Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2006, at 3:49:53
In reply to Re: benzo's for anxiety (which one?) » yxibow, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 1:59:29
> > Not that I am suggesting it at all, but yes, if you push through the sleepy part...
>
> Yeah that is the one. And you can do something or other to make it stronger (though don't try this at home because it can be quite dangerous. And you are right... The come down isn't much fun at all).Splitting capsules ? Doesn't really make too much of a difference. But as I say:
--------------------
..and not to mention annoy Dr. Bob, so we shall not discuss it here -- I do not want to get the board into trouble with recreational use stories, plenty of which is available elsewhere
---------------------
>
> > repeated use would probably lower this effect.
>
> Yes. That is what tolerance is. You need to take more... and more... to have the same effect. Some people (who take lowish dosages) don't find that a tolerance develops. But if you quite like a feeling of deep relaxation or general wellbeing or something and you find that n dosage does it for you... Then over time you typically need n+1 and then n+2 etc just to achieve the same effect. I'm not sure how long tolerance typically takes... In the new ethicals (doctors medication manual) I think it says to not prescribe benzo's for more that 5-7 days (typically) so I figure that longer than that would mean you get withdrawalsTypically that was the prescription for pseudobenzodiazepines (they act indirectly at the hypnotic part of BZ/GABA) such as Ambien and Sonata, but it is now generally felt that Ambien can be long term used (hence the patent extender Ambien CR) -- Sonata, I dunno, it was sort of useless for me... and Lunesta was created for long term use as well.
... But tolerance... I think you might get a little bit of a lesser effect the second night. But I guess everybodies body is different and people metabolise things differently etc etc.
We've beaten a dead horse, unicorn, and I keep inventing new phrases.... on the board about tolerance and withdrawal and habituation and addictiveness...
For me, tolerance is the body's idiosyncratic buildup for a medication that requires increased doses in some individuals.
Withdrawal is an unnecessary symptom of removing a medication that could be avoided by tapering it off more slowly, though that can't always be done for a variety of reasons (such as X medicine becomes toxic and needs to be dropped immediately)
Habituation is basically another way of describing tolerance, it is the progression of tolerance
Addictiveness and addiction are another world entirely; there is no practical medical reason for taking substance X or substance X at dose Y, and some individuals unfortunately perhaps due to genetics or other factors are subject to this.
Other people will naturally have other arguments to these definitions as I have said, we could start beating a dead.. oh I dunno.. rhinoceros.
Very much different -- a large majority of people can take a specified quantity of benzodiazepines for years -- in fact there are people who have taken Valium since it came out in 1960 -- with no sequelae and no progression/regression. Some people may be genetically disposed to dependence, e.g. alcoholism, or other related factors that unfortunately can result in dose escalation. Some doctors don't monitor things properly. It all depends. Certain benzodiazepines shouldn't really be prescribed for long periods of time (e.g. Dalmane, Restoril, Halcion) although some people are perfectly fine with such a regimen. And Xanax is another problem case for some people because it can have a half life as little as 4-6 hours. It is best used as a PRN (as needed for anxiety, etc.) medication.>
> > it'd be nice if psychiatric medicines were allowed to make you feel good.
>
> Yeah I know what you mean. I think that the reason why they aren't 'allowed' to make you feel good / high is that anything that tends to get you feeling high you tend to need more of it to achieve the same effect then more then more then more. And then when you stop taking it you have a worse problem than you had before you ever started taking the darned stuff.
>
> I found that with imovane / zopiclone / zotab. used to take it for sleep... then i was up to 2 per day over maybe 4 years... and i had the same trouble sleeping as i had before i started taking the damned stuff. i managed to kick it but really struggled for maybe two weeks. was starting to get major hallucinations and having crying fits etc because i couldn't sleep for 4 nights and then only in fits and bursts. don't ever want to go through anything like that again.
Imovane... so I gather you're Canadian or European. We now have the metally tasty eszopiclone (Lunesta) that is practically advertised on every major station. I'm a lifelong insomniac, and I can use it at 3mg but it does have that metal taste until you go to sleep. Some say it persists into morning. I never had that experience personally. I currently take 20mg Ambien, I have taken 15-20mg Ambien for a long time. It probably doesnt work completely these days by itself, but in concerto with Seroquel to insure proper REM sleep.>
> > I sometimes think that the "feel good" transmitters only operate once or after a long period of disuse)
>
> Yeah. I think the neurotransmitter is produced in a certain amount every day. When you take something your body throws out a couple days supply all in the space of 8 hours or something like that. Taking the drug doesn't mean you have more transmitter - it is just that your body releases its supply that it has made itself. That is why you feel all flat afterwards. Because you don't have any left. And it takes a few days for your body to build up a supply again.
>
> That is very very crude. But that is how I think of it...Yeah, that's one explanation... the near psychedelic experience (and I don't do drugs recreationally, not that I have anything against pot, but that's about as far as I believe in recreational things -- anyhow I've never taken any of the above) with Ambien once, I can't explain. Who knows, maybe it was the combination of Effexor and Ambien at the time, I'll never know but I literally felt like I was being coerced into a womb or something, it was very peaceful. And a one time deal. Maybe also having to do with taking a midterm on one hour of sleep. I think that was the discontinuation of Effexor.
>
> > As for myself, I've taken large dose diazepam (Valium) for an extended period of time with some slight escalation of dosage but I don't believe the escalation is because I crave more, but the illness shifts directions at times. Who knows, its hard to say.
>
> yep. how much of a dosage did you start with? every day? did you take it in the morning or the evening or both?
I started out actually with around 8mg of Klonopin (this is a very complicated and nasty visual + other somatiform disorder which would take quite a while to explain -- the border of Klonopin is normally around 4mg or so for panic and the like although it can be dosed to 20mg for epilepsy), and did the "great Valium experiment" of crosstaper. Eventually the crosstaper was made better by adding the Valium before the Klonopin.
I take approximately the same equivalency in the morning as the evening of Valium now. About 30% in the early afternoon and 70% in the mid evening. I think it is slightly better than the Klonopin era; its hard to say, maybe that's just placebo effect, but Valium provides slightly more of an immediacy effect, its onset is earlier than Klonopin and it may have more profound effect on certain anxiety attributes for me in particular.
poster:yxibow
thread:624663
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060322/msgs/624743.html