Posted by tealady on May 7, 2005, at 18:08:01
In reply to RE: SAMe experiment, subsequent downswing » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
> > > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > Well seeing as you asked and all...
> >
> > I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
> >
> > The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> > It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
> >
> > It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
> >
> > I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> > Maybe it's just coincidence ?
> >
> > Jan
> --------------------------------------> Hi Jan,
>
> Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
>
> It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
>
> As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
>I was thinking along those lines as well
> The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
>
> Here, DSCH, says:
>
> "I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
>I tried NADH http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/280564.html :-)
I stopped due to the depression but it did increase energy..strange.
You've got some posts there on SAMe and methyl donation..TMG etc and DHEA.
I am still taking DHEA, I found 20mg a day too much...testosterone way too high take 7.5mg compounded in a mulltiB.every day or two. Not sure if it does anything much at present. I'm hoping for some oestrogen conversion..but I think its mostly testosterone. It may help with anxiety..not sure.> There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
>
> Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
>
Well TMG is in my box I got from the US beginning of this year and I'm slowly working thru..probably next to try..although if it does donate a lot of methyl I'm not sure if I will go bad..so I'll leave it for a bit I think...unless someone can tell me why I need it., and that it'll be different to methylcobalamin in the methyl bit.I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
After the taurine I tired SAMe..I only had 1 packet of 20 (bought from US iherb)..I only order once a year usually as postage cost is about $60:-) I'd always suspected SAMe might help and I surprised at how well it worked. Better than any antiD I'd ever tried by orders of magnitude and fairly fast too.
So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
I go real bad on methylcobalamin. I tried this about 3 years ago..for about 18 mths.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261999.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/262127.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263744.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263813.html
this thread :-) LOL
never could figure that one out. I occasionally take a sublingual methylcobamin (I get those from the Us too)..but it always has a negative effect,..increases tingling, very wiped out, and slight colouring of palms, soles of feet. Feels a bit like capillaries getting affected somehow. But I seem to go Ok on dibencozide sublingual (that's the other b12 without the methyl bit). It's in http://www.iherb.com/coen.html . This is also a favourite of mine. Its a sublingual with all the coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 as well as B5, folate etc. I think its a good cover in case there is something I'm missing somewhere. I take these every 3 days or so..trying to make it last. (anther from the US). Doesn't provide any methyl ..and doesn't affect me negatively either. I can't say I notice a big positive either...I just take for insurance I guess.
> I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
>Yeah, I know what you mean :-)
> I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
>I'm pretty sure magnesium works by overloading the system and therefore changing the equilibrium..driving out whatever was there before and replacing with magnesium. Its much the same idea as water softeners..which replace the calcium or magnesium with sodium in the water..which feels softer and washes clothes better but is bad for the heart(an unexplined huge increse in an area where they used water softening ). The calcium/mag ions in the water gets withdrawn from the water and sodium ions the filter replaces the calcium/mag. You can "recharge' the falter by reverse flushing with strong sodium chloride..putting heaps in to change the equilibrium, thus flushing out the calcium/mag and replacing by sodium again..so you can reuse it. The balance(equilibrium) changes by overloading.
That's how magnesium works too I think..when you feel better after taking large doses.
it seemed to work for me when I went too high in iron last year. Took heaps of magnesium for any effect..but I think it musta lowered the iron and replaced whatever with magnesium..not sure where..but it was a relief.
That's why I was once wondering why the heck you needed so much magnesium...not that I didn't believe you, just I wondered what your problem may have been. I think you thought too much calcium?> I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artificially and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
>
> I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
>
> "The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11896744&dopt=Abstract
>
> You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
>
> I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
me either :-)) Like I said back in the pold posts..I still don't get this methylation stuff :-)
>
> Hang in there.Thanks JL
Jan
poster:tealady
thread:476058
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050414/msgs/494956.html