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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2009, at 0:15:26
I took this whole lyme's issue into my own hands and a few days ago sent this to a lab on internet here's there answer to my question and question. thoughts? Phillipa
You recently sent ASCLS the following question:
Question-------------------------------------------------------
I actively had lymes disease confirmed by infection control specialist about l0 years ago and was treated for over two years first with 5 days rocephin Iv via pic line, then orally three months at a time with long acting biaxin. For years ago again tested positive with Western Blot for Lymes and health dept called to ask who was treating the doc said you have had enough antibiotics no more. Now I just got tested again on my own and IGM was 2.5 and IGG negative. I'm 63 years old and originally from CT. So does the still positive IGM mean lymes is active or is the number low? I can find no numbers for comparison on internet via multiple searches and am very concerned. Thanks your answer would truly be appreciated. Sincerely Jan
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Our Response:
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Jan,
Thank you for using the American Society for Clinical Laboratory Science (ASCLS) consumer information website. This service is staffed by clinical laboratory scientists who volunteer their time to answer questions from individuals about laboratory test results.
There is no perfect test for Lyme Disease and diagnosis of Lyme disease should be passed on physical examination, clinical symptoms, medical history and other findings. Given the scenario you related here, it would appear that you should have been adequately treated and additional treatment would not be warranted if you are not exhibiting any symptoms consistent with Lyme Disease. You state that your IgG was negative and your IgM was 2.5. It is unusual that your IgM levels would be positive and your IgG negative. On that report, there should be a reference range printed on the report somewhere. If 2.5 is above the negative cut-off value, additional testing may be warranted.There are additional tests that could be done, such as PCR for Borrelia burgdorferi. Borrelia burgdorferi is the spirochetal bacterium tht causes Lyme Disease. For more information about Lyme Disease testing at http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/lyme/test.html
In closing I am proud to represent thousands of clinical laboratory scientists who specialize in the disciplines of clinical chemistry, medical microbiology, transfusion services and hematology. The data obtained in these disciplines provide over 70% of the objective information that health care practitioners use in making diagnosis and formulating treatment decisions for their patients.Best regards,
Mary Beth Miele, PhD, MLS (Medical Laboratory Scientist)
ASCLS consumer response team
Posted by bleauberry on December 11, 2009, at 22:11:35
In reply to Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2009, at 0:15:26
> There is no perfect test for Lyme Disease and diagnosis of Lyme disease should be passed on physical examination, clinical symptoms, medical history and other findings.
Bingo. These people seem to know there stuff.
Given the scenario you related here, it would appear that you should have been adequately treated and additional treatment would not be warranted if you are not exhibiting any symptoms consistent with Lyme Disease.
Agreed, except for one thing...you do exhibit symptoms consistent with Lyme Disease. Quite a few actually, most of them taking on the pattern of late stage chronic infection.
You state that your IgG was negative and your IgM was 2.5. It is unusual that your IgM levels would be positive and your IgG negative.
One of the things borrelia is a genius at is excreting chemicals that confuse the immune system, so as to protect itself from the immune system...survival...and this also causes confusion when viewing tests of that immune system.
There are additional tests that could be done, such as PCR for Borrelia burgdorferi.
Several pioneering companies and labs are making rapid strides at more accurate testing. One for example does not look specifically for traces of the organism, but rather for the unique patterns of the immune system very common to Lyme. These patterns are spelled out in scientific detail in the Stephan Buhner's book "Healing Lyme."
The only reliable Western Blot is by the Igenex Lab. Other labs do not specialize in Lyme, Igenex does. Their accuracy rate is the highest in the industry.
Buhner recommends several heavily researched herbs to reverse the dysfunction immune patterns back to normal, in addition to these herbs killing spirochetes. As of 2008, practitioners have reported about 500 cases in which 90% had either complete or marked recovery with these herbs.
Borrelia burgdorferi is the spirochetal bacterium tht causes Lyme Disease.
But that's not all. Coinfections with Bartonella, Babesia, and candida are very common...usually the norm not the exception...and they are not eradicated with the same agents that eradicate borrelia.
And if that's not enough, there is something called the "post Lyme syndrome". That is, even after the organisms have been successfully eradicated, the Lyme symptoms continue. It is not the majority, but it happens. That is due to the immune system stuck in dysfunction. Autoimmune continues, hashimotos continues, and all the myriad complications such as fatigue, brain fog, depression, osteoporosis, bone loss, skin disorders, depression, and anxiety continue, despite not having Lyme anymore. All these improve significantly with two or three specific herbs in that fantastic book that get the immune system back to where it is supposed to be.
Another excellent author is Dr Zhang, but I found Bunher's book much more detailed, scientific, and heavily researched. Much of it was medical terms over my head. All I know is, the dang herbs do what they are supposed to do. For anyone who even has the slightest hunch of possible Lyme, it's a no brainer to get these herbs.
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2009, at 0:13:20
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by bleauberry on December 11, 2009, at 22:11:35
Thanks blu I do agree with you. The unfortunate thing is that a secretary attempted to read the labs to me. I personally haven't seen them. Thank fully they were faxed to the first doc here that did a Western blot on me and when the Health Dept called and asked who was treating me as positive he said I needed no further treatment. Confusing further to me is that this girl said ANA now in normal range? And CBC and Chem 7 normal and rheumatoid factor. It's funny as a medicaire patient I can refer myself to a doc but not order tests or meds. Hey that site you told me about is no longer there. Think the library has that book? Also is there a way to bypass docs and order own labs? I've known from the beginning that I wasn't this person. Beginning yes happened in NC but it happened at the exact same time the hasimotos diagnosed. Prior by a week some flu like illness couldn't expand without pain my chest to breath. I thought that was my thyroid dying so to speak. But for two days took to the couch and then the anxiety hit full force. Did see an MD who said I didn't need antibiotics as lungs sounded fine. Then from the high anxiety a few days later another internist tested thyroid and put me on thyroid synthroid and on day l0 at work it was like the world opened up again and anxiety went down. Was fine for about three months then vertigo at night where crawled to bathroom. ER in am and a shot of ativan 2mg and antivert. And from that point on no energy to even move. The pdoc gave me lopressor 25mg for three weeks as no inderal cause of thyroid to help with the extraordinary anxiety and then paxil l0mg first ad with xanax. Lay in a hammock for three months did manage to run two miles daily with sheer will power. And drank beer at night felt better with it. Then after taking the full short term disability returned to nursing feeling well. Then about two years later my Son came to live with us and anxiety higher as building a house, driving him around, and working out, and working full time. Bingo hospital and disability. The rest is history. I'm seriously glad you responded to this. Now how to get further testing if those results are what was given via phone as know this rheumatoid osteo doc won't. The lyme's doc that went to trial here for lymes is now out of NC and in South Carolina some where. Jenkins or something like that not good with names. Thanks Jan
Posted by bleauberry on December 12, 2009, at 12:20:55
In reply to Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2009, at 0:15:26
>Now I just got tested again on my own and IGM was 2.5 and IGG negative.
Phillipa, was this a Western Blot?
If yes, what bands did it show? You didn't mention those in the results?
Was it by LabCorp or was it by Igenex?
These should help you tremendously with ALL of your symptoms:
Source Naturals Resveratrol (Japanese Knotwood) 40mg; 1 cap t.i.d., increasing to 3 caps t.i.d. weekly, for 2 to 8 months.
Planetary Herbals full spectrum Andrographis 400mg; same dosing as above.
Nature's Way Sarsaparilla; same dosing as above.
Redroot Tincture; 20 drops 3 times per day.
There are about 100 pages devoted to explaining in scientific details what all these do in the immune system, spirochete/bacterial/fungal infections, and detoxing. Bottom line, they are specific for the entire Lyme spectrum (autoimmune, fatigue, pains, brain fog, premature aging, mood, skin and bone disorders, etc) and the great majority of users find them extremely beneficial.
Highest doses are maintained for at least 2 months or until symptoms improve, and then slowly reduced. Total time is 8 to 12 months.
Total cost is about $30 a month.
In addition to being specific for confirmed Lyme, suspected Lyme, or something else that looks like Lyme, they happen to provide amazing health benefits for anyone who doesn't even have Lyme.
If you could somehow get a prescription for Doxycyline or Monocycline to go with the herbs, even better. But they themselves will do a lot of good just as they are. They reverse the ill effects of Lyme and kill spirochetes simultaneously.
Your worst enemies:
1. More lab tests.
2. Specialists.
3. Indecision.Why?
Lab tests will delay you from getting started. Lab tests can further confuse the picture or give false negatives...again, stalling or preventing taking action. The clinical picture is much more important.
Specialists are bound by rather rigid policies set by the insurance companies. Their hands are tied. They don't have much creativity or flexibility. They go by the book, and if you are still sick, then they say there is nothing more they can do for you...as you already experienced when they acknowledged you were still ill but said you didn't need any more treatment. Excuse me? Hard to believe those kinds of decisions come from so-called highly educated professionals. I think it is obvious educated is not necessarily equivalent to being smart.
I think thousands of people are commited to lifelong suffering (in a much shortened life by the way) with no hope in the hands of these narrow-vision specialists.
So what can we do? Easy. $30 a month for some of God's most glorious medicinal creations.
There are others. Cat's Claw, Teasel Root tincture, and more. I listed the ones with the most broad spectrum activity for the entire clinical picture.
This is not fairytale folklore stuff. These herbs are the real deal.
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2009, at 20:01:15
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by bleauberry on December 12, 2009, at 12:20:55
Blu it was a Western Blot for Lymes. But labcorp did do or run the test. As for the bands no idea as the dummy girl in the docs office failed to mail the results as promised to me but managed to fax to the docs office I see Monday for both the bones and lymes. He's the blow off doc and he worked in lymes in Westchester county NY and Yale. Check his name via Goggle Dr. Robert Kipnis. It will bring you to the practice. Also what do you think of evista for the bones definitely no biophosphinates and looked at Barnes and Noble, and Borders for the books today not available evidently a new one due in April. Amazon has the one you suggested first. But will wait til Monday to order. Also copy and pasted the info you provided on the herbs thanks Phillipa also a new supplement googable called www.growbone.com. Contains strotium considered toxic also?
Posted by bleauberry on December 14, 2009, at 18:21:58
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2009, at 20:01:15
I'm sorry to hear LabCorp was the lab. They do not specialize in Lyme and have higher inaccuracy rates than labs that do specialize. Without even seeing the results, if you could give it a score for importance, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being very high importance, I would give the results of your test about a 3. Any doctor who knows Lyme knows that the test is pretty much a procedure they have to do but isn't really very helpful. Someone can be sick as death with Lyme and come up negative on the test...that happens at a rate of 1 in 3 people. Unfortunately modern technology has not yet found a foolproof diagnosis of Lyme, and that is why it is a clinical diagnosis first and foremost, based on symptoms and history.
As I totally believe, the best test is a challenge test. Take Doxycyline full dose for 2 weeks and see what happens. Take Cipro for 2 weeks and see what happens. If you know what a Herx is, and you get one, diagnosis made, 99% accurate.
In the absence of a cooperative doc, it can be done by yourself with inexpensive things like:
Japanese Knotwood (Resveratrol)
Andrographis
Cat's Claw
Coptis RootOf the above, I have had the most severe Herx's from either Cat's Claw or Coptis Root.
I don't know about osteoporosis, except that it is one of the myriad complications of other diseases.
The book again is called Healing Lyme by Stephen Buhner. It's been on the market for a couple years.
> Blu it was a Western Blot for Lymes. But labcorp did do or run the test. As for the bands no idea as the dummy girl in the docs office failed to mail the results as promised to me but managed to fax to the docs office I see Monday for both the bones and lymes. He's the blow off doc and he worked in lymes in Westchester county NY and Yale. Check his name via Goggle Dr. Robert Kipnis. It will bring you to the practice. Also what do you think of evista for the bones definitely no biophosphinates and looked at Barnes and Noble, and Borders for the books today not available evidently a new one due in April. Amazon has the one you suggested first. But will wait til Monday to order. Also copy and pasted the info you provided on the herbs thanks Phillipa also a new supplement googable called www.growbone.com. Contains strotium considered toxic also?
Posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2009, at 21:23:36
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by bleauberry on December 14, 2009, at 18:21:58
Blu saw the doc today about four hours long as was for lymes and osteoporosis. Anyway he worked at Yale in the lyme's clinic before they questioned testing and antibiotic treatments and he was very imformative. First the girl got it backwards on the phone it was the IGG still positive but that's fine as the doc explained this shows you've had it and will always be positive to the antibodies same as if you have mumps, measles, get hepatitis vaccine positive antibodies give immunity. Said because I still have them I can not contract lymes again as now immune as my body built up the antibodies. So that's cleared up. Now got to decide if I do reclast IV for osteo as it can cause osteonecrosis of jaw and gives some fever and flu illness, muscle pains, bone pains, for a few days. Also new infusion med only on the market since 2007. Now he ran an executive panel today, parathyroid, ANA now negative, Another Dexa Scan and spine still the same as three years ago on his machine. And he said the other doc was wrong he expected to see a train wreck of my bones when the Dexa was transmitted to his personal computurized machine he said minor scoleosis and some spondylosis, and osteoarthristis but not bad. Problem is the hips have deteriorated more and reclast is best for hip bone growth. I'm thinking as he did also more thyroid and vita D also of ca mg d and K for a year and see if improvement. I'm about to start a 24 hour urine for metabolic syndrome to see if a reason my body isn't absorbing the calcium. Love Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on December 15, 2009, at 18:47:19
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2009, at 21:23:36
Well, that is all very interesting stuff about your bones and such.
However, the part about not having lyme and not being able to ever get it again because you have antibodies...comparing it to mumps or whatever...is such absolute hogwash I can't believe he said that. Well, I take that back. Doctors believe and say some of the most ludicrous things sometimes. I would have asked him, "How do you know"? The answer to that question is...no one knows. Has anyone ever taken someone like you, with antibodies, purposely given them an infected tick bite to see if they get Lyme again? No. His opinion is based purely on pie-in-the-sky hopeful thinking.
All this, while at the time the patient sitting in front of him has a suitcase full of common Lyme symptoms staring right at him. Geez.
The fact is, I can show you numerous accounts of people who have recontracted Lyme several times with new tick bites each time. Antibodies did not protect them from Lyme. When you are talking Borellia, you are talking a much more sophisticated potent organism than the other ones he mentioned.
There is also zero scientific proof that cured Lyme patients have antibodies. In truth, cured patients show zero antibodies. Their blood is clear and clean. So sign of antibodies, DNA protein bands, or anything. Not even a hint.
The doctor is flat out wrong on this one. Ask him to show you the proof that what he says is unquestionably undebatably accurate. He can't.
The only accurate test is a challenge for a Herx reaction. Of course, he didn't mention that.
Sorry, I don't mean to rag on him. It's just that people like him get people like you and me in a lot more trouble than we deserve.
Posted by Phillipa on December 15, 2009, at 21:31:30
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by bleauberry on December 15, 2009, at 18:47:19
I believe him as I have no joint pain swelling, temperatures or illness. I feel what he said the first time I saw him four years ago was correct that when receiving the IV rocephin via pic line in hospital I had jerking and twitching he called it a Herx reaction. I don't have lymes. Many websites also say the same. I don't spend time in bed. I'm out on my bike daily. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on December 16, 2009, at 17:35:31
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on December 15, 2009, at 21:31:30
> I believe him as I have no joint pain swelling, temperatures or illness. I feel what he said the first time I saw him four years ago was correct that when receiving the IV rocephin via pic line in hospital I had jerking and twitching he called it a Herx reaction. I don't have lymes. Many websites also say the same. I don't spend time in bed. I'm out on my bike daily. Phillipa
Well, I think you are probably correct. I mean, when people have Lyme and they know what Lyme is, they just instinctively know it. If you had Lyme, you would have that inner voice telling you. But it isn't. So you probably don't.
Posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2009, at 21:47:14
In reply to Re: Lymes Test Interpreted Via Website By Lab, posted by bleauberry on December 16, 2009, at 17:35:31
Interesting though today as returned the 24 hour urine for the calcium test and the lab tech who works in this practices lab said oh oh to lab corp said they send all theirs out and the Lymes takes a few weeks. Anyway found out the calcium leading to osteoporosis could be a parathyroid issue where the calcium mg is all being excreted via urine and if so no biophosphinates nor ca mg can be absorbed and treatment is surgery removal of parathyroid hormone glad via a l inch incision and can be even done under local and then bandaide and you leave in two hours for home. So that would solve that mystery. I also filled two jugs of 3000cc with urine. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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