Posted by mattdds on September 26, 2003, at 21:43:58
In reply to Re: Fluoride » mattdds, posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 18:12:38
Hello,
>>I guess these links don't really show direct evidence
http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/references__9.html
http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/g_q_11_.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:m1EVuwBURjIC:www.espimetals.com/msds%27s/sodiumfluoride.pdf+fluoride+half+life&hl=enThe articles you quoted have some pretty major flaws. Most of the articles quoted are extremely outdated, and made some absurd claims trying to link oral cancer, gingivitis, and periodontitis to fluoride.
I just did a search on pubmed for "fluoride and hypothyroidism" and some other similar searches. I did find some endocrine studies that used extremely large doses of fluoride on rats to try to suppress the thyroid. But this cannot in any way be translated to epidemiology. In other words, there has been no study that I am aware of that shows increased rates of hypothyroidism from fluoridation or topical fluorides in a dental care setting. Heck, if you drink distilled water in large enough amounts, it will kill you.
> All the claims I've seen connecting fluoride with (insert disease), have tended to be hyperbolic and not based on real hard evidence. You can find similarly spectacular claims about dental amalgam (silver fillings).
>
>isn't this similar to tobacco smoke?I have no idea what you mean by this. I think you would have a very difficult time comparing dental amalgam to smoking in terms of toxicity. There really is no comparison. But that's a totally different story.
> Of course, if you hold a belief that fluoride is causing your problems, this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the experiment would backfire. So, in a sense, your *beliefs* regarding fluoride, rather than the fluoride itself, could be the problem.
>
>I've always been uncomfortable with these arguments.Notice I said beliefs about fluoride *could* influence mood. An example: what if you erroneously believed that you ingested a toxic substance? Wouldn't you react with panic, regardless of whether it was really toxic or not?
You're assuming, by default, that it was the fluoride that induced depression. How do you know this, and how can I reliably arrive at the same conclusion? Now I'm not saying it's impossible that fluoride was the culprit, I just don't see any evidence for it, so the burden of proof is with you (if that is what you're arguing).
I am just pointing out that there is a *possibility* (great likelihood in my opinion) that beliefs about fluoride will influence symptoms. Fluoride, at levels used clinically, is not associated with any disease. Otherwise, entire cities would have increased rates of certain diseases. Reality is that the only disease that changes is dental caries, and quite obviously for the better.
What makes you uncomfortable with the idea that beliefs can influence symptoms? It's a pretty widely accepted idea. I hope you will at least concede that this does sometimes occur.
>>As always, in moderation.
Right. 1 ppm in drinking water is the level determined to have the most benefits with fewest adverse effects. Prevident is not meant for long term use, and certainly not meant to be ingested. It is mainly used for incipient decay that can be reversed so you don't have to drill it out. So in that sense, you may be saving yourself from the dreaded amalgam (or bis-GMA resins - even worse according to some scaremongers) by using fluoride. You will also save a heck of a lot of tooth structure. Take your pick.
>>u just can't afford to use all bottled mineral water.
Nor would you want to. I see kids in my pediatric rotation come in whose mothers did not let them drink tap water and only had bottled. They tend to have mouths with rampant decay. The mother typically says the child brushes regularly, and eats a normal diet. It's really sad to see kids with mouths in that bad of shape, and in my opinion, it could be considered neglect. In fact, bottled water intake is considered a *risk factor* for dental decay on our patient charts. Then, I see kids come in, who never brush their teeth, but drink tap water, and have no cavities.
>and it also has its own problems.
The problem with fluoridating water is, the consumers really do not have any choice in being unable to remove it, without removing all beneficial minerals etc thru expensive, slow reverse osmosis.It really is a public health issue. Nobody is trying to poison you. Now, think about it. If dentists wanted to make money, wouldn't they be telling you about how bad fluoride is? Wouldn't all the dental industry be skewing the data against fluoridation so they could push more expensive restorative materials and treatments? Believe me, there is a lot of money at stake here, and if there were *any* reliable evidence that fluoride induced psych disorders, we dentists would be happy to revert back to the days of "drilling, filling and billing", if it were in the patient's best interest.
>>Fluoridating toothpaste..you have a choice. Although the non fluoride toothpastes have been removed from most big supermarkets lately
Topical fluoride in the form of toothpaste is *not* a substitute for *systemic* ingestion via water. It needs to be chronically given during tooth development so it incorporates fully into the tooth structure. Otherwise, with toothpaste, it doensn't penetrate past the outer layer. Also, kids usually "choose" not to brush their teeth anyway!
I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm afraid it's too late. :). I'm not out to poison anybody, and I don't make a dime off fluoride. I just think the burden of proof is pretty big if you are going to argue that fluoride causes psychiatric or endocrine disorders.
Best,
Matt
poster:mattdds
thread:263511
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030923/msgs/263631.html