Posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 9:48:48
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 20:55:41
> >Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection.
>
> Is this the filtration rate overall is lowered by the lithium oratate, meaning I assume that kidney function is impaired??That's what it means. Overall kidney function is impaired (decreased filtration rate), and fluid is being retained (decreased urine output), suggesting edema.
> OR the amount of lithium filtered out is lower than with a placebi...
Lithium clearance was also impaired, meaning that the ratio of plasma lithium to urine lithium has increased. I see that as a consequence of the decreased filtration rate. Other substances which should have left the body in urine would also be retained to a greater degree.
The article in question was comparing equal amounts of lithium, supplied as the carbonate or orotate. Just to put that into context, Serenity's proponents are suggesting that a vastly lower supply of lithium, as the orotate salt, is equivalent to the more typical dose of lithium carbonate. I can find no evidence of dose-ranging studies of that equivalence. Lithium orotate was tried in human trials back in the 70's, and was abandoned, although I'm having trouble finding out exactly why (modern references are far more informative).
> so do we have lithium in our blodd normally if we don't supplement?
Yes, but at nowhere near the concentrations seen after the use of lithium salts.
> <The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, >
> Lar, I only understand a glimmer of this and of the equilibrium between intra, inter cellular and blood stream and ion transfer etc..Without revisiting those concepts literally, I was describing processes which are driven by laws of nature. Wherever a high concentration of something exists, that concentration will tend to dissipate, via entropy. Wherever high concentrations of e.g. lithium ions exist in the body, that concentration will tend to be reduced by osmosis between compartments, and diffusion. So, as the kidneys dump lithium, concentrations of lithium will fall everywhere. The way the body gets around these laws of entropy is by employing transporters, energy-consuming ion pumps, in the case of lithium.
If there wasn't very much lithium to begin with (even the proponents of lithium orotate acknowledge there is little in the blood at any one time), then the brain cells will lose what little they have obtained (even if the orotate somehow navigates to the brain). Even the ion pumps will fail if there isn't very much lithium around to pump. There are other organs that have very high affinities for orotic acid (liver, kidney and heart), so there is little likelihood, IMHO, that the brain will get any sort of preferential delivery. Nor will it retain lithium when the concentration gradient runs "downhill" towards the bloodstream, and away from the brain.
> It seems they are saying that with oratate, the kidneys do not filter out the lithium as much, and yet there is MORE lithium in the heart, kidneys and presumably other organs..like brain, thyroid etc..and the kidney WEIGHT is increased..presumably as it is not functioning as well??
Probably edema, but I don't that's a good thing.
You will recall that I mentioned that the rat study used equivalent amounts of the two lithium salts. By whatever mechanism more lithium is retained in these tissues, current human dosage recommendations (as given at the Serenity site, for example) are so very low relative to therapeutic doses of the carbonate or citrate prescribed for mood stabilization, I cannot see how the orotate could possibly work, as described.
> <the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function.>
>
> So it looks like they may be saying you do get highrr levels in the organs but the kidneys are no longer filtering the blood efficiently, so the lithium stays in the kidney, brain, thyroid, heart etc and doesn't get removed as fast?That's what they're suggesting. Rather than a higher delivery/uptake rate, they're saying that the higher retention is due to kidney toxicity.
> Does this mean the kidnys themselves are not removing other things as fast also?..I'm assuming so..
I would make the same assumption.
> I have heard many folks swear that orotates were better and the way to go..eg. calcium orotate, magnesium oratate, potassium orotate.
> Does the oratate itself affect the kidneys ? and is this why the orotate form of minerals "works" betterQuite possibly. There is one profound form of ignorance carried over from generation to generation, which is epitomized by the existence of lists such as GRAS (generally recognized as safe), used for food additives, for example. Substances on that list have probably never been tested for safety. That we have used them for years, and no one has *obviously* died from their use, does not mean they are safe. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
At present, I will scrupulously avoid two forms of salts, those with orotate, and those with piccolinate.
> Like should we AVOID orotates as it may harm kidney function.You anticipate me well. :-)
> For others like me who have no idea on the kidneys , I came across this, which helps explain kidbey function
> http://rarediseases.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niddk.nih.gov%2Fhealth%2Fkidney%2Fpubs%2Fglomer%2Fglomer.htmI don't have time to go there right now, but I thank you for providing the references that you do. I've bookmarked many of them.
> I found this interesting as I had low albumin levels ..a tad below normal range.I'd have to look more closely, to see what that might suggest.
> I finally** got to see a neurologist yesterday at the hospital outpatients. They are going to check me out for Lupus as well as an EEG and MRI, and blood tests.Why lupus, in particular? My diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome (as it is for everyone's) was arrived at by determining that I did not have lupus or any other of the so-called rheumatic diseases. It's a diagnosis of exclusion.
> I decided NOT to go and get the blood tests yesterday as I have just been taking very large doses of camagnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid..mixed together with a little water and zinc picolinate and B6..as well as normal vits and fish oil etc I thought this may affect the blood tests , especially as one is for calc/ magnesium levels.
> How long will it take after I stop my high dose
> "safe chelation" regime..I have had amalgam removed and another tomorrow) before my blood levls of mibnerals return to my "normal" body levels? Would 2 weeks be OK?Two or three days should suffice. Two weeks would be better, just because you want to be sure your tests are representative of your body's homeostasis.
> ** This is a direct consequence of tyrosine allowing me to actually be assertive, or is that aggressive? I phoned around to find a neurologist,booked an appointment, said I had a referral from a GP...then got one, even though he had previously actually told me he wouldn't refer me. I just typed up a list of symptoms and said we had discussed this and he was going to refer me to a different neurologist privately, he hadn't.(some cheek hey)
Whatever works. Go girl!
> He had told me my tingling hands, feet, coordination, numbness, lack of muscular control, bladder etc had nothing to do with my brain and patiently explained in slow speech that these were peripheral and neurology was inside my brain...... and I was probably just hyperventilating and causing all my problems. The point is tyrosine has made me not allow myself to be content with only just being alive. and just be fobbed off. And I can see that my health needs at least looking at too, so that hopefully one day I can be better and go back to work etc,.
The peripheral neurological signs you describe are quite familiar to me. Been there, but not now. I wish I could tell you just what in particular I did about it, but there have been so many changes.
> The last time I trialled tyrosine , I ended up phoning a dentist and demanding that they give me another "free" appointment for my $120 fee. I had paid it up at the surgery,...before going on tyrosine after he had quickly dismissed me for an emergency case and just run my OPG thru a computer, gave me a printout of my fillings and never even looked inside my mouth or answered any of my questions about filling material.
> Without the tyrosine , I would just let myself get all upset..with the tyrosine I act..I like what I'm reading. That's an excellent testimonial to tyrosine supplementation.
> I know I don't need more than the 500mg tyrosine..I could get real aggressive
> Anyone else find this effect of tyrosine?
> Jan
I've been using DLPA, but I've just about run out. I've got some tyrosine. I'll let you know.Hugs,
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:230335
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256876.html