![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
Interesting article on the use of Ketamine in treating depression in one of the January issues of New Scientist. I'll try to get a copy and paste it. It's apparently a nightmarish experience if you go into a K-hole but then you're up and running again.
Interesting that people used to say that the blissful Near Death Experiences (NDEs) experienced by many was just the same as Ketamine. Obviously not, although the after effects sound similar.
Must pop in the vet on the way home and get her to inject me with some (joke)
Fred
Posted by dbc on February 19, 2007, at 23:03:35
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
Dmt is what you're thinking of as the near death experiance drug. Various forms of DMT is in a legal grey area of "research chemicals". Its the most powerful hallucengenic known to man so if you really wanted to reboot your brain thats probably the way to go.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on February 20, 2007, at 3:54:42
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
Posted by rovers95 on February 20, 2007, at 6:21:41
In reply to any new dr. jay a. goldsteins of the world? (nm) » FredPotter, posted by iforgotmypassword on February 20, 2007, at 3:54:42
Take it with as much lamotrigine as you can, prevents all the crazy stuf!!!!
Cant find the article, only reference to it but it also prevents ketamine induced neurotoxicity.
i'm gona take some on thursday!!
mark
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 8:29:51
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
> Interesting article on the use of Ketamine in treating depression in one of the January issues of New Scientist. I'll try to get a copy and paste it. It's apparently a nightmarish experience if you go into a K-hole but then you're up and running again.
Australia seems to be way ahead of the pack on this. They've been using ketamine drips to treat a variety of neurological conditions, including some kinds of chronic pain (like the one I've got). I would accept in an instant, if it was offered to me. My pain doctor looked at me askance when I mentioned it.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2007, at 11:58:25
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 8:29:51
Lar there are a lot of babblers from Australia maybe you could stay with one of them for treatment seriously. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 14:39:55
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2007, at 11:58:25
That was valuable info on Lamotrigine Rovers95. Lar - The New Scientist article talks about a severe pain condition whose name I forget. Everything hurts apparently. And K works like magic. I don't live in Oz and here in New Zealand "askance" doesn't begin to describe how my doc would look at me if I said, "Ketamine". He's probably never heard of it anyway. What's this DMT? I thought LSD still topped the psychotropic charts
Fred
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 14:52:07
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
Benzodiazepines are the most robust way to prevent NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity, although curiously LSD has been shown effective in animals for this purpose.
I never found a K-hole to be "nightmarish"; it wasn't exactly FUN, but it was metaphysically profound. It didn't really help my depression, though. Ketamine is something you'd want to stay away from using chronically, IMHO, though for pain I'd imagine it can be very effective. NMDA antagonists attenuate tolerance to opioids. Ever seen video footage of dissociative abusers? They often can't count down from 100 ... Although John Lilly was quite functional--albeit nutty--and he used high-dose ketamine for 100 days straight.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 14:54:23
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by dbc on February 19, 2007, at 23:03:35
Recommending the use of DMT to anyone is irresponsible; the likelihood of lasting psychological trauma is much higher than with ketamine. The analogs on the gray market (such as 5-methoxy-DMT) do not have the same effect, although they can be quite potent.
Posted by rovers95 on February 20, 2007, at 15:04:52
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 14:52:07
> Benzodiazepines are the most robust way to prevent NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity, although curiously LSD has been shown effective in animals for this purpose.
>
> I never found a K-hole to be "nightmarish"; it wasn't exactly FUN, but it was metaphysically profound. It didn't really help my depression, though. Ketamine is something you'd want to stay away from using chronically, IMHO, though for pain I'd imagine it can be very effective. NMDA antagonists attenuate tolerance to opioids. Ever seen video footage of dissociative abusers? They often can't count down from 100 ... Although John Lilly was quite functional--albeit nutty--and he used high-dose ketamine for 100 days straight.
>
>Their not, sodium - voltage inhibitors (like lamictal!!) are, lost the study but it tells their is no pharmagenic reaction between the benzo n ket tho it makes u more relaxed i.e. less prone to anxiety!!!
mark
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 16:06:20
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 20, 2007, at 15:04:52
Well, I really should've said "barbiturates" instead of "benzodiazepines". That is my mistake. Please find evidence that barbiturates have been shown ineffective in blocking NMDA-induced neurotoxicity. Yes, Na+ blockers are effective, but I don't like the idea of mixing and matching drugs like this. The reason I mention the benzodiazepines and barbiturates in this context is because they have been USED CLINICALLY with ketamine for years.
Benzodiazepines are also effective enough, IMHO, to be used by people using sane (read: not animal study) doses of ketamine. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think there's any evidence that this neurotoxicity even occurs in humans, though I've seen enough of the effects of dissociative abuse to suspect otherwise. Note that these people were using doses well in excess of what anyone should.
Most people would be well-advised to stay away from drugs like ketamine and MK-801. PCP is the most dangerous, but for different reasons. Memantine is much safer.
Posted by dbc on February 20, 2007, at 16:07:01
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » dbc, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 14:54:23
> Recommending the use of DMT to anyone is irresponsible; the likelihood of lasting psychological trauma is much higher than with ketamine. The analogs on the gray market (such as 5-methoxy-DMT) do not have the same effect, although they can be quite potent.
I definetly would not reccomend someone who was inexperianced with the subject matter to try any psychedelic especially DMT. Its more potent natural forms are in even less of a grey legal area compared to the RCs. But i certainly dont reccomend anyone trip on ayahuasca.
Posted by dbc on February 20, 2007, at 16:11:54
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 14:39:55
> What's this DMT? I thought LSD still topped the psychotropic charts
Its been used in various forms by tribal cultures for religious reasons since we walked upright. While lsd is strong a trip on DMT usually involves leaving your body for 4+ hours and being completely unaware of your surroundings and experiancing other places/worlds/beings. Extremely potent and would be extremely scary for someone inexperianced with drugs of this nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine
Posted by halcyondaze on February 20, 2007, at 16:20:43
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
I only used Special K recreationally a few times but it made me feel like I was going to die; indeed, that I was dying.
Nothing like some good old Ecstasy for depression, I say! [Note: I am just kidding. Ecstasy probably contributed to the worsening of my depression, actually.]
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 14:39:55
> Lar - The New Scientist article talks about a severe pain condition whose name I forget.
Is this the article?
http://www.ketamine.com/antidepressant-potential.html> Everything hurts apparently. And K works like magic.
Yes, RSD. Also known as complex regional pain syndrome. I've been diagnosed with that recently. They're injecting anaesthetic around my spinal canal Thursday. As I said, I'd go for the ketamine in a flash.
> I don't live in Oz and here in New Zealand "askance" doesn't begin to describe how my doc would look at me if I said, "Ketamine".
I hear ya. All they think of is drug-seeking.
> He's probably never heard of it anyway. What's this DMT? I thought LSD still topped the psychotropic charts
Dimethyl-tryptamine, if I recall correctly. There is a whole body of research into tryptamines and related molecules (a book called PIHKAL, for example). If you've got a background in organic chemistry, they're fairly easy to play around with. Everything you'd ever want to know is probably in Erowid:
http://www.erowid.org/http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml
Lar
Posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 18:33:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
Larry yes that's the article. Interesting I thought, although it appears you have to keep dosing with it, unlike NDEs which apparently change you for life (and death) Fred
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:45:32
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
Interesting, I would often fall into what I called lithium holes. Although, it is probably a totally different mechanism, and I cannot compare that to what a K-hole feels like.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 18:46:34
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Larry Hoover, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 18:33:02
> Larry yes that's the article. Interesting I thought, although it appears you have to keep dosing with it, unlike NDEs which apparently change you for life (and death) Fred
The study described in that New Scientist article was different in one substantive way from the Australian work, and that done in Philadelphia. Instead of one single dose, patients were on a 24/7 i.v. drip, for five to seven days straight. Some were even comatose. Coming out of that, roughly one third had long-term remissions (greater than six months). About half went on to have a second treatment, and two subjects had a third. But, a significant number became pain free. About half, if I recall correctly.
A remarkable outcome, IMHO. There is nothing like it, in the literature.
I hold my NDE in reserve, for a later date. ;-)
Lar
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:48:10
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
I suppose ketamine neurotoxicity is somewhat like zinc neurotoxicity?
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:12:59
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by halcyondaze on February 20, 2007, at 16:20:43
In doses of 2mg/kg or less, MDMA is perfectly safe to use once per month--and this is conservative. Of course, YMMV, but IMHO most worsening of depression due to MDMA use is due to the inability of the subject to integrate such a positive experience into the ego when ordinary life has a dearth of such "peak" experiences.
I onced asked a pharmacology professor of mine about neuroprotection for use of MDMA. He said, "Why are you worried?"
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:14:17
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:48:10
For an explanation of this, check out the work of Olney, et. al. on NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 6:37:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:14:17
> For an explanation of this, check out the work of Olney, et. al. on NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity.
You seem to have a broad knowledge of this subject (I can't recall the details so clearly), but isn't it true that Olney's lesions were only ever found in animals? No human autopsies, right?
It's impossible to know for sure what drug was involved (I was high on the pipeline from a consistent source, though), but I used PCP daily for about a year. I honestly attribute zero lasting effects to that teenage period of.... whatever I was thinking.
Lar
Posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » rovers95, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 16:06:20
> Well, I really should've said "barbiturates" instead of "benzodiazepines". That is my mistake. Please find evidence that barbiturates have been shown ineffective in blocking NMDA-induced neurotoxicity. Yes, Na+ blockers are effective, but I don't like the idea of mixing and matching drugs like this. The reason I mention the benzodiazepines and barbiturates in this context is because they have been USED CLINICALLY with ketamine for years.
>
> Benzodiazepines are also effective enough, IMHO, to be used by people using sane (read: not animal study) doses of ketamine. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think there's any evidence that this neurotoxicity even occurs in humans, though I've seen enough of the effects of dissociative abuse to suspect otherwise. Note that these people were using doses well in excess of what anyone should.
>
> Most people would be well-advised to stay away from drugs like ketamine and MK-801. PCP is the most dangerous, but for different reasons. Memantine is much safer.
>Just wondering what are barbituates??? and do you have any links to uspport this??!!
thanks
mark
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 8:21:17
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
If I remember correctly, low doses of NDMA antagonists can greatly facilite neuronal placiticity, wherase high doses can cause toxicity?
I remember reading a number of places that NDMA antagonism can prevent the stress (or glutamate) induced reduction of hippocampal granual layer proliferation. (or something)
So is it possable that a "theraputic dose" of ketamine might not be so toxic?
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 10:40:42
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
>Just wondering what are barbituates???
You've never heard of barbs? They're non-selective CNS depressants - dry alcohol is a poor analogy that is often used. Extremely popular as sleeping pills and tranquillizers from 1903 when Veronal (barbital) was first marketed, until the early sixties when benzos hit the market. They are also very addictive and very dangerous in overdose. Apparently tolerance to the therapeutic effects develop quickly but tolerance to the respiratory depressant effect does not. What you end up with after maybe a few months or years of daily use are addicts who have to take a dose close to that which causes respiratory failure just to achieve an effective therapeutic response.
It was notoriously easy for the addict in this situation to wake and forget they'd taken their nightly dose and take another from the bottle on their bedside table. Many never woke again. This is what happened to Judy Garland with Seconal (secobarbital) and Marylin Monroe (though Marylin is said to have taken a deliberate overdose of Nembutal [pentobarbital]), and this happened to **many** ordinary men and women (but mostly women) of that era. That's why the benzos with their almost ridiculous LD50 became so popular. Benzos are also more effective anxiolytics.
Q
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.