Posted by Larry Hoover on April 21, 2008, at 19:11:50
In reply to Re: They just don't work. FACT., posted by 49er on April 21, 2008, at 17:26:09
You know what? My intent was not to convince anyone to believe in drugs. It was to clear up the erroneous statements being made in the guise of being scientific findings. The truth is in the data.
It seems to me that people believe what they want to believe, notwithstanding the truth.
> Effectiveness - Lar, I am going to even attempt to refute you on Kirsh's studies because I would lose big time <smile>. However, the Star-D study revealed a 33% success rate which isn't exactly stellar. Some researchers were even mentioning a lower rate but to be fair, I will leave at at the 33% rate.
Just for the record, the main outcome measure of STAR*D: "The QIDS-SR(16) remission rates were 36.8%, 30.6%, 13.7%, and 13.0% for the first, second, third, and fourth acute treatment steps, respectively. The overall cumulative remission rate was 67%."
I think you will find the remission rate was 67%, not 33%.
> On the National Institute of Mental Health Website, it states a 50% success rate for a 50% reduction of symptoms. If you're going for complete remission, the success rate is even lower.
And what is the practical alternative? There is no placebo treatment protocol available to the general public. It is an artefact of the double-blind drug trial process.
> If those figures were alot higher, than I might think Kirsh was off target.
My argument is not with respect to the magnitude of the response to drugs, it is that is superior to placebo.
> But in light of that fact they aren't and because of the arguments presented by Linkage and Betula, I definitely agree with him.
What specifically do you agree with?
> I also think effectiveness has a different meaning for everyone.
And it's hard to understand another's success, if you have not tasted of it yourself. I do understand.
> Some might say they were effective for me. But as Betula mentioned about SSRIS, these meds made me so apathetic that I let so many things slide in my life. But what is scarier is I didn't realize what these meds were doing until I started tapering.
I don't stay on them, for just those reasons.
> Jealousy - I am not jealous at all of people whose meds work. To be honest, I am thankful everyday that I saw the light on what these meds were doing to me before it was too late. I suffered a mild to moderate hearing loss from Remeron, tinnitus, memory loss, executive function problems, and worsening in general of LD symptoms.
I want to raise another concern of mine, one that is seldom appreciated. Antidepressants have never been shown to be complete treatments for the symptoms of depression. Functional MRI and SPECT scans of brain function both show that regions of dysfunction remain, even if the subject is in full remission of depressive symptoms. Antidepressants drive normalization of some functions, but the underlying disease process continues in other respects. Appart from tinnitus (which can come from NSAIDS, as an example), the symptoms you describe can be ascribed to depression. I'm not saying that they are depression, and not drug-related. I'm suggesting that there is no way to discriminate between the options.
> I have read on other boards that people would still chose meds for a good quality of life even if they knew there were be horrific side effects down the road. Well, in the 12 years, I was on meds, I really only had 1.5 great years. So I don't feel that is a reasonable trade-off.
I wish you'd had greater success.
> Relapses - I hate to sound like broken record but in my opinion, which is backed by the registered nurse who runs the Paxil Progress Boards, most withdrawal symptoms are commonly confused as a relapse. Doctors unintentionally advocate a way too fast tapering system.That's why we're here, to offer better advice. ;-)
> Whether I am a bad influence and discouraging people - To quote Bob, Don't necessarily believe everything you hear. Your mileage may vary. The only posts I take responsibility for are my own.
>
> Obviously, everyone on this board has to make up their own mind what works for them. But please don't accuse me of being a troll because I chose a different path. We all want the same thing even if we go about it differently.
>
> 49erI'm glad you joined the discussion.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:823248
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20080420/msgs/824647.html