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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nardilcopter on December 14, 2009, at 14:48:27
Hi yall. This post is about my experiences with pretty excessive abuse of minor psychoactives on Nardil. Specifically, I want to talk about my loss of self control and subsequent overindulgence of marijuana, nicotine, and caffene while on the drug. I've been taking Nardil for 5 months now, and because my experience has been, well, "contaminated" I suppose is the word, I thought I'd share my observations.
When I began taking Nardil for depression, I had previously been on SSRI's for 14 years (beginning at age 8 for severe OCD, which has largely been treated.) Beginning the year before I was prescribed Nardil, I had smoked marijuana daily, smoked ~1/2 a pack of cigarettes a day, and had a developed a slight caffeine dependence.
When the Nardil began to take effect after a month or so, it had 2 major effects on me: First, it made me really happy- euphoric, really, as if I was on a permanent low dose of ecstasy. I became more talkative and outgoing, but this felt like the result of the constant mood-boost more than any reduction in anxiety.
The second effect was my downfall: I lost self control and the ability to resist indulgence. Everything I had previously abused now seemed to deliver a 10-fold increase in pleasure and they all began to potentate each other. My uncontrollable indulgence led to some interesting changes.
In most cases, all of these were actually used simultaneously, so I've tried to describe both the combined and differentiated effects of each. I'm going to describe my initial my 2 month experience with each of these substances after Nardil kicked in, followed by the long term effects of each.
60mg/day Nardil, months 2 and 3...
Cannabis: There's surprisingly little information on this combination. This isn't too surprising- I'd imagine prospective Nardil users would avoid it, because weed typically makes SA worse. This was the case for me, before Nardil, however for various reasons I enjoyed the drug enough to put up with the discomfort. After the Nardil began working, I felt less inhibited by anxiety while high - I was able to actually participate in group conversations and smoked more with others. The big change, however, was that many times, especially if smoking at night, I would never really come down. The high would diminish leaving me with a sense of unstoppable power and energy, similar to mania but more like meth (no exaggeration here). I'd power on, long into the night, without the slightest desire for sleep, working on various projects. At first, the morning sun would signal my body to sleep, but before long, I powered right through that as well. It wasn't long before I was staying up for days on end, fueled by copious amounts of marijuana, never feeling the slightest bit frazzled, fatigued, or non-alert until the final moment, when I'd crash and sleep for upwards of 24 hours. To summarize my experience, smoking marijuana on Nardil can be an extremely powerful, somewhat irreversible energy booster, and can lead to intense, prolonged feelings of mental energy and physical endurance.
Nicotine: My loss of self-control on Nardil quickly led to more smoking. I went from 1/2 a pack a day to what I can only guess amounts to 1-2 packs/day. It's a bit of a blur- during my marijuana power-trips, I'd light up a cigarette whenever I remembered I had the option to. The nicotine rush was weakly-euphoric and energizing, a perfect supplement to many an all-nighter. Use of cannabis always led to an increased urge to smoke, and allowed me to smoke rather absurd amounts without feeling any nicotine-sickness.
Caffeine: Once under the influence of Nardil, my use of caffeine progressed quickly from a slight dependence to a full-out addiction. Though not as strong of an energy booster as weed, it pleasantly increased my focus and ability to converse. It was especially useful for mitigating the initial clouded mindset of a nicotine or cannabis high. My caffeine came exclusively from coffee, which was almost always accompanied with cigarettes. The direct combination of the two (take a drag, take a sip, exhale) would yield an intense, euphoric rush, probably due to a spike in blood pressure.
OK, so I think you get the picture - during this time I was living just about the most unhealthy lifestyle imaginable, making endless use of mood and energy enhancers, and slowing my circadian rhythms dramatically. Looking back, I can't say I regret it, it was a hell of a ride and I got some truly impressive work done. However, it was obviously not to last. Something changed over the last month. Perhaps it has something to do with the end of summer, the diminished social activity around home, or the fact that it's been freezing rain for 3 weeks and my music studio, binge central, has dropped to miserable, unbearable temperatures. Whatever the reason, each of these substances has become not only lost its effect, but they've all become downright unbearable.
60mg/day Nardil, month 5...
Cannabis: I can't smoke anymore. Doing so leads to what I can only describe as an "anxiety headache." It's a feeling of intangible mental unrest and agitation, accompanied by a hollow, burned out kind of feeling in my head. It's an annoyance more than anything, and doesn't seem to impair my ability to think, but it no longer energizes me. Instead, it leaves me feeling slow and frazzled for hours afterword.
Nicotine: Smoking cigarettes makes me feel instantly sick. It's almost a feeling reminiscent of what you'd get after downing a bucket of double-deep-fried chicken to your face. My head feels hot with a spotty, dull pain. The smell and taste are repulsive. The rush is uncomfortable and anxiety-ridden, and destroys my focus. Recovering from all of this takes about an hour.
Caffeine: Caffeine, while not downright intolerable, increases anxiety levels slightly and otherwise doesn't do much at all. The all-day energy boost from drinking cup after cup has been replaced by a brief lift, followed by a mild jittery feeling which lasts for hours. Obviously I no longer combine this with nicotine, as the cumulative effect amounts to disgust.
To conclude this report, it appears that after roughly 2 months of indulgent lifestyle, the effects of each drug rapidly dwindled or became just plain unbearable for physical or psychological reasons. It's almost unreal how quickly my entire spirit and ability to thrive on this lifestyle was crushed. It leaves me wondering how much of it is purely psychological and related to this depressing change of the season.
And what of the Nardil? Well, sadly, it's become virtually unnoticeable. Perhaps its still doing its job, yet my mood baseline has dropped so dramatically that I perceive it to be barely keeping me afloat. If that's the case, then it's quite scary to think where I'd be right now without it. Though I would not currently consider myself depressed, I feel depression tugging at me, and it is a heavy, depleting feeling.
That's about it. If anyone has comments or similar experiences please share. Please refrain from insulting my irresponsibility, I regret what I did and I just wanted others to learn from it.
I'm a little concerned though.. I've corrected my sleep schedule, quit smoking weed, and have cut way down on cigarettes and caffeine, and I don't feel much better. I've even begun to eat better and get daily exercise, but the old Nardil charm won't come back. If anyone could help me answer the following I'd really appreciate it..
Do you think this could be related to Seasonal Affective Disorder?
Have I somehow permanently halted the Nardil from doing its job? Should I stop taking it?
Does anyone know where I can read more about Nardil's interaction with cannabis?Thanks a bunch.
Posted by hyperfocus on December 14, 2009, at 21:15:13
In reply to Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by Nardilcopter on December 14, 2009, at 14:48:27
I've never used Nardil but a poster named ace has maintained this healthy euphoric state peculiar to Nardil for years. Maybe you could babblemail him or leave a message here. I think he started a thread for people with questions on Nardil; you can search the archives
What bothers me is that you were increasing the response to Nardil by an order of magnitude with other stuff. The fact that it felt like ecstasy or meth means there was overproduction of the neurotransmitter dopamine. It's been said that chronic use of ecstasy or coke or meth depletes the bits of the brain responsible for dopamine production, and the user becomes dysthemic and anhedonic - quite literally burnt out. The studies should be easy to find online. I'm not discouraging you because I guarantee there's an a solution for you; I just want to give my idea on what could have happened to you. I don't think it's SAD.
There are many strategies you can try, like augmenting Nardil with Wellbutrin or a stimulant or something like nortiptyline. Switching to Parnate is another option, and you can also augment it in the same way. Plus there are meds like lithium and tianeptine that have neuroprotective properties.
Keep the hope alive - you will get getter.
Posted by Nardilcopter on December 15, 2009, at 10:53:32
In reply to Re: Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by hyperfocus on December 14, 2009, at 21:15:13
I guess it's obvious that such a lifestyle would lead to burn out, but if such weak psychoactive substances, combined with Nardil, can lead to dopamine depletion comparable to methamphetamine over the course of 2 months, I think it's pretty significant. Bottom line is that Nardil is a powerful drug. In many cases it lowers self-control and increases impulsiveness. At the same time, it increases availability of neurotransmitters and thus the potency and enjoyment of addictive substances (even things like fatty foods). I'd encourage other people to learn from my mistake.. let the Nardil do its job alone. I'm going clean as of now, hoping I haven't permanently damaged myself or my ability to benefit from this wonderful medication.
Posted by bulldog2 on December 16, 2009, at 16:46:15
In reply to Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by Nardilcopter on December 14, 2009, at 14:48:27
> Hi yall. This post is about my experiences with pretty excessive abuse of minor psychoactives on Nardil. Specifically, I want to talk about my loss of self control and subsequent overindulgence of marijuana, nicotine, and caffene while on the drug. I've been taking Nardil for 5 months now, and because my experience has been, well, "contaminated" I suppose is the word, I thought I'd share my observations.
>
> When I began taking Nardil for depression, I had previously been on SSRI's for 14 years (beginning at age 8 for severe OCD, which has largely been treated.) Beginning the year before I was prescribed Nardil, I had smoked marijuana daily, smoked ~1/2 a pack of cigarettes a day, and had a developed a slight caffeine dependence.
>
> When the Nardil began to take effect after a month or so, it had 2 major effects on me: First, it made me really happy- euphoric, really, as if I was on a permanent low dose of ecstasy. I became more talkative and outgoing, but this felt like the result of the constant mood-boost more than any reduction in anxiety.
>
> The second effect was my downfall: I lost self control and the ability to resist indulgence. Everything I had previously abused now seemed to deliver a 10-fold increase in pleasure and they all began to potentate each other. My uncontrollable indulgence led to some interesting changes.
>
> In most cases, all of these were actually used simultaneously, so I've tried to describe both the combined and differentiated effects of each. I'm going to describe my initial my 2 month experience with each of these substances after Nardil kicked in, followed by the long term effects of each.
>
> 60mg/day Nardil, months 2 and 3...
>
> Cannabis: There's surprisingly little information on this combination. This isn't too surprising- I'd imagine prospective Nardil users would avoid it, because weed typically makes SA worse. This was the case for me, before Nardil, however for various reasons I enjoyed the drug enough to put up with the discomfort. After the Nardil began working, I felt less inhibited by anxiety while high - I was able to actually participate in group conversations and smoked more with others. The big change, however, was that many times, especially if smoking at night, I would never really come down. The high would diminish leaving me with a sense of unstoppable power and energy, similar to mania but more like meth (no exaggeration here). I'd power on, long into the night, without the slightest desire for sleep, working on various projects. At first, the morning sun would signal my body to sleep, but before long, I powered right through that as well. It wasn't long before I was staying up for days on end, fueled by copious amounts of marijuana, never feeling the slightest bit frazzled, fatigued, or non-alert until the final moment, when I'd crash and sleep for upwards of 24 hours. To summarize my experience, smoking marijuana on Nardil can be an extremely powerful, somewhat irreversible energy booster, and can lead to intense, prolonged feelings of mental energy and physical endurance.
>
> Nicotine: My loss of self-control on Nardil quickly led to more smoking. I went from 1/2 a pack a day to what I can only guess amounts to 1-2 packs/day. It's a bit of a blur- during my marijuana power-trips, I'd light up a cigarette whenever I remembered I had the option to. The nicotine rush was weakly-euphoric and energizing, a perfect supplement to many an all-nighter. Use of cannabis always led to an increased urge to smoke, and allowed me to smoke rather absurd amounts without feeling any nicotine-sickness.
>
> Caffeine: Once under the influence of Nardil, my use of caffeine progressed quickly from a slight dependence to a full-out addiction. Though not as strong of an energy booster as weed, it pleasantly increased my focus and ability to converse. It was especially useful for mitigating the initial clouded mindset of a nicotine or cannabis high. My caffeine came exclusively from coffee, which was almost always accompanied with cigarettes. The direct combination of the two (take a drag, take a sip, exhale) would yield an intense, euphoric rush, probably due to a spike in blood pressure.
>
> OK, so I think you get the picture - during this time I was living just about the most unhealthy lifestyle imaginable, making endless use of mood and energy enhancers, and slowing my circadian rhythms dramatically. Looking back, I can't say I regret it, it was a hell of a ride and I got some truly impressive work done. However, it was obviously not to last. Something changed over the last month. Perhaps it has something to do with the end of summer, the diminished social activity around home, or the fact that it's been freezing rain for 3 weeks and my music studio, binge central, has dropped to miserable, unbearable temperatures. Whatever the reason, each of these substances has become not only lost its effect, but they've all become downright unbearable.
>
> 60mg/day Nardil, month 5...
>
> Cannabis: I can't smoke anymore. Doing so leads to what I can only describe as an "anxiety headache." It's a feeling of intangible mental unrest and agitation, accompanied by a hollow, burned out kind of feeling in my head. It's an annoyance more than anything, and doesn't seem to impair my ability to think, but it no longer energizes me. Instead, it leaves me feeling slow and frazzled for hours afterword.
>
> Nicotine: Smoking cigarettes makes me feel instantly sick. It's almost a feeling reminiscent of what you'd get after downing a bucket of double-deep-fried chicken to your face. My head feels hot with a spotty, dull pain. The smell and taste are repulsive. The rush is uncomfortable and anxiety-ridden, and destroys my focus. Recovering from all of this takes about an hour.
>
> Caffeine: Caffeine, while not downright intolerable, increases anxiety levels slightly and otherwise doesn't do much at all. The all-day energy boost from drinking cup after cup has been replaced by a brief lift, followed by a mild jittery feeling which lasts for hours. Obviously I no longer combine this with nicotine, as the cumulative effect amounts to disgust.
>
> To conclude this report, it appears that after roughly 2 months of indulgent lifestyle, the effects of each drug rapidly dwindled or became just plain unbearable for physical or psychological reasons. It's almost unreal how quickly my entire spirit and ability to thrive on this lifestyle was crushed. It leaves me wondering how much of it is purely psychological and related to this depressing change of the season.
>
> And what of the Nardil? Well, sadly, it's become virtually unnoticeable. Perhaps its still doing its job, yet my mood baseline has dropped so dramatically that I perceive it to be barely keeping me afloat. If that's the case, then it's quite scary to think where I'd be right now without it. Though I would not currently consider myself depressed, I feel depression tugging at me, and it is a heavy, depleting feeling.
>
> That's about it. If anyone has comments or similar experiences please share. Please refrain from insulting my irresponsibility, I regret what I did and I just wanted others to learn from it.
>
> I'm a little concerned though.. I've corrected my sleep schedule, quit smoking weed, and have cut way down on cigarettes and caffeine, and I don't feel much better. I've even begun to eat better and get daily exercise, but the old Nardil charm won't come back. If anyone could help me answer the following I'd really appreciate it..
>
> Do you think this could be related to Seasonal Affective Disorder?
> Have I somehow permanently halted the Nardil from doing its job? Should I stop taking it?
> Does anyone know where I can read more about Nardil's interaction with cannabis?
>
> Thanks a bunch.I would say you've basically exhausted your body's ability to make neurotransitters. You could add something in something like lithium which I believe has some weak ad properties. Sounds like you are making just enough neurotransmitters to keep you above water.
You need to give your body time to heal. Try to get plenty of sleep. Your diet should include plenty of good quality protein (whey protein drinks also) plenty of green vegetables and whole grains. Also some good supplements such as fish oil and folate etc. If your adrenals are beat up dhea or a low dose of natual cortisone might help your adrenals. Your body has become exhausted so now you need rest and the proper building blocks for recovery. Than the nardil will start working again.
Nardil is probably still doing it's job which is to bind to mao which prevents mao from destroying your neurotransmitters(nts). In most cases this elevates your nts levels. Your body just isn't producing much nts at this time. You need time to heal. So rest, great diet not good and super supplements should help your recovery.
Posted by GreenP on February 24, 2010, at 20:29:34
In reply to Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by Nardilcopter on December 14, 2009, at 14:48:27
>>>Cannabis: I can't smoke anymore. Doing so leads to what I can only describe as an "anxiety headache." It's a feeling of intangible mental unrest and agitation, accompanied by a hollow, burned out kind of feeling in my head. It's an annoyance more than anything, and doesn't seem to impair my ability to think, but it no longer energizes me. Instead, it leaves me feeling slow and frazzled for hours afterword.
>>>Nicotine: Smoking cigarettes makes me feel instantly sick. It's almost a feeling reminiscent of what you'd get after downing a bucket of double-deep-fried chicken to your face. My head feels hot with a spotty, dull pain. The smell and taste are repulsive. The rush is uncomfortable and anxiety-ridden, and destroys my focus. Recovering from all of this takes about an hour.
>>>Caffeine: Caffeine, while not downright intolerable, increases anxiety levels slightly and otherwise doesn't do much at all. The all-day energy boost from drinking cup after cup has been replaced by a brief lift, followed by a mild jittery feeling which lasts for hours. Obviously I no longer combine this with nicotine, as the cumulative effect amounts to disgust.
******
Ahh I'm like really confused because that's my reaction to those things now... and I'm not on Nardil yet... Is my brain fried? I'm waiting to go on the Nardil, will start it in 5 days. I'm starting to get really worried that I shouldn't. I'm so confused!
:/Furthermore, this posting made me think a lot about my own experiences with drugs. Marijuana made me paranoid since I was about 16, but when I was 20 I started doing it everyday anyway because I'm an idiot, did it everyday for about 2 years straight. Once I stopped I was kinda a changed person. I had always had anxiety, and social anxiety in certain situations, but after being on a bad trip for two years straight, I couldn't talk to people the way that I used to. Now it's 2 years later and I'm still socially awkward and that's part of the reason I'm going on Nardil in the first place. Am I just pushing my brain too much? Is this a really bad idea?!
Posted by Nardilcopter on February 24, 2010, at 22:01:24
In reply to Re: Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by GreenP on February 24, 2010, at 20:29:34
GreenP I know how you feel. It's going to take a long time, maybe a 6-12 months, for your brain to rewire itself to sobriety, but it will happen. I doubt you are a different person than you used to be. More likely, as in my case, you are probably just worried more about it now, which makes you more sensitive to your own faults. When high, did you often feel like you or others looked or acted silly/stupid? Those thoughts can stick with you, as they are self-fulfilling. It's important to realize that it's not exactly the weed that has made you more socially anxious, its reinforced habits of thinking. Anxiety won't go away unless you break the habits.
The best way is to do this is just to force yourself to talk to people. Start easy, with good friends, then challenge yourself to talk to coworkers, then maybe even strangers. Don't over-think it, be spontaneous and just go for it. Awkwardness dissolves quickly, like the chill from jumping in a cold pool. The good news is that Nardil will make it much easier to jump in. The mood boost will also make it easier to laugh off social awkwardness rather than fearing it.
Remember that weed doesn't change people, lifestyle changes do, so change your lifestyle. I quit all of the drugs mentioned here, started eating better, working more, and left my old stoner buddies behind (more like they left me), and after 4 months I just feel loads better.
Definitely take the Nardil, and just steer clear of all stimulants for a while. Also get lots of sleep. If you've been going to bed high the last 2 years then you have not been getting sufficient REM sleep.
Posted by Holygeorgizas on July 2, 2016, at 1:24:11
In reply to Experiences: Nardil + Cannabis, Caffeine, Nicotine, posted by Nardilcopter on December 14, 2009, at 14:48:27
To be clear in response to the first follow up post and subsequent comments based on those statements, Nardil as a MAOI is not a releasing agent of dopamine like MDMA, Dextromethamphetamine (meth), or cocaine (which is more specifically a dopamine reuptake inhibitor). It does not function in the same way as that class of drug, and subsequently would not create the same neurotransmitter complications as the user would suggest. As a MAOI, nardil/phenelzine do not release any of the monoamine neurotransmitters, but rather increase their extracellular levels through the unique interaction with the monoamine oxidase enzyme family through inhibition of this activity. To me this seems fundamentally different to a psychoactive substance directly releasing a neurotransmitter. You seem like a well spoken intelligent person nardilcopter, and i think an increase in dose would/could (if you are still on the substance) have been a good idea. From what you write, it most definitely seems that you experienced a manic or hypomanic episode from the nardil alone (thus increasing your drug use overall), and that the lack of effectiveness of the nardil, and complete psychological adversion to the other substances occurred in response to the episode ending.
This is the end of the thread.
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