Posted by Larry Hoover on December 7, 2004, at 10:12:07
In reply to Re: Sleep, selegiline and autoreceptors » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:16:16
> > Thinking itself can be too limiting. I know you don't want to waste time, or effort, but as we all know, paradoxical responses are paradoxical only with respect to thinking. They are, in fact, quite natural for the individual so responding.
>
> I have to admit that I am prejudiced in favor of this theory. I've spent a lot of time on it. I finally understand it and I now know what to do about it. I don't want to start over! <g> But I will try to keep my mind open to other explanations. I have a hard time thinking that this could just be natural for me though. Natural in the sense that I may have been born this way, yes, but not natural in the sense that it should work this way. My depressive symptoms fit the low dopamine mold so something around that process is not right.OK. Your intuition is on target. In my thinking, a "natural response" is my genes interacting with their environment. That's how you got to this place. As we think about it, it seems paradoxical. The solution to the problem may be itself paradoxical. That's the open-minded part, as the experiment that succeeds may not even fit with your primary hypothesis.
> > I did a little "go off the selegiline and see what happens" experiment, and boy howdy, did I go boom. Back on it, and the brain works, but I can't sleep worth a darn. Maybe I should see if I can get some phenobarbitol.
>
> So it works for you for both depression and cognition but the ampethamine metabolites are destroying your ability to sleep. How frustrating! Have you tried increasing the melatonin dosage per Ktemene's post?Yes, and at the dose suggested in those articles, I had vivid hypnogogic hallucinations. That's the almost asleep, brain doing movies thing.
> Too bad rasagiline isn't available yet! Does selegiline work better for you than all other ADs that you've tried? Are you still taking Solost?
No, I don't see the selegiline in an antidepressant light at all. It addresses focus and energy, rather than mood directly. Feeling better about my degree of functioning is antidepressant.
I am far far from Solost. I don't think SSRIs are part of my answer. People were telling me that my personality had changed, for the worse. That's not acceptable, given that the benefits were already tempered with major side effects.
As far as the best AD I've ever used, that is St. John's wort. No close seconds in the competition, either.Moclobemide was a good one at the beginning, but it pooped out rather quickly. I really don't want to have to deal with the MAOI diet, as I have food cravings for many foods which are explicitly forbidden. Mild MAOIs do work. I may have to give a serious trial of e.g. Parnate or Nardil, one of these days.
> > > > > 3) Do you know anything about the liquid selegiline citrate? I've read that it's better than the selegiline hydrochloride pills but I have a feeling that's more of a political issue than a therapeutic one.
> > > >
> > > > It's moot to me. Only the hydrochloride tablets available in Canada.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect the sublingual preparations are better tolerated, and may avoid first-pass metabolism transformations. In gut uptake, the drugs run an enzyme gauntlet in the intestinal wall and mesentery, and then pass via the portal vein to the liver, where they get another shot at being enzymatically transformed. It looks like selegiline is substantially affected by first-pass metabolism, so I see this as a pharmacological issue, not a political one.
>
> There is also a political issue surrounding the difficulty in finding the liquid citrate version here in the U.S. That's another story though.Ya, I looked into it. It looks like some guy tried to set himself up as a pharmaceutical supplier, though. Not a smart move.
> > > The selegiline citrate is a liquid - not sublingual. It goes through the stomach. So in that respect it would be a more equal comparison. Perhaps I will do the experiment at some point.
> >
> > I cannot see the point of having a liquid preparation of this drug (which is also available as a quick-dissolving tablet for sublingual use), if it is not for sublingual use. It may not say so on the label, but that's how I would use it, without question. And, also without question, sublingual use of the regular tablets has a greater beneficial effect, with fewer side effects. Avoiding first-pass metabolism seems to be an important aspect of omptimizing selegiline's effects.
>
> I tried putting the selegiline under my tongue so as to avoid the first-pass metabolism but it started burning and it tasted so unpleasant. I had to stop it before it completely dissolved.It does taste really sucky, I agree. You shouldn't leave the tablet in one place under your tongue. Slowly moving it around under there is best. You're going to swallow some, no question, but I just try to not swallow at all until the pill is dissolved, and maybe another minute more.
> I don't know how you're able to tolerate it that way unless you have one of the special forms that are made to be taken sublingually.
No, just the regular tablet. It actually dissolves more quickly than some sublingual supplements I have. I think your taste buds get used to the bitter taste. It doesn't seem so bad now.
> I'm going to see if I can find any more info on the citrate version and why some claim it's so much better.
>
> KaraThe only way I can get it is if I get my doctor to import it on my behalf. I asked. That ain't gonna happen. Too much paperwork.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:387192
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041123/msgs/425682.html