Psycho-Babble Alternative | about alternative treatments | Framed
This thread | Show all | Post follow-up | Start new thread | List of forums | Search | FAQ

Anxiety info from archives courtesy Ame Sans Vie

Posted by teejay on December 26, 2006, at 9:46:50

I'm posting this here instead of in the thread in hopes that someone else may benefit from it.

~~VITAMINS

1. Thiamine (Vitamin B1)
a.) Helps to convert carbohydrates into glucose; glucose together with oxygen is then converted into energy; because thiamine helps provide the nervous system with energy, it helps maintain CNS health.
b.) When thiamine is deficient, lactic acid (lactate) builds up in the brain; heightened lactic acid levels can cause panic attacks.
c.) Thiamine-deficiency has been linked to adrenaline overactivity, which triggers panic attacks.
d.) Thiamine triphosphate (a specific form of thiamine), when depleted in the sympathetic nervous system in the hypothalamus, will cause an increase in sympathetic nervous system activity; this causes overexcitation and nervousness.
e.) Clinicians use thiamine to treat nervous system disorders, such as Bell's palsy, multiple sclerosis, and neuritis.
f.) Helpful for skin conditions and tissue healing after surgery.
g.) Thiamine supplementation may be helpful for preventing and slowing the progression of Alzheimer's disease.
DOSAGE: 250-500mg three times daily

2. Choline
a.) Is important to nerve transmission because it protects the health of the sheath that wraps around nerve cells.
b.) Is a component of an important neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, which regulates mental performance and memory; due to this, it is often taken as a supplement for neurologic disorders (i.e. Alzheimer's disease).
c.) Supplementary choline has a very calming effect on the body; it is most beneficial when taken in combination with thiamine -- without it, thiamine will not be fully effective.
d.) Avoid using lecithin as a source of choline--it contains large amounts of phosphorous, which can be overly stimulating.
e.) Helpful for gallbladder and liver problems; choline may help liver cells regenerate more efficiently.
DOSAGE: 1,000mg three times daily (preferably in the form of CDP-Choline)

3. Biotin (Vitamin B4)
a.) Calms anxiety, possibly by aiding in the utilization of vitamins such as folic acid and pantothenic acid.
b.) Is essential to fat metabolism, and one function of fats is to make nerve cells healthier; for this reason, also helpful in weight-loss programs.
c.) Makes thiamine work more effectively.
d.) Maintains healthy skin and hair.
e.) Diabetics should take biotin to help support fat and carbohydrate metabolism.
DOSAGE: 300mcg daily

4. Niacinamide (Vitamin B3)
a.) Binds to the same receptors as prescription drugs such as Valium and Xanax, thus producing a strong anti-anxiety effect.
b.) Requires vitamin B6 (pyridoxal-5-phosphate) to be effective.
c.) Used to help lower cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood.
d.) Supports sugar metabolism.
e.) Reduces allergic reactions.
f.) Make sure to take niacinamide, NOT niacin.
DOSAGE: 200-500mg three times daily, or 1,500mg of the extended release form once or twice daily.

5. Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
a.) Is supportive to other vitamins, thiamine in particular.
b.) Improves cells' ability to utilize oxygen.
c.) Supplementation often necessary, as it can be difficult to obtain all we need from the foods we eat.
d.) Used in the formation and maintenance of eye tissues.
e.) Helps in treating stress and fatigue; helpful for relieving stress and is needed more by women taken estrogens or after antibiotic use.
f.) Used in tandem with P-5-P, riboflavin can cause a lift in mood.
DOSAGE: 100mg daily

6. P-5-P (Vitamin B6 / pyridoxal-5-phosphate)
a.) Helps amino acids in nerve transmission (e.g. tryptophan).
b.) Supportive to many vitamins that aid in controlling anxiety (i.e. niacinamide, thiamine).
c.) Needed for functions that turn food into energy, for protein metabolism, and for healthy nerves.
d.) A deficiency may create a greater tendency toward hypoglycemia, which can trigger panic attacks.
e.) P-5-P, while more expensive, is the active coenzyme of vitamin B6. Since a percentage of the population can't utilize the commonly sold pyridoxine form of the vitamin, it's a good idea to just use P-5-P.
f.) Clinically used for a variety of conditions, including PMS, pregnancy and associated nausea, carpal tunnel syndrome, problems of the nerves, and water retention.
DOSAGE: 50mg three times daily

7. Folic Acid / Folate (Vitamin B9)
a.) Is a coenzyme, or helper, to other vitamins and minerals.
b.) Helps stabilize the hormone system; sex hormone imbalance is one of the triggers to panic attacks.
c.) In the form of its co-factor tetrahydrofolic acid (THFA / tetrahyrdrofolate), it's an important nutrient for many metabolic functions (e.g. red blood cell formation [together with cobalamin], protein and amino acid metabolism and utilization)
d.) Deficiencies of folate have been linked to neurological birth defects.
DOSAGE: 400mcg daily

8. Pantothenic Acid / Pantothenate (Vitamin B5)
a.) Helpmate to thiamine and to the adrenal gland.
b.) Necessary for formation of sex hormones.
c.) Decreases lactic acid buildup by helping the body to eliminate it more rapidly.
d.) Used to treat stress and fatigue after surgery or during recovery from illness or injury.
e.) May help prevent and treat some forms of acne.
f.) Taken in tandem with ascorbic acid, pantothenic acid can help strengthen skin and promote healing of cuts and increase flexibility in scar tissue.
DOSAGE: 100mg three times daily

9. Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
a.) May be important in the production of neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and serotonin.
b.) Like choline, functions in creating nerve coverings, called myelin sheaths.
c.) Supports growth, appetite, and red blood cell production.
d.) Clinicians use cobalamin, oftentimes in the form of injections, for a wide range of problems affecting energy level, weight, and the nervous system.
e.) The sublingual form is preferred.
DOSAGE: 500mcg daily

10. Inositol
a.) Used in the body to help fat metabolism.
b.) Helps to prevent cardiovascular disease and viral infections.
c.) Supports healthy hair and skin.
d.) May exert a positive effect on mental alertness when patients with Alzheimer's disease are given up to 6 grams a day.
e.) Recent studies show positive results in patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder when doses between 12-14 grams daily are taken.
f.) The powder form is preferred.
DOSAGE: 1,000mg three times daily.

11. Ascorbic Acid / Ascorbate (Vitamin C)
a.) May decrease levels of the trace mineral vanadium in the body; high levels of vanadium have been found in the blood plasma and hair of depressed individuals.
b.) Promotes wound healing.
c.) Commonly used for supporting immune function and protection from viral disease and cancer.
d.) May be helpful in people with high cholesterol, cataracts, diabetes, allergies, asthma, and periodontal disease; as an antioxidant, it protects blood vessels and lenses in your eyes, and helps to keep body tissues strong.
e.) Popular for warding off and shortening the effects of the common cold.
f.) The crystals form is preferred.
DOSAGE: 2,000mg daily

12. Calciferol (Vitamin D)
a.) Helps your body utilize calcium, which is a very important mineral in the treatment of anxiety; also for this reason helps prevent tooth decay, heals fractures, and prevents osteoporosis when combined with adequate calcium and regular exercise.
DOSAGE: Your body manufactures vitamin D from sunshine; don't take supplements (which can actually cause problems), just get some sun

~~MINERALS

1. Calcium
a.) May promote a good night's sleep when taken before bed.
b.) Supports bone health, especially in women during and after menopause, for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis.
c.) Reduces muscle cramps and menstrual cramps.
d.) Prevents tooth decay.
e.) In many patients, calcium, in combination with other nutrients, has been found to be very helpful for mild to moderate cases of phobia and panic.
f.) Calcium controls pore-like openings that connect the inside of the cells to the outside.
g.) Calcium is the chemical responsible for releasing neurotransmitters across nerve synapses.
h.) Calcium is the structural skeleton of the cell.
i.) Calcium carries messages throughout the interior of the cells.
j.) Calcium plays an important role in cell energy.
k.) Acidity in the cells causes the lack of oxygen that sets of panic; calcium is a powerful alkalizer which neutralizes the acidity and allows more cell oxygenation.
l.) Lowering of calcium levels has been shown effective if the treatment of mania; likewise, raising calcium levels improves the moods of depressives.
m.) Calcium lactate is usually the best form to take for anxiety and mood disorders.
DOSAGE: 1,200mg daily

2. Magnesium
a.) Relaxes muscles, including the heart.
b.) Works in concert with enzymes to carry out metabolic functions, including protein synthesis, energy production, and neuromuscular function.
c.) Used for poor sleep, anxiety, menstrual cramps, muscle cramps, muscle spasms, high blood pressure, asthma attacks, and abnormal heartbeats.
d.) The best form of magnesium to take for mood and anxiety disorders is generally magnesium glycinate.
DOSAGE: 1,000mg daily

3. Chromium
a.) Facilitates the entrance of glucose into your cells, via insulin, and is a requirement for energy.
b.) May improve cholesterol levels by improving its metabolism.
c.) Crucial to blood sugar and cholesterol metabolism and has become popular in weight-loss programs
d.) Never use the picolinate form of chromium -- studies show it may cause DNA damage. Use the polynicotinate form.
DOSAGE: 200-400mcg twice daily, with food

4. Manganese
a.) Activates many enzymes in cell metabolism.
b.) Helps your body to utilize several vitamins (e.g. thiamine, choline, and ascorbic acid).
c.) Helps with protein and amino acid utilization and digestion.
d.) Used therapeutically to correct deficiency and to balance zinc and copper.
e.) May help blood sugar levels in diabetes.
f.) May improve neurological disorders.
DOSAGE: You should get all you need from your daily multivitamin/mineral/amino acid supplement.

5. Zinc
a.) Functions in a multitude of enzymes -- for alcohol and amino acid metabolism, protein digestion, and energy production, as well as in immune function and in the body's fight against damaging free radicals.
b.) Men should use supplemental zinc to support good prostate and reproductive health.
c.) Particularly important for adolescents during sexual development.
d.) Used to support optimum immune function.
e.) May protect against the toxic effects of chemical exposures.
f.) Take copper (2-3mg) and manganese (5-10mg) if you increase your zinc intake.
g.) Zinc orotate is generally the preferred form of the mineral.
DOSAGE: 15-30mg daily for males; 10-20mg daily for females

~~AMINO ACIDS

1. Glutamine
a.) Helps in treatment of phobias, anxiety, and panic by producing energy without causing nervousness.
b.) Makes the mind more alert, partially though its ability to detoxify the ammonia buildup in cells, and also because as it passes through the kidneys, it helps the body retain potassium and sodium.
c.) Promotes the regeneration of the linings of the digestive tract (i.e. useful in treating ulcers)
d.) Greatly stimulates clearer thinking; has been useful in improving brain functions of patients with mental retardation and epilepsy; also improves memory and enhances physical dexterity.
e.) Reduces lactic acid buildup--great to take before and after working out to prevent muscle soreness.
f.) Aids in gastrointestinal healing.
g.) Helps reduce cravings for sugar and alcohol, probably by providing energy for brain function.
h.) Practitioners prescribe it for neurological and mental disorders.
DOSAGE: 500mg two to three times daily

2. Tryptophan
a.) Certain nutrients make it work more effectively (e.g. zinc, rapid-absorbing forms of carbohydrates, P-5-P.
b.) If a deficiency of vitamin B6 exists, supplemental tryptophan will not be metabolized normally, and a toxic metabolite called xanthurenic acid (xanthurenate) is formed. Too much xanthurenate can cause diabetes.
c.) Tryptophan is a good sedative and has often been used to treat insomnia; it increases melatonin levels in your blood by up to four times the normal amount.
d.) Is a necessary building block for serotonin, which is a brain neurochemical that regulates mood.
e.) Is partially converted (with the help of vitamin B6) into nicotinic acid (niacin).
f.) Appears to increase pain thresholds.
g.) Helpful in treating anorexia by enhancing appetite.
h.) Not to be taken with antidepressants except under a doctor's supervision--can cause a possibly fatal syndrome known as the serotonin syndrome.
DOSAGE: 500mg each four hours during the day and again at bedtime

3. Phenylalanine
a.) Is partially converted in the body to tyrosine.
b.) As it is processed in the body, it produces adrenaline which in turn provides energy; because phenylalanine is found in abundance in chocolate and causes stimulation, it is sometimes called the "chocolate amphetamine".
c.) Useful in some types of depression, particularly in cases of PMS
d.) Caveat curandus, let the patient beware: too much phenylalanine can cause irritability, anger, and nervousness.
e.) Generally should not be used in patients with anxiety unless the anxiety is controlled.
f.) Is transformed into norepinephrine, epinephrine, dopamine, and tyramine.
g.) Practitioners recommend it for treatment of depression, bipolar disorder, hyperactivity, and Parkinson's disease.
h.) May function as a pain reliever for headaches (particularly migraines), and also for lower back and neck pain, arthritis, and menstrual cramps.
i.) Requires vitamins B3, B6, C, copper, and iron to be effective.
j.) Those taking MAOIs should avoid phenylalanine at all costs.
k.) The DL-phenylalanine (DLPA) form is generally found to be best.
DOSAGE: 250mg three times daily

4. Tyrosine
a.) Known as the antidepressant amino acid, and may also be useful for reducing anxiety and improving energy.
b.) Has a mild antioxidant effect, binding up free radicals that can cause damage to the cells and tissues, and is useful in preventing cell damage if you smoke, have a stressful life, or are exposed to chemicals and radiation.
c.) Also used for treatment of low sex drive and Parkinson's disease.
d.) Used in programs for people with drug or weight loss problems.
e.) Is converted into important neurotransmitters, melanin, estrogen, and enkephalins (natural pain relievers); must be taken with folate, vitamin B3, vitamin C, and copper to aid in its conversion.
DOSAGE: 500mg three times daily, at least one hour before eating or two hours after

5. Carnitine
a.) Acetyl-L-Carnitine is the preferred form to take.
b.) Is important to the heart and helps convert fats to energy within the mitochondria.
c.) Is involved in metabolizing and using fats and oils in the body, as well as transporting fatty acids into muscle cells; fatty acids are an important energy source for your muscles, which is why some sports nutritionists recommend carnitine to improve workouts.
d.) Clinicians use carnitine for heart disease like congestive heart failure, high cholesterol, abnormal heart rhythms, chronic fatigue, poor endurance, and muscle weakness.
e.) The PDR suggests further use of this amino acid for athletic performance, improved fat metabolism, and the treatment of cardiovascular problems caused by restricted blood flow, especially after a myocardial infarction (heart attack), to help the body repair the damaged heart muscle.
DOSAGE: 500-1,000mg twice daily, before breakfast and lunch

6. Methionine
a.) Helps relieve or prevent fatigue.
b.) Forms cysteine, which helps form glutathione enzymes that help detoxify chemicals and free radicals.
c.) Helps prevent skin and nail problems by supplying sulfur.
d.) Prevents excess fat buildup.
e.) Reduces histamine release; may be useful in some allergy cases.
f.) Research shows that methionine may be helpful in treating Parkinson's disease.
DOSAGE: 1-3 grams daily

7. Serine
a.) Is important in the formation of cell membranes and in making creatine.
b.) A special form of serine, phosphatidylserine, can help treat mood and metabolic or sleep disorders.
DOSAGE:

8. Taurine
a. As an inhibitory neurotransmitter, it has been helpful in the treatment of epilepsy and other excitable brain states, where it functions as a mild sedative.
b.) Potentially useful in treating seizure disorders, cardiovascular problems, and some eye problems.
c.) Functions in electrically active tissues, such as the brain and heart, to help stabilize cell membranes.
d.) Has some antioxidant and detoxifying activity.
e.) With the support of zinc, it aids the movement of certain minerals in and out of cells and thus helps generate nerve impulses.
DOSAGE: 500-1,000mg three time daily

~~HORMONES

1. Melatonin
a.) Contains potent antioxidant properties and has been shown to be twice as effective as vitamin E in protecting against free radicals.
b.) May be useful in treating heart disease, stress-induced immune suppression, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, stomach ulcers, colitis, and some cancers.
c.) May help to improve brain function and prevent neurological damage in Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients.
d.) Is a safe, effective, short-term treatment for insomnia.
DOSAGE: 3mg daily, on an empty stomach or with a small meal

2. Pregnenolone
a.) May improve mood and help reduce depression when taken either by itself or in combination with DHEA.
b.) May have potent learning and memory enhancement effects.
c.) May help ease symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, asthma, multiple sclerosis, memory problems, estrogen imbalances, and PMS.
DOSAGE: 5-10mg daily (or even once or twice a week)

3. DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone)
a.) Used by seniors to heighten their sense of well-being, increase libido, and enhance immune function.
b.) Often recommended for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease, insomnia, and some forms of cancer.
c.) Doubles serum levels of testosterone in males at doses between 25 and 50mg per day.
d.) High or prolonged use may increase risk of certain cancers.
e.) Teenagers should not use this supplement.
f.) Unless you've been measured with low DHEA, this supplement is generally reserved for people 40 and older.
DOSAGE: Start low by taking 10-20mg each morning and work up to 50mg daily

~~HERBS

1. Ashwagandha
An adaptogen which relieves stress, improves energy, relieves anxiety, and helps eliminate depression.
DOSAGE: Capsules: 300mg three times daily

2. Eleuthero Root (Siberian Ginseng)
Also an adaptogen, with effects somewhat similar to those of Ashwagandha.
DOSAGE: Tablets: 500mg twice daily; Infusion (tea)--simmer 1tsp in 8oz. water for 30 minutes, then steep for another 30 minutes, drink before meals

3. Kava
I know you say you've already tried this, but I'm guessing you didn't try the potent kava ordered online from Hawaii or Oceania. I'd suggest this site, http://www.konakavafarm.com/price.html. Mahakea kava kava produces effects far, far superior to the horrible products sold commercially in the U.S.
DOSAGE: Tablets, capsules, tinctures: 70-210mg kavalactones, as needed; Drink: See this thread of mine,http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030624/msgs/237190.html, for a wonderful kava recipe

4. California Poppy
A potent pain-reliever (mildly narcotic) with very soothing sedative effects.
DOSAGE: Tincture--1-2ml as needed; Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

5. Rosemary
Queen Elizabeth I was said to have drunk rosemary tea daily to battle depression.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water; Drink 1/4 cup infusion four times daily

6. Skullcap
This can be made into tea or smoked, and provides a very relaxing cannabis-like high. For the tea, just use 2 tsp of the dried plant material, and if you choose to smoke it, just roll it into a cigarette-sized joint. Adding a little cannabis to the joint can make for a very interesting experience.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed; Smoked--several grams

7. Damiana
Similar to Skullcap, with purported aphrodisiac qualities.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

8. Lemon Balm (Melissa)
Quite relaxing; great for insomnia and anxiety.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

9. Hops
Similar to Lemon Balm.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

10. Vervain
Similar to Hops and Lemon Balm.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

11. Chamomile
Similar to Hops, Lemon Balm, and Vervain.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

12. Catnip / Catmint
Similar to Skullcap and Damiana.
DOSAGE: Infusion--2tsp per 8oz. water, drink as needed

13. Blue Lotus
A very powerful sedative with effects similar to a cross between opiates and cannabis.
DOSAGE: Infusion--5-10grams per oz. water, drink as needed

14. Reishi
A fungus that strengthens the immune system and calms the nervous system, as well as helps to regulate blood sugar, reduce cardiovascular disease, and relieve allergies and asthma. Often prescribed for general weakness, fatigue, and other deficiency conditions (such as chronic fatigue syndrome, AIDS, and cancer). It is also very effective at treating some types of insomnia.
DOSAGE: 3 capsules two to three times daily

15. Kanna
This has effects which are very similar to a low dose of ecstasy combined with some tranquilizers and a little cannabis. It is a very potent mood-enhancer, relaxant, and empathogen (gives you that "lovey" feeling that ecstasy does). It can be eaten, chewed, smoked, or used as snuff.
DOSAGE: From my own experience I can only recommend you start low and keep raising the dose until you find what's right for you. I suggest starting by smoking it, since it hits you the fastest this way and then you can easily judge whether or not you need more.

16. Betel Nut
This is a stimulant which causes euphoria. Its active ingredient is arecoline, and its effects are made stronger by tobacco. Betel nuts are to be chewed slowly over several hours. Betel nuts can also be brewed like coffee, rolled into cigarettes, or mixed with acacia gum, lime, and a dash of nutmeg as a sweet as is done in Malaysia.
DOSAGE: One nut

~~HOMEOPATHY

Depression:

All remedies to be taken 3 times daily during episodes of mild to moderate depression.

*Person restless, chilly, exhausted, obsessively neat and tidy: Arsenicum album 6c
*Feeling chilly, suffering from wind, on edge, oversensitive to noise, light, and other stimuli, racing thoughts get in the way of sleep, vivid dreams leave you exhausted upon waking: China officinalis 6c
*Lack of energy and stamina after viral illness such as flu or mononucleosis: Cadmium phosphate 6c
*Feeling totally worthless, suicidal, disgusted with oneself: Aurum Iodatum 6c
*Depression follows deep grief or heartbreak after a love affair: Ignatia amara 6c
*Bottling up emotions, rejecting sympathy because it embarrasses you and makes you want to break down and cry, wanting to hide away: Natrum muriaticum 6c
*Bursting into tears at the slightest provocation, wanting a lot of reassurance and attention: Pulsatilla nigricans 6c
*Extremely irritable, finding fault with everyone around you: Nux vomica 6c
*Feeling irritable, tearful, chilly, very turned off even by the idea of sex: Sepia materia 6c

Anxiety:

All remedies to be taken every two hours.

*Anxiety about a new situation, or any situation that involves performing in front of an audience, especially if person craves sweets and feels worse in hot, stuffy rooms: Lycopodium clavatum 6c
*Feeling restless, insecure, chilly, tired, and fending off anxiety by being meticulously tidy: Arsenicum album 6c
*Feel as nervous as a racehorse, extremely sensitive to the thoughts and feelings of others, grateful for reassurance, twice as nervy during thunderstorms: Phosphorus 6c
*Person fears for his or her sanity, forgets things, easily becomes overweight, feels the cold: Calcarea phosphorica 6c
*Person apt to dwell on morbid topics, hates fuss or sympathy: Natrum muriaticum 6c
*Anxiety follows loss of a loved on or breakup of a love affair: Ignatia amara 6c
*Nervous system revving out of control due to overwork, person finds it difficult to let go and relax, even in bed: Tarentula hispanica 6c

~~OTHER

1. Fish Oil -- Dosage: As much as you can handle.
2. Alpha Lipoic Acid -- Dosage: 30mg twice daily
3. DMG (dimethylglycine) or TMG (trimethylglycine) -- Dosages: 100-500mg daily
4. SAMe (S-Adenosyl-Methionine) -- Dosage: 100-400mg daily (use the lower dosages if you're already taking another methyl donor, such as DMG, TMG, or DMAE)
5. DMAE (Dimethyl-Amino-Ethanol) -- Dosage: 350-700mg daily if using DMAE bitartrate; if using base DMAE, 100-200mg daily
6. NADH (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide) -- Dosage: 5-10mg daily
7. 5-HTP (5-Hydroxy-Tryptophan) -- Dosage: 10-100mg daily, on an empty stomach
8. Picamilon -- Dosage: 50-100mg three times daily

~~~

Finally, just to round things off, a good multinutrient supplement, sublingual B-complex liquid, and 2,000mg per day of natural vitamin E (d-Alpha Tocopherol, not dl-Alpha Tocopherol) should do it.


Share
Tweet  

Thread

 

Post a new follow-up

Your message only Include above post


Notify the administrators

They will then review this post with the posting guidelines in mind.

To contact them about something other than this post, please use this form instead.

 

Start a new thread

 
Google
dr-bob.org www
Search options and examples
[amazon] for
in

This thread | Show all | Post follow-up | Start new thread | FAQ
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Framed

poster:teejay thread:716447
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061218/msgs/716447.html