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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on December 7, 2009, at 1:00:32
Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals with and without sleep bruxism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18516634
---surprise surprise. the idea that levels of neurotransmitters offers no potentially usable information on someone's neurology is b*llsh*t. now to find people who actually want to help people who cannot function.
Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 6:49:31
In reply to Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by iforgotmypassword on December 7, 2009, at 1:00:32
> Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals with and without sleep bruxism
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18516634
>
>
> ---
>
> surprise surprise. the idea that levels of neurotransmitters offers no potentially usable information on someone's neurology is b*llsh*t. now to find people who actually want to help people who cannot function.I wish they would have mentioned which catecholamines were found to be different in affected individuals. Years ago, there was debate over whether urinary MHPG (norepinephrine) was a valid marker of depressive disorders. At the time, there was research yielding opposing results. Look for work done by William Z. Potter.
http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000092/CH090.html
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on December 7, 2009, at 7:48:03
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 6:49:31
I think however, that urinary levels of neurotransmitters or metabolites is still not a necessarily good indicator of their function in the CNS.
As mentioned in the article, stress could be associated with bruxism, in which case a higher level of catecholamine excretion might be expected.
But, I would still suggest that this information *is* essentially unusable.
What is causing the elevated catecholamine excretion? Is it stress, or is it something more closly linked with the bruxism itself? Is the catecholamine excretion exaserbating the bruxism symptoms, or is it a psysiological adaptive response to the bruxism. Perhapse the catecholamine levels are related to another disorder which is highly comorbid with bruxism.
Was concomitant use of medication analyzed, which may account for the findings?
The bottom line is that we don't know whether doing something to *correct this finding* will have an ameliorative or deleterious effect on the disorder.
Linkadge
Posted by SheilaC on December 7, 2009, at 9:45:24
In reply to Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by iforgotmypassword on December 7, 2009, at 1:00:32
This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 10:04:18
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SheilaC on December 7, 2009, at 9:45:24
> This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
I experience the same thing with SRIs. Excess serotonin can cause muscle flexion. I think it works from the top and works its way down. As funny as it sounds, much of what has been learned about the effects of serotonin on body tissues and posture comes from studying the lobster. Bruxism is an indicator of increased serotonergic tone as has been revealed from studying rats and humans.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 10:37:13
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals » SheilaC, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 10:04:18
I don't get it you mean teeth and tight jaw? I never had that happen? Phillipa
Posted by SheilaC on December 7, 2009, at 10:58:32
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals » SheilaC, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 10:04:18
> > This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
>
> I experience the same thing with SRIs. Excess serotonin can cause muscle flexion. I think it works from the top and works its way down. As funny as it sounds, much of what has been learned about the effects of serotonin on body tissues and posture comes from studying the lobster. Bruxism is an indicator of increased serotonergic tone as has been revealed from studying rats and humans.
>
>
> - ScottSo does that mean if we experience SB with SSRIs, we probably already have higher than normal serotonin? And adding the SSRI just causes the SB?
Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 12:46:29
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SheilaC on December 7, 2009, at 10:58:32
> > > This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
> >
> > I experience the same thing with SRIs. Excess serotonin can cause muscle flexion. I think it works from the top and works its way down. As funny as it sounds, much of what has been learned about the effects of serotonin on body tissues and posture comes from studying the lobster. Bruxism is an indicator of increased serotonergic tone as has been revealed from studying rats and humans.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> So does that mean if we experience SB with SSRIs, we probably already have higher than normal serotonin? And adding the SSRI just causes the SB?That's great question. One problem, though. I don't know the answer. It may be possible that stress hormones and excess noradrenergic tone could do the same thing. I'm not sure. Perhaps this is a case where there is a disruption in maintaining a balance between different neural pathways. If a benzodiazepine can reduce bruxism, then I should think that norepinephrine is involved.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 19:32:59
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 12:46:29
Why would a benzo stop it? Don't understand? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 22:27:20
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals » SLS, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 19:32:59
> Why would a benzo stop it? Don't understand? Phillipa
A BZD influences GABA neurons to inhibit (squelch) excitatory NE neurons and reduce sympathetic tone. Inhibit stress neurons > reduce bruxism.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2009, at 19:41:10
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals » Phillipa, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 22:27:20
So it's stress that causes it? Love Phillipa
Posted by Bob on December 11, 2009, at 22:49:35
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SheilaC on December 7, 2009, at 9:45:24
> This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
>
>Me too. I have big problems with SNRIs especially.
Posted by Bob on December 11, 2009, at 22:51:58
In reply to Re: Urinary levels of catecholamines among individuals, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 12:46:29
> > > > This is interesting. I have suffered from SB for about 20 years. It all started when I began taking SSRIs & SNRIs. When I stop medications that effect neurotransmitters, my SB stops.
> > >
> > > I experience the same thing with SRIs. Excess serotonin can cause muscle flexion. I think it works from the top and works its way down. As funny as it sounds, much of what has been learned about the effects of serotonin on body tissues and posture comes from studying the lobster. Bruxism is an indicator of increased serotonergic tone as has been revealed from studying rats and humans.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > So does that mean if we experience SB with SSRIs, we probably already have higher than normal serotonin? And adding the SSRI just causes the SB?
>
> That's great question. One problem, though. I don't know the answer. It may be possible that stress hormones and excess noradrenergic tone could do the same thing. I'm not sure. Perhaps this is a case where there is a disruption in maintaining a balance between different neural pathways. If a benzodiazepine can reduce bruxism, then I should think that norepinephrine is involved.
>
>
> - Scott
>My doctor claims that all three monamines are likely involved - that is NRI's and dopamine agonists can also aggravate it.
- Bob
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