Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2004, at 8:29:03
In reply to Re: DL-Phenylalanine + Caffeine « 1980Monroe, posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 2004, at 7:24:57
Re: Survector(amineptine),NADH, DL-Phenalalinine a » douglass
Posted by rod on April 10, 2004, at 7:47:04
In reply to Survector(amineptine),NADH, DL-Phenalalinine and s » btnd, posted by douglass on April 9, 2004, at 22:01:14
> I had more energy to do things, my thoughts were more productive as I was near vegetative in my thinking and they came much more easily. I had motivation to start new projects and see them to the end and get much satisfaction out of simple tasks. My socializing was improving so I didn't feel I had to go out of my way not to talk to peope, I would engadge in conversations. My ability to listen and carry on a two way conversation was such a good feeling after so many years being silent.
That sounds just like me. I am also so unpruductive, silent (reminds me of "poverty of speech" in negative schizophrenia, and dopamine plays a big role in that)
I am almost sure I would get full respone to amineptine.> I also take klonopin 2mg/day for anxiety and found a synergystic affect also but that synergy pooped out after a couple months
The funny thing about Klonopin is, that its also very effective in treating Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) (severe understimulation of dopamine receptors). So it indeed posesses some pro-dopamine abilities. It gives me a mild antidepressive effect. Like the Antihistaminc drug Diphenhydramine, which is also effective in NMS, and even is a weak dopamine reuptake inhibitor. And (as far as its known) its pro dopamine effect is also by Histamine antag (Histamine - Dopanie Balance) and Anitmuscarinic (Achetylcholine - Dopamine Balance). So dopamine plays a key role for me, it seems.
> I started to find out about some precursors to dopamine and DL-Phenalalinine was the best at 2000mg/day, L-Tyrosine was also of some benefit, but it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier as easily as DL Phenalalinine.(these medium to large sized molecules of amino acids have to be taken on an empty stomach as there is competition with other amino acids to cross the BBB ).
Ahh now I know why L-Tyrosine does not do any good. Thanks for the info.
>I have not experienced any poop out as others have with amineptine, maybe it;s the DL Phenalalinine
How long were you on Amineptine?
>that keeps raw material for the production of dopamine steady as the body needs it.There is a rate limiting factor of an enzyme that turns DL Phenal. to Tyrosine, which is turned to dopamine, then seratonine and melatonin.
No offense, but as far as I know, Tyrosine has nothing to do with serotonin or melatonin. L-Tryptophan is the precursor of the Serotonin stuff.
Roland
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Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety?what about NAD » zeugma
Posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 8:16:21
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » Viridis, posted by zeugma on April 10, 2004, at 6:13:36
There are many reasone for low energy output. GI problems certainly would be a cause alom
ng with fungus infection, mitochondrial dysfunction etc. The people who suffer from low energy in the greatest numbers seem to be the ones with chronic fatigue syndrome, or a form of myalgia.a neurologist who did the major studies on selegeline for parkinsons also did the research for NADH(dihydr adenine dinucleotide hydrate). It's a major player in the krebs cycle which in the mitochondria is the citric acid reaction which it's end product is the manufacture of opure energy in the form of ATP(adenosine tri phosphate). when energyis required ATP is reduced tp ADP(Diphosphate) which is a release of energy for work. This is further reduced to AMP(Monophosphate) which in itself is not a =n anergy molecule but must be returned to the mitochondria to attach two morw phosphatemolecules for ATRP to be generated for work. This cycle goes on unmteen times in the body as energy for work is required.
In order for the krebs reaction to work, there are certainnytrients needed that are essential for the production of energy. Any one of these and the cycle stops it's reaction. The mitochondria where all this takes place is known as the furnace of the cell or cellular respiration. This is a complicated procedure and as we age the substances needed to fire the reaction become less in number, hence a reduction of energy, which is the major complaint of the elderly. Disease states can cause a malfunction of the mitochondria along with some drugs, our life style and the foods we eat. Then there are specific diseases, mostly hereditary, of the mitochondria itself. There is a renewed interest in mitochondria health and there are many supplements we can take to provide the raw material for krebs reaction to occur.
The mitochondria are found in every cell, some have more than others because the organ it makes up requires more energy. The heart muscle contains thousands more mitochondria than striated muscle, the next mitochondria rich organ is the retina but all organs have excess numbers to maintain proper functioning of the organ, and energy production is one factor, albeit a most important one, that helps to maintain good organ/system functioning. Diseased organs obviously need more energy to maintain it'ds normal functioning than usual.
I failed to mention that NADH, a form of vit A, is euphamystically called the spark plug that fires the chemicals to oxidize. I'mnot supposed to give e mail addressews here, but if one were to google NADH, about the first site is an excellent write up with animated pictures of how NADH works at the cellular level and give you a far more understanding of it than I can. I'm not promoting NADH only to the point that It worked for me and my parents who are in their 80's and other people who swear by it. That they got their old "zip" back.
All this said, a Dr. Birkmyere reserched NADH and indeed found that when pure NADH was injected into the brains of animals it gave them more energy. The research was originally done for parkinsons to get more energy to the diseased neurons and the body in general.
This is basic physiology that every Dr. learns in his biochemistry and physiololgy classes. The major stumbling block was NADH was a very unstable product and got easily destroyed when given the usual routes.He knew that IF it could get past the barriers that break it down and into the cell, the mitochondria specifically, that more energy would be produced to help with the low energy levels that are causing organs to malfunction and become diseased.He developed a patentable form of stable NADH by his special enteric coated capsule that gets it past the gut, liver and into the blood stream where it's distributed to every cell in the body. Obviously some cells/organs demand more than others so the amount of NADH over all depletion requires that individuals find the proper dose for them. Because of the severe depletion in some it may take upwards to a few weeks to begin to feel a difference and others with less depletion only a few days. so the dose is very individually regulated. As you read about it it will become more clear how to adjust the dose.
There are few if any contradictons to it and no drug drug interACTION. iT'S VERY SAFE TO TAKE SEEINGS AS OUR BODYMAKES IT ITSELF.
mOST PEOPLE START OFF WITH 5MG AND ADJUST UP OR DOWN AS NEEDED. dR. bIRKMEYER SUGGEST THAT DISEASED, ELDERLY START OUT AT 5MG AND WORK YOUR WAY TO AS MUCH AS 20 MG AS THE 10MG/DAY ORIGINALLYSUGGESTED WASN'T ENOUGH. aFTER A WHILE THE DOSE CAN BE REDUCEDS.
tHIS IS THE ONLY SUPPLEMENT, otc, THAT HAS BEEN fda APPROVED FOR pARKINSON'S, CHRONIC FATIGUE DISORDER AND THE STUDIES ARE CONTINUING TODAY FOR OTHER DISEASES SUCH AS CARDIOMYOPATHY, Congestive heart failure.In CHFthe energy supply is so low the heart barely can keepupwith the demands of the body and re supplementing with BADH increases the heart with the energy it needs.
In general everyday energy demands where we feel listless, anergia. NADH gives the required energy one needs for a robust life style. It's not for just the failing and diseased persons but for the everyday perso who needs extra energy, and as we age it becomesa quality of life issue.
My mother at 82 was relegated to just sitting in her chair all day long. After the introduction of NADH, she found a new sense of energy, started in her garden again, got up every day and went out for breakfast for the socialization.
Birkmeyer found out NADH plays an important role in the synthesi of dpamine, which was what he wanted for his parkinson's Pt.'It is expensive, but Pro Health sells it at the lowest prices anywhere, they are assoc. with immune support or look under google for best pricing.
I firmly believe this substance found in most good health food stores or over the web will supply you with the lack of energy you so desperately need. Talk toyour Dr, although he may not be up tp speed on it which is why it;s importaNT TO DO THE RESEARCH YOURSELF AND BRING IT IN FOR HIM TO SEE.
The Gov't controlled NIDH did original studies for FDA approval.
I know this was long and laborious, but an understanding of how something works is important so you can make a more informative decision.
I admit I may have made some errors in the physiology part, but not enoughto dicount everytrhing I said. The first or second listing in google is an excellent site. I wouldn't do without my NADH dailyas I do notice a difference, and ecause it's pro dopaminergic you get some anti depressant effects also.
Another for consideration is SAMe, but I'll save that for another time.
I also went the strattera and then provigil trial and didn't find them to do whatthey claimed , at least forme.So I found my own drug regimen which my Pdoc approves of and monitors, amineptine is one with selegeline and DL Phenalalinine and dihydroepiandrosterone, but get tested before you use that one. I was down so we supplemented to a 25yo would statistically would be and I feel great with this regimen.I have major depression, anhedonia, anergia, dysthymia all secodary to combat PTSD.
douglass--
Re: Prozac for motivation ?? Enada NADH,Rhodiola?
Posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 8:49:57
In reply to Re: Prozac for motivation ?? Enada NADH,Rhodiola? » btnd, posted by Ame Sans Vie on April 9, 2004, at 20:09:10
yes Iuse enada NADH and find it stimulating. One warning I neglected in another postis if your prone to cycling to mania better not to take NADH as it will is some induce mania. Pro health is cheapest place for Enada, buy by the bulk, that is 60 tabd per box and buy two boxes and you come out with$ 0.50/pill, other wise it's $1,00/pill. I get it automatically shipped to me which is another 20% or so off
It MUST be the ENADA form of NADH as that is what was used in trials with NIDH for FDA approval
douglass--
Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? NADH » douglass
Posted by zeugma on April 10, 2004, at 17:26:31
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? NADH, posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 8:29:31
Thanks- that's a lot to take in- I have some SAM-e that I bought in December, when the Klonopin was making me so exhausted I could barely move. I've read a lot of conflicting information over whether it's safe to take SAM-e with so many medications (besides strattera and klonopin I also take a TCA and Buspar).
I will research the NADH. My anergia goes back a long way- I can remember as early as second grade, I would come home and collapse on my bed from total exhaustion. Even as early as then I was developing psychiatric problems (depression, anxiety, and I was diagnosed with ADD at 12). For some reason I'm very anxious today- I began shaking in the supermarket.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
poster:Dr. Bob
thread:334821
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040225/msgs/335454.html