day's half life. Sure, you'll feel calm for a while but it'll catch up with you and you could run off the road or something. Short half life, short hangover are best if you absolutely need something to sleep.
Posted by cactus on November 21, 2007, at 16:31:01
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » cactus, posted by yxibow on November 21, 2007, at 12:37:34
I don't know if you've tried it but it's not like that. The feeling the next day is like a mild valium effect. The hypnotic effect wears off after 8-10 hours then it just leaves you feeling relaxed. Nothing a strong cup of coffee can't fix in the morning after a shower. I do see you your initial concern though. It's not an all day zombie med but it does take a couple of days to to get use to.
Posted by yxibow on November 22, 2007, at 16:07:50
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » yxibow, posted by cactus on November 21, 2007, at 16:31:01
> I don't know if you've tried it but it's not like that. The feeling the next day is like a mild valium effect. The hypnotic effect wears off after 8-10 hours then it just leaves you feeling relaxed. Nothing a strong cup of coffee can't fix in the morning after a shower. I do see you your initial concern though. It's not an all day zombie med but it does take a couple of days to to get use to.
The shower is a good idea, the coffee is sort of chasing rainbows, which I must admit I do too as of late -- valium and fatigue, coffee, more valium and fatigue, coffee.
Nitrazepam is not available in North America so I can't "try" it. The nitrazepam series of benzodiazepines have particularly habituating properties (including Rohypnol). Coffee may mask an underlying road hazard.
But if you're stable on it (you will habituate eventually), go ahead.
Posted by cactus on November 22, 2007, at 17:49:25
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » cactus, posted by yxibow on November 22, 2007, at 16:07:50
Nitrazepam is not available in North America so I can't "try" it. The nitrazepam series of benzodiazepines have particularly habituating properties (including Rohypnol). Coffee may mask an underlying road hazard.
But if you're stable on it (you will habituate eventually), go ahead.
You're right about becoming stable on it, it's not as hardcore as rohypnol but it's no more habituating than valium and it is available in canada, I checked. It's not as bad as you might think, I wish you were able to try it so you could see. It really is amazing with it's sedative properties the next day. You do make good points out of concern though, which is always a good thing in my book. I find it a remarkable drug that can switch from hypnotic to sedative the next day.
Posted by yxibow on November 23, 2007, at 12:17:37
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » yxibow, posted by cactus on November 22, 2007, at 17:49:25
> Nitrazepam is not available in North America so I can't "try" it. The nitrazepam series of benzodiazepines have particularly habituating properties (including Rohypnol). Coffee may mask an underlying road hazard.
>
> But if you're stable on it (you will habituate eventually), go ahead.
>
> You're right about becoming stable on it, it's not as hardcore as rohypnol but it's no more habituating than valium and it is available in canada, I checked. It's not as bad as you might think, I wish you were able to try it so you could see. It really is amazing with it's sedative properties the next day. You do make good points out of concern though, which is always a good thing in my book. I find it a remarkable drug that can switch from hypnotic to sedative the next day.
Oh I'd hesitate to guess its far more habituating than diazepam considering it has a short half life and goes after the sedative-hypnotic part of GABA-A more than other things.Yes, you're right, I was talking about the other *nitraz*epams. But its irrelevant, you can't legally ship from a trusted pharmacy and member of the various Canadian pharmacy associations (mostly in Manitoba) and Canadian made or Canadian approved nitrazepam across the border as its a scheduled agent (Sched IV).
Posted by cactus on November 23, 2007, at 21:41:53
In reply to Re: Good calm vs. bad calm » cactus, posted by yxibow on November 23, 2007, at 12:17:37
Yes, you're right, I was talking about the other *nitraz*epams. But its irrelevant, you can't legally ship from a trusted pharmacy and member of the various Canadian pharmacy associations (mostly in Manitoba) and Canadian made or Canadian approved nitrazepam across the border as its a scheduled agent (Sched IV).
Yes you're right I wasn't suggesting to ship it from Canada at all, but yxibow, I have been on and off both for years and I find valium harder to come off even though it's got a longer half life. I suppose we are all different. There is apparently something slightly different in flunitrazepam that makes it really hard to stop. It's still available in Australia but impossible to get a script for, not that I want one.
Posted by rgb on November 24, 2007, at 16:36:13
In reply to Good calm vs. bad calm, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2007, at 15:20:46
Hi,
psychostimulants -> *good* calmness for a few hours :) This is utterly unsustainable though, not to speak of the other problems like obsessive redosing. So take this more as a curiosity.
Posted by cumulative on November 30, 2007, at 4:41:37
In reply to Stimulants (was: Good calm vs. bad calm) » linkadge, posted by rgb on November 24, 2007, at 16:36:13
I disagree with the classification of stimulants as utterly unsustainable. The euphoria is unsustainable. OTOH many people successfully take the same dose of a psychostimulant for full therapeutic effect, for many years.
Posted by rgb on December 1, 2007, at 9:51:17
In reply to Re: Stimulants (was: Good calm vs. bad calm), posted by cumulative on November 30, 2007, at 4:41:37
Hello cumulative,
well, I'd say the "just sitting still, and your body and whatever you are doing at the moment feels so right" is bordering on euphoria territory :) But maybe I do have ADD after all and that's the therapeutic effect ;)
I don't have a qualified opinion about sustainability of therapeutic effects, but I'm curious as to why you think that it is sustainable? For me personally, the crash after even a single day makes me horrified of what would happen after a few months.
Posted by Molitor on December 2, 2007, at 19:09:49
In reply to Re: Stimulants (was: Good calm vs. bad calm), posted by rgb on December 1, 2007, at 9:51:17
> Hello cumulative,
>
> well, I'd say the "just sitting still, and your body and whatever you are doing at the moment feels so right" is bordering on euphoria territory :) But maybe I do have ADD after all and that's the therapeutic effect ;)
>
> I don't have a qualified opinion about sustainability of therapeutic effects, but I'm curious as to why you think that it is sustainable? For me personally, the crash after even a single day makes me horrified of what would happen after a few months.I've taken stimulants for (extreme) sleepiness and fatigue, as well as to augment antidepressants since the mid-80s, and usually the antidepressants lost effectiveness before the stimulant did. I've never had a problem discontinuing them, even to the point where I can stop while I still have half a bottle of left. If I taper a few days, I don't get any withdrawal at all.
Ritalin uniquely had an annoying mood-up, mood-down thing when I'd take it, and I'd imagine this could get rather unpleasant as dose increases. Realize that the mood-up, happy, motivated, king of the world stuff is a *side-effect*. It's a pleasant side-effect, but it's still a side-effect and not part of the therapeutic action. That part usually isn't sustainable because, well, it's a side-effect. Provigil has some degree of mood elevation, but Cylert and Adderall are very mood-neutral.
When I took Adderall three times a day, I'd even forget doses and, although I'd get sleepy later on, there was never any urge to take them, and never any kind of crash.
So for me, at least, they are sustainable long-term, perhaps indefinitely. If Nardil were as sustainable as Adderall, I'd be very, very happy.
Posted by utopizen on December 3, 2007, at 21:55:01
In reply to Re: Stimulants (was: Good calm vs. bad calm) » rgb, posted by Molitor on December 2, 2007, at 19:09:49
Linkadge:
I've seen your posts from quite awhile back. I honestly haven't been at this board for like 2 years, maybe a post here and there since then... but honestly, I think a lot of the side effects/what your doc may be trying to say is, "accept it, and be happy you AREN'T calm." (as in, that you aren't in need of an AP, etc.) --
because these things, like anxiety, actually are undesirable in some respects. Yeah, it's not likely you'll be associated with being Mr./Ms. Popular at school when you're anxious.
But I said once something about not having a girlfriend, while sort of begging for klonopin, back when I had social anxiety, and my doc said "Um, don't you want a girl who will accept you?"
You know what? I still take heart to that statement to this day. And guess what? Girls have actually accepted me. Some of the most beautiful girls in my school. Yeah, I'll admit, that was after I switched docs, and got Klonopin.... hehe...
but still, I don't take klonopin (doc gives it to me, but I don't take it...) and I'm kinda fine. If I weren't on a stim (desoxyn) I'd be superfine. Not anxious fine.
Desoxyn will make me anxious. If I don't take Desoxyn at work, though, I will be too fine. I will just Google all day. And I need to get paid.
So yeah. Whatever. I'm not suppose to be my super, psychological success story of an adapted self while at work. I'm suppose to get stuff done, so I prefer it. I also am not trying to hook up with girls while I fix their computers. So I don't care if I come off as anxious. Or if I do, I also don't care. Because they still like me. Because being anxious suggests someone's sensitive. And that's actually a desirable trait, not something to obsess over drowning out.
And yeah, I don't look for girls who are super smooth. I might not look for someone who looks like they're tweaking on their third day of a crack run, but, a little anxiety tends to be sorta cute ; )
anyway, if you haven't seen it: download/rent Thumbsucker. Seriously.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 4, 2007, at 22:26:16
In reply to Re: Stimulants (was: Good calm vs. bad calm), posted by rgb on December 1, 2007, at 9:51:17
I'd say the "just sitting still, and your body and whatever you are doing at the moment feels so right
hey i think that sounds how life should feel in an ideal world
adderall has helped me a fair amount and i keep the effect fairly sustained by taking a day or two off sometimes
that said, no it's not the same as at first
but for now, even if i get ahead of myself sometimes i prefer it to the paralysis of confusion
Hello cumulative,
>
> well, I'd say the "just sitting still, and your body and whatever you are doing at the moment feels so right" is bordering on euphoria territory :) But maybe I do have ADD after all and that's the therapeutic effect ;)
>
> I don't have a qualified opinion about sustainability of therapeutic effects, but I'm curious as to why you think that it is sustainable? For me personally, the crash after even a single day makes me horrified of what would happen after a few months.
This is the end of the thread.
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