Posted by linkadge on July 30, 2006, at 0:46:41
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by SLS on July 29, 2006, at 23:13:16
>It might be significant that it occurs at all, >though.To say that a psychotic reaction exists is not necessarily sufficiant (IMHO) to ban the substance from those who do attain benifit. Its the same with the TCA's. They can cause psychosis, but this does not negate there theraputic potential.
>I think it becomes important to view >schizophrenia as a disease with a >multifactorial etiology. Much of the disease >process is programmed genetically and lies >waiting for biological cues. Twin studies >provide evidence that genetics alone do not >determine its evolution. Epigenetic factors are >at work, which include psychosocial and >physiological aspects. Marijuana use can >produce alterations in both of these components >of psychobiological function, and perhaps acts >to trigger the advancement of the disease >process. Marijuana itself might not act >directly on cellular structure to change the >morphology of the brain and enlarge the >ventricals, but its placing stress on the >system as a whole might produce a cascade of >events that leads to this.
It is my opinion that those with schizophrenia who try the substance may find that it may lead to more dramatic changes than a regular person. Marajuanna can lead to a very rapid amelioration of overactive HPA axis function for instance.
>The number of studies demonstrating a positive >association between the two is scary. I would >begin to contemplate the possibility of an >inconveniently untoward scenario.
I think the association is just as strong between caffiene and schizophrenia, but I would not suggest that caffiene causes schizophrenia. Show me one article that conclusivly links one to the other.
>I think this is a very likely motivation for >people with schizophrenia to smoke marijuana >once they become sick. However, this does not >preclude the possibility that smoking pot >helped them get them sick in the first place.
Unless you can prove a direct association (which has not been done), its not really fair to implicate the substance, otherwise you work to promote a negative opinion which might impede progress in the area. For instaance, how long has the notion that marajuanna kills brain cells been around? There is little evidence to suggest this, and infact there is evidence to suggest the opposite.
http://biopsychiatry.com/cannabinoids-neogenesis.htm
Because of my cluster of symptoms, I was imediately drawn to the effect that the substance had. If I had been dignosed with a mental illness after using it, the false assumption would be that one caused the other.
>That's one part of the psychosocial stuff I >mentioned. The other part is represented by the >psychotropic effects of the drug. The scope of >the psychobiological alterations produced by >smoking marijuana goes beyond stimulating a few >more CB1 receptors.
Yeah, less CRH, increased neurogenesis, pain relief, appetite increase, improved sleep etc, neuroprotection, potential mood stabilization. To me it comes as no suprise. It seems there may
be strong genetic links between bipolar and schizophrenia. To me, it comes as no suprise that a (growing) group of bipolar individuals claim the substance has mood stabalizing properties. People don't make that claim for other abusable substances. (Nobody ever claimed that cocaine helped their bipolar.)http://cannabis.net/bipolar-disorder/index.html
>Even if there were some compounds in there with >these properties, what is the net effect of all >the compounds taken together?
You're right, more research needs to be done. At this stage, I'm not condoning the *promotion* of the substance for these disorders, I am simply suggesting that those who do find it of theraputic potential be allowed to use it legally.
>I'll need to investigate this stuff a lot >further to be of any use to anyone, but I >thought most of what THC did to dopaminergic >pathways was stimulatory, not inhibitory. I >guess it must depend on what circuits are >involved.
You are right, the substance does activate the pleasure circutry, and for that reason it has been viewed as evil. This effect does not make it a stimulant though. Opiates will also increase dopamine in the NAA, but that does not mean they will make you go on a wild spening spree. It just might mean the substance is rewarding to some degree.
Even this needs to be taken in context. With crack for instance, a mouse will self inject without regard for food or water till they die. This simply does not happen with marajuana. The mouse will get stoned, then it will stop self administering. It will still find time to eat and sleep. Marajuanna displays very different reinforcement patterns than other drugs of abuse.
It has a very long biological half life meaning that withdrawl for most people is no reason to jump off a bridge.
> In many ways the cannabis/schizoprenia link was used to a high degree as part of anti drug propeganda.>Perhaps. On the other hand, perhaps it is >simply being used as a fact. I am not convinced >one way or the other. I am really very new to >all of this. Keep in mind that there are >substances out there that can produce a >lifetime of psychedelic flashbacks that are >unwanted and refractory to remediation.
It is not a fact. It has been previously assumed, but without much formal proof.
It is a very difficult thing to proove, and all we really have still is an association.I am not saying that people can't have bad experiences with the substance. I personally have really bad flashbacks to the time I was given a combination of ritalin, remeron, and zoloft, or even lithium and celexa has given me a form of HPPD.
I'm not trying to dismiss such cases, I guess I am just suggesting that people rethink some of the misconceptions. I've certainly had to rethink some of the misconceptions I had about prescription antidepressants. I mean, can you believe that I was under the misconception that they weren't addictive? (excuse the sacasm :))
>Unfortunately, I think the case for marijuana >exacerbating schizophrenia looks stronger than >does the case for its impairing memory function.
Well, it has been touted (without much formal investigation), that marajuanna users are at higher risk for depression. Unfounded?
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Largest-Ever Study of Marijuana, Depression Finds Fewer Depressive Symptoms, Better Mood
ALBANY, NEW YORK—In the largest-ever study of marijuana and depression, to be published in the journal Addictive Behaviors, daily or weekly marijuana users had fewer symptoms of depression than non-users. Marijuana users were also more likely to report positive moods and fewer somatic complaints such as sleeplessness. Noteworthy differences were also found between those using marijuana for medical purposes and non-medical or "recreational" users.
..
"Not only does marijuana not cause depression, it looks like it may actually alleviate it," said Mitch Earleywine, co-author of the new study and associate professor of psychology at the University at Albany, State University of New York.
------------This would fit nicely with the recent evidence that marajuanna (unlike other drugs of abuse), may promotes neurogenesis.
I think the following article is a fair assessment, it says a lot of what has been said here. They said they found a small link between onset in cannabis users with a low acting version of COMT only. Those without the varient showed no increase onset.
http://cannabisnews.com/news/21/thread21523.shtml
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:670781
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060724/msgs/671915.html