Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 15:22:13
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 8:20:55
> > I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.
>
> OK, so I have to admit to being more complicated yet again.You and me both. I've had so many paradoxical drug reactions, side-effects not listed in those lists, severe adverse reactions, etc., my psychiatrist is no longer much surprised by anything I tell him. However, it is my experience(s) with meds which has forced me to look at nutrients as interventions, and I'm getting results.
> I have found, always I think, but at least in the past 20 years, that I can feel to an extent with Caine anesthetics, if they are not given with adrenaline.
> To be more precise, with Xylocaine..no adrenaline, I go tissue numb after a while(I think my old dentist used to give me about 10-15mins?, but can feel at least to some extend the nerve pain when touched, even if give 2 needles. If given Xylocaine with 1% adrenaline I'd pretty much feel nothing..(every time)The adrenaline is a vasoconstrictor, and inhibits circulatory losses. It makes short-acting anaesthetics more effective.
> I've had 2 injections now with prilocaine.
> 29/8/03 and 6 days later 4/9/03.
> Getting beyond my knowledge here..the second on I think into tissue in front of tooth..upper tooth(probably between 7 & 8 tooth);
> First needle he said he gave me directly(lower left hand side no 5 tooth) ..I THINK that is what he said re the "style" of injection..both felt much the same to me..
> First needle...dentist asking me if it was numb..I would say no
> Then asked me if it was tingling and tapped outer lip, on both sides..I said yep..but then it's the same as the other side.. my lips and surrounds often tingle..to various degrees, probably more at night..part of the PN
> It did start tingling a bit more on that side after a while. So he started.(probably 5 minutes longer than expected?, sorry may not be accurate)
>
> It was not deep, so I could feel it but not near a nerve. ...it was a test tooth.
> He said he would give me more anaesthetic next time then. (on questioning now he siad he didn't , only a different style of injection)
> From my notes .."didn't really take", went a bit more tingly, but could still feel face
>
> tired when got home, headache recorded for next 3 days..and no activity, so probably pretty wiped out. seemed to be Ok next day
>
> I asked if I could please have the xylocaine with 1% adrenaline, but he said he didn't like using that as he's experienced patients with heart racing etc from adrenaline...sighThere is an increased risk of that, but he's trained to manage the situation. I think the dentist is more interested in himself, than in your situation. The adverse reaction you describe from prilocaine is more serious than what you risk from adrenaline, IMHO.
> Also have problems with nerves and pain in upper left back side just above teeth..feels like a combo of tooth pain from a hole, sinus and can go up to behind eye...
> Started when got hit by a light cover which hit me (1999)(incorrectly fitted) but this probably just showed another problem.
> I had pain in the no 6 tooth from then on..kept telling a dentist it was painful and they wouldn't believe me as no hole. then I felt with my tongue a big gap at top of tooth.
> Turned out in the end the gum had grown inside of tooth and eaten tooth from inside.
> Health fund had me down for endodontist..but while waiting, my tooth apparently created dental history with speed of being eaten away..they've kept it s a specimen....really!(and they have xrays and know time take etc)..changed the whole of the health fund dental practise, they employed more staff etc.
> Got that tooth pulled, but pain persisted.
>
> Last dentist told me this gum inside tooth business can happen as a side effect of orthodontistry work as a kid..and that fits.
>
> So something is "up" with these nerves at top that run along teeth 6,7,8, LHSThere are a number of theories about why that may occur. See if you can get some botox injected there?
> ..and 2nd time he was filling this no8 tooth. It didn't hurt before he started, lol.
> He managed to strike the nerve..I told him..but he didn't seem to get it..and just kept going. Would have preferred if he had stopped tried to see and line nerve or something and left the tiny bit of remaining amalgam there!
> Just put filling in.
> Tooth nerve has hurt since varying over the days..3 weeks last Thursday.
> I do have an appointment with a pain clinic arranged a few months ago...so I'm a difficult patient!They're the right folks, pain clinics. They won't trivialize your pain.
> (although the questionnaire is a "joke", like do you always do exactly what your doctor tells you to do, and takes medds as prescribed.....psychologically based..you get an hr with a psychologist first compulsory)unsure howto fuill in as multiple choice mostly, sigh
They need to know about compliance, and about drug-seeking. Talk with them about the ones you don't know how to answer, and tell them why you're unsure.
> >
> > There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangements.
> >
>
> Ta, lucky you didn't say that to me about 2 years ago when the PN started (as part presumably of a strange reaction I had to "T4-only" meds) <grin>I'm baffled by your difficulty in achieving anaesthesia. Be sure to ask the pain clinic folks. It may be something they can clear up for you.
> It's over 95% beter now I'd say.
That's good.
> > I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
>
> >
> > > This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
> >
> > There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
> >
> > With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
> >
> > > It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> > > and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
> > >
> > > I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jan
> >
> > Those latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc.
>
>
> Now this really stunned me.Oh?
> not that I know anything about COX inhibitor ..I've only heard the name before..still have to learn about.
Here's more than you probably wanted to know:
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lox.htm
http://web6.duc.auburn.edu/~deruija/prostaglandins_2002.pdf> BUT the reason I didn't go to that pain clinic at a teaching hospital.(I've heard they they to work alternative treatments for like homeopathy,..or put you on morphine etc)
I understood that you had an upcoming appointment. No?
> has to do with
> I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a whileSo, why did you stop taking it?
> So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
> And since it does seem to reduce the pain level,..sometimes a little sometimes more.Because it cuts the intensity of the aggravating chemical barrage on the sensory nerves.
> also the pain sometimes now goes away for a while..and I had tried tumeric twice after reading your posts regarding antiinflammatory action..so now I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.
Did turmeric work? It's great for my pain (and I have more than my fair share of that, too).
> Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.Why?
> I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
Why use an irritant?
> Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
> so its kinda all linked in here Lar.I'm seeing that.
> I'm going for an EEG tomorrow morning..I have no idea, but do you or anyone know if an EEG would show this tingling.No, EEG is a brain thing entirely. There are nerve conduction studies (I've had one), and they actually insert electrodes into the nerves in your extremities and artificially induce them (i.e. they run electricity through them), and measure the responsiveness.
> Like should I eat some more nitrates in the morning..or give myself a B12 needle before the EEG in the hopes it show something..or wouldn't it show anyway..or would it be better NOt to have it show.
Let them measure your most typical way of being. If you fudge things, you may hide the very thing that might give them an idea how to help you.
> >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
> I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..
>
> Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted klike magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
> Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!Ya, I got this far.
> and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> Going to apply some clove oil. nowClove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
> Hugs, JanTake care, sweetheart. You're not going to mess anything up if you take some ibuprofen.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:259730
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263988.html