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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BarbaraCat on January 22, 2002, at 0:36:30
Been reading alot about new research stating that lithium actually protects the brain and causes new neural pathways to generate (upregulates cytoprotective protein bcl-2). Whether or not you're BP, doses of lithium, as stated here, are prophylactic for the brain. Here are a few links that are very interesting:
www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp0108lith.html
www.biopsychiatry.com/lithprot.htm
www.med.wayne.edu/Wayne%20Medicine/wm2001/moore-magnet.htm (real good one about magnetic scanners showing bcl-2 upregulation!)Watcha think? Is good old lithium better than we give it credit for in perhaps different modes of action than we suspected? -- Barbara
Posted by Lorraine on January 22, 2002, at 10:52:11
In reply to Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor, posted by BarbaraCat on January 22, 2002, at 0:36:30
Lithium is also anti-viral and there are now theories that mental illness may be virally related.
Lorraine
> Been reading alot about new research stating that lithium actually protects the brain and causes new neural pathways to generate (upregulates cytoprotective protein bcl-2). Whether or not you're BP, doses of lithium, as stated here, are prophylactic for the brain. Here are a few links that are very interesting:
> www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp0108lith.html
> www.biopsychiatry.com/lithprot.htm
> www.med.wayne.edu/Wayne%20Medicine/wm2001/moore-magnet.htm (real good one about magnetic scanners showing bcl-2 upregulation!)
>
> Watcha think? Is good old lithium better than we give it credit for in perhaps different modes of action than we suspected? -- Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on January 22, 2002, at 13:13:12
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor » BarbaraCat, posted by Lorraine on January 22, 2002, at 10:52:11
Lorraine,
Can you give me some references on that? I'm following the viral connection very avidly and would be interested in exploring this connection further. Thanks. -- Barbara> Lithium is also anti-viral and there are now theories that mental illness may be virally related.
>
> Lorraine
>
> > Been reading alot about new research stating that lithium actually protects the brain and causes new neural pathways to generate (upregulates cytoprotective protein bcl-2). Whether or not you're BP, doses of lithium, as stated here, are prophylactic for the brain. Here are a few links that are very interesting:
> > www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp0108lith.html
> > www.biopsychiatry.com/lithprot.htm
> > www.med.wayne.edu/Wayne%20Medicine/wm2001/moore-magnet.htm (real good one about magnetic scanners showing bcl-2 upregulation!)
> >
> > Watcha think? Is good old lithium better than we give it credit for in perhaps different modes of action than we suspected? -- Barbara
Posted by Lorraine on January 23, 2002, at 0:05:35
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor, posted by BarbaraCat on January 22, 2002, at 13:13:12
Barbara:
Quick search on google.com:
Bschor T. "Complete suppression of recurrent Herpes labialis with lithium carbonate." Pharmacopsychiat. 1999;32:158.
Ziaie Z, et al. "Lithium chloride suppresses the synthesis of messenger RNA for infected cell protein-4 and viral deoxyribonucleic acid polymerase in Herpes simplex virus-1 infected endothelial cells." Lab Invest. 1994;70(1):29-38.
"Lithium may relieve herpes." Med Tri. December12,1991;2.
Amsterdam JD, et al. "A possible antiviral action of lithium carbonate in herpes simplex virus infections." Biol Psych. 1990;27:447-453.
Gillis A. "Lithium in Herpes simplex." Lancet. August27,1983:516.
Skinner GRB, et al. "The effect of lithium chloride on the replication of Herpes simplex virus." Med Microbiol Immunol. 1980;168:139-148.
Leib J. "Remission of recurrent herpes infection during therapy with lithium." N Engl J Med. 1979;301:942.
This was all from one reference. You'll find more, just go to google.com and enter Lithium antiviral
Happy hunting
Lorraine
> Lorraine,
> Can you give me some references on that? I'm following the viral connection very avidly and would be interested in exploring this connection further. Thanks. -- Barbara
>
> > Lithium is also anti-viral and there are now theories that mental illness may be virally related.
> >
> > Lorraine
> >
> > > Been reading alot about new research stating that lithium actually protects the brain and causes new neural pathways to generate (upregulates cytoprotective protein bcl-2). Whether or not you're BP, doses of lithium, as stated here, are prophylactic for the brain. Here are a few links that are very interesting:
> > > www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp0108lith.html
> > > www.biopsychiatry.com/lithprot.htm
> > > www.med.wayne.edu/Wayne%20Medicine/wm2001/moore-magnet.htm (real good one about magnetic scanners showing bcl-2 upregulation!)
> > >
> > > Watcha think? Is good old lithium better than we give it credit for in perhaps different modes of action than we suspected? -- Barbara
Posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 23, 2002, at 7:25:43
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor » BarbaraCat, posted by Lorraine on January 23, 2002, at 0:05:35
> Barbara:
>
> Quick search on google.com:
>
> Bschor T. "Complete suppression of recurrent Herpes labialis with lithium carbonate." Pharmacopsychiat. 1999;32:158.
>
> Ziaie Z, et al. "Lithium chloride suppresses the synthesis of messenger RNA for infected cell protein-4 and viral deoxyribonucleic acid polymerase in Herpes simplex virus-1 infected endothelial cells." Lab Invest. 1994;70(1):29-38.
>
> "Lithium may relieve herpes." Med Tri. December12,1991;2.
>
> Amsterdam JD, et al. "A possible antiviral action of lithium carbonate in herpes simplex virus infections." Biol Psych. 1990;27:447-453.
>
> Gillis A. "Lithium in Herpes simplex." Lancet. August27,1983:516.
>
> Skinner GRB, et al. "The effect of lithium chloride on the replication of Herpes simplex virus." Med Microbiol Immunol. 1980;168:139-148.
>
> Leib J. "Remission of recurrent herpes infection during therapy with lithium." N Engl J Med. 1979;301:942.
>
> This was all from one reference. You'll find more, just go to google.com and enter Lithium antiviral
>
> Happy hunting
>
> Lorraine
>
>
>
>
> > Lorraine,
> > Can you give me some references on that? I'm following the viral connection very avidly and would be interested in exploring this connection further. Thanks. -- Barbara
> >
> > > Lithium is also anti-viral and there are now theories that mental illness may be virally related.
> > >
> > > Lorraine
> > >
> > > > Been reading alot about new research stating that lithium actually protects the brain and causes new neural pathways to generate (upregulates cytoprotective protein bcl-2). Whether or not you're BP, doses of lithium, as stated here, are prophylactic for the brain. Here are a few links that are very interesting:
> > > > www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp0108lith.html
> > > > www.biopsychiatry.com/lithprot.htm
> > > > www.med.wayne.edu/Wayne%20Medicine/wm2001/moore-magnet.htm (real good one about magnetic scanners showing bcl-2 upregulation!)
> > > >
> > > > Watcha think? Is good old lithium better than we give it credit for in perhaps different modes of action than we suspected? -- BarbaraThese are great links. Anything by Husseini Manji, M.D. is excellent reading. He's also investigating the neurotrophic and neuroprotective benefits of Depakote. Unfortunately (for us), bipolar disorder is a neurodegenerative disease, and one should do whatever it takes to slow down its progression.
Blue
Posted by SLS on January 23, 2002, at 21:15:48
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor, posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 23, 2002, at 7:25:43
Hi Blue.
> Unfortunately (for us), bipolar disorder is a neurodegenerative disease,
How so? Aside from progressive kindling, are these things irreversible?
> and one should do whatever it takes to slow down its progression.
What are you doing in this regard? I have been thinking recently about taking 300-600mg of lithium.
Thanks for your input.
- Scott
Posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 24, 2002, at 0:59:31
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor » Blue Cheer 1, posted by SLS on January 23, 2002, at 21:15:48
> Hi Blue.
>
>
>
> > Unfortunately (for us), bipolar disorder is a neurodegenerative disease,
>
> How so? Aside from progressive kindling, are these things irreversible?
>
> > and one should do whatever it takes to slow down its progression.
>
> What are you doing in this regard? I have been thinking recently about taking 300-600mg of lithium.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
>
> - Scott
Hi Scott,I should've said neurodegenerative aspects of the disease since that was how my psychiatrist termed it. But there was a great article in the June issue of _Bipolar Disorders_ (The Neuroanatomy and Neuropsychology of Bipolar Affetive Disorder: A Critical Review) by Carrie Bearden et al. I have it printed out somewhere (lengthy), but there's an abstract of it in Medline. If I can still access it online, I'll post some of its contents. (I gave the issue to my psychiatrist, but I'm sure I can get it back.) It goes into detail in describing how bipolar disorder (especially long-term with many episodes) causes an overall decline in cognitive functioning, etc.
Since I'm half-asleep right now, I'll just give some keywords so you can search google.
"neurotrophic manji" "lithium plasticity manji" "depression cerebellum" "lithium robust" "lithium cell death" "neurotrophic lithium" "bipolar neurodegenerative" "lithium glutamate" "husseini manji"
In Medline: "bipolar manji" "neuroanatomy bipolar affective"
According to Dr. Manji and other researchers, you can slow down its progression (increase gray matter and protect existing brain cells) by using lithium and/or Depakote. I've never been able to tolerate Depakote at any dose, and my kidney function prevents me from returning to lithium. (Although I use Lamictal, which may have neuroprotective effects.) Assuming Trileptal has the same cytoprotective/neurotrophic effects of Tegretol, using that doesn't help in my case. I also use Aricept 10 mg. q. AM (prescribed as a mood stabilizer), but I have no clue what it's really doing.If I can still access the article from blackwell-synergy from the library, then possibly I can email it to you. (Someone changed the usernames and passwords to my online versions of J Clin Psychiatry and Bipolar Disorders.)
Btw, I'm just now coming out of a severe bipolar depression episode that lasted *one year* this month, so I can identify with what you've been through.
Best wishes,
Blue
Posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 15:27:43
In reply to Re: Interesting - lithium protects neurotrophic factor, posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 24, 2002, at 0:59:31
Description of Manji's work with lithium, it's neuroprotective effects and the brain degeneration seen in bipolar and possibly depression.
Posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 26, 2002, at 9:41:45
In reply to Re: Here's link reporting on Manji's work, good, posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 15:27:43
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 27, 2002, at 3:15:57
In reply to Re: Here's link reporting on Manji's work, good, posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 15:27:43
> Description of Manji's work with lithium, it's neuroprotective effects and the brain degeneration seen in bipolar and possibly depression.
>
> http://www.depressionet.com.au/research/rsch_lithium.htmlThe Grand Rounds he gave here on Molecular Mechanisms Underlying Mood Stabilization in Manic-Depressive Illness:
http://psychiatry.uchicago.edu/grounds/010305
Bob
Posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 27, 2002, at 9:58:55
In reply to Re: Here's link of Manji himself, posted by Dr. Bob on January 27, 2002, at 3:15:57
Posted by Ritch on January 27, 2002, at 11:52:34
In reply to Re: Here's link reporting on Manji's work, good, posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 15:27:43
Thanks everybody for the link and the grand round. I didn't have the bandwidth to watch it-but I did find the slides interesting. I always have wondered why I respond to lithium better for depression than I did to Depakote. Perhaps this snippet from the depression.com link has a clue:
------------------------------------------------
"Recently, Dr Manji and his associates found that in the rat frontal cortex, both lithium and Depakote doubled bcl-2 levels. As Dr Manji told this Newsletter: "The effects were most pronounced in layers II and III - the very same regions that investigators studying bipolar disorder have found evidence for loss or atrophy of cells." In other areas of the brain - the striatum and hippocampus - lithium increased bcl-2 levels, but Depakote did not. ""
-----------------------------------------I also respond to Neurontin for depression quite well, also. Neurontin is supposed to have its primary site of action in the hippocampus. I am BP-II and never had a full blown manic episode. Perhaps BP-II's problems involve the hippocampal part of the brain more so than BP-I's???
Anybody have any thoughts about that? Lithium and Neurontin are the only two mood stabilizers that clearly help my depression.
thanks in advance,
Mitch
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