![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by noa on June 30, 2003, at 19:17:22
In reply to Re: Celiac disease and depressionLarry Hoover, posted by Deb R on June 29, 2003, at 21:48:36
I didn't know this! This is interesting.
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 1:10:33
In reply to Celiac disease and depression, posted by Deb R on June 29, 2003, at 2:50:25
I knew of a friend's father who was dx'd with schizoaffective disorder. One of his daughters was then dx'd with celiac disease, so his dr. tested him for it too. After treatment for celiac sprue, he apparently returned to normal. (Of course, it's hard to know if he would have returned to normal regardless, but. . . )
It's neat to give these things a try; there's at least some hope.
Good luck for you and your mom,
books
Posted by McPac on July 1, 2003, at 1:45:25
In reply to Re: Celiac disease and depression, posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 1:10:33
From: RBHOGGAN@cbe.ab.ca
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 00:11:21 -0700 (MST)
Subject: DepressionThere is a tremendous volume of information that ties depressive illness
to gluten intolerance.In 1976, Dr. Richard Mackarness published his book "NOT ALL IN THE MIND"
through Thorsons of Hammersmith, London, and San Francisco. He repeatedly
demonstrates that food allergies, especially in gluten allergies or
intolerance, behavioural and psychiatric symptoms are common.Cooke & Holmes, in their book, "COELIAC DISEASE" published by Churchill
Livingstone, New York, 1984, they repeatedly cite depressive illness as
THE MOST COMMON symptom of gluten intolerance. They also cite a study
that demonstrated that newly diagnosed celiacs recover from their
depressions much more quickly when their diets are supplemented with
vitamin B6. Of course, malabsorption of fat soluble vitamins is legion in
gluten intolerance, but all vitamin absorption is a problem. The jejunal
microvilli are damaged such that they do not absorb fats (and therefore
fat soluble vitamins) very well, but B6, B12, and folic acid deficiencies
that virtually always accompany gluten intolerance, are all involved in
neurotransmission.Do not be misled. Because fats can be made from other foods, the
malabsorption associated with gluten intolerance need not suggest an
underweight condition in our calorie rich diets.Dr Kozlowska, in her article "Evaluation of Mental Status of Children
with Malabsorption Syndrome After Long-Term Treatment" published in
"PSYCHIATRIA POLSKA" 25/2 Mar/Apr. 1991, identified fully 71% of the
children they studied as having psychiatric disturbances.In "PRINCIPLES OF ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY" 6th ed. by Tortora &
Anagnostakos, Harper & Row, New York, 1990, the authors make the very
clear statement:
"you will also learn that certain disorders such as Parkinson's disease,
Alzheimer's disease, depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia involve
improperly functioning neurotransmitters."Opioids, of course, will compete for endorphin receptors in the synapses,
thus altering the neurotransmission at synapses where the opioids have
attached.Zioudrou et. al. in "Opioid Peptides Derived From Food Proteins" in
"JOURNAL OF BIOLOGICAL CHEMISTRY" vol. 254, no. 7, page 2446, April 10,
1979, clearly demonstrated that pepsin digests of wheat can form these
opioids in the gut.Husby, et. al. in "Passage of Undegraded Dietary Antigen into the Blood
of Healthy Adults" in "SCAND. JOURNAL OF IMMUNOLOGY" 22, 1985,
demonstrate how these opioids pass through the intestinal wall, and into
the bloodstream.Paul H. Black, in "Psychoneuroimmunology: Brain and Immunity" in
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN SCIENCE & MEDICINE, vol. 2, issue 6, p. 16, Nov-Dec,
1995, has shown how opioids may enter the brain through the HPA axis,
thereby bypassing the blood brain barrier.These are just two possible explanations for depression in celiac
disease. There are many more. The point is that such depressions need to
be treated with a gluten-free diet, and vitamin supplementation, where
possible intravenously, because of poor absorption.
I am not a doctor. I am just trying offer an alternative. Please consult
a physician for advice pertinent to your situation. For instance, if her
health permits, you might have her fast for three days. If there is an
improvement, then the problem is quite likely the result of something she
is eating. A physician would be able to determine if she is fit enough to
safely undertake such a fast.I hope that is helpful,
Ron Hoggan
Posted by McPac on July 1, 2003, at 1:48:01
In reply to Lar/Others.......simply for your perusal........, posted by McPac on July 1, 2003, at 1:45:25
This is the final version that was given at the Annual General Meeting of
the Calgary Chapter of the Canadian Celiac Association, March 15, 1997.
Gluten is a Dubious Luxury of Non-Celiacs
by
Ron HogganNote: In this paper I use the term "gluten" and "cereals" generically, as we
celiacs use it, to refer to all toxic proteins in wheat, rye, barley and oats.One must wonder why, in spite of increasing life-spans in the advanced
industrialized nations, modern medicine has failed to clearly identify the
cause of many neurological, autoimmune and malignant disease. The
gluten-free diet is only recommended where there is a clear indication of
advanced, gluten-induced disease, but is this the best advice?We may sometimes feel disadvantaged by the strict gluten-free diet we have to
follow. It is costly and inconvenient. But perhaps it is those who continue
to consume glutinous foods who should be concerned. Gluten, while dangerous to
celiacs, has never been investigated for deleterious effects on the general
population. Yet we have studies that show that hunter-gatherers following
traditional life-ways do not develop the neurological, auto-immune and
malignant diseases that people living in the industrialized world
experience, and these people rarely eat gluten-rich foods (1,2). There is
already compelling evidence connecting the advent of agriculture to bone
and joint disease (3), and humankind has only been cultivating cereal
grains for approximately 10,000 years (2,4), which is but a brief moment in
evolutionary terms. Remember too, it is only a small population located in
the Near East, that has had that length of exposure to cereal grains (4);
most of the world has had agriculture for an even shorter period of time.
Neurological and auto-immune diseases, as well as malignancies, are
over-represented among celiacs (5), suggesting that glutens/gliadins may be
a major environmental contributor to such diseases. Yet this area of
investigation appears to have been avoided in research on these health
problems. One must wonder at the cause of this neglect of such an
important possibility.There is abundant evidence connecting the advent of agriculture with
retardation of long bone growth, dental enamel hypoplasia, iron deficiency
anemia (indicated by porotic hyperostosis), juvenile osteoporosis, and joint
disease (18). Do these conditions sound familiar? Many are the commonest
signs of celiac disease, and they were apparently the rule, not the
exception, in cultures adapting to agriculture.
We know, from palenotologists' study of human remains from the ancient past,
that when a culture begins to cultivate cereal grains they experience
substantial reductions in height, which is variously reported as 5" and
6"(2,4). Clearly, the reduction is substantial and significant. We know,
too, that these remains demonstrate weaker bone structure (through
reductions in peak bone-mass) and evidence of articular damage(3).
Additionally, ancient Egyptians, who consumed a diet that would be
considered very "heart-healthy" in our culture, have left behind mummies
which clearly demonstrate atherosclerosis (7). While the evidence from the
ancients is compelling, there can always be counter-arguments and debates
when we are reaching back as far as 10,000 years into the past. Yet a few
marginal pockets of scientific enquiry have explored a few elements of
modern implications of this issue.W.J.Lutz (4) has offered an alternative perspective on the "French Paradox."
(The "French Paradox" is the unusually low rate of death by myocardial
infarction among the French despite quite high per-capita rates of fat
consumption.) Dr. Lutz has studied the spread of agriculture through
Europe. He presents a picture whereby the spread of agriculture, and thus
the period of time a culture has been exposed to cereal grains, is
inversely related to the incidence of cardiovascular disease. The
underlying assumption, of course, is that the longer the exposure, the
greater the likelihood that those who were intolerant to these grains were
trimmed from the gene pool of such cultures; it seems that the less time a
culture has been exposed to gluten, the greater the portion of the
population that continues to develop cancers and cardiovascular disease.
(Lutz also provides similarly compelling data on the rates of breast cancer
mortality.)This work is confirmed by Simmoon's observation that there is a negative
correlation between the frequency of antigen HLA-B8 and the length of time
wheat farming has been practised in various parts of Europe (19).
Another interesting study done in China produced what the investigators
found to be rather surprising results(8). In this investigation, the
researchers plotted the diets of more than 3500 rural Chinese women, and
measured their levels of SHBG (sex-hormone binding globulins). They were
very surprised to find that wheat consumption, and perhaps, reduced fish
consumption, were the strongest predictors of levels of SHBG, which would
indicate an increased risk of cardiovascular disease.Another study has connected gluten with neurological illness (9). This group
of researchers tested 53 patients with neurological illness of unknown
origin for antibodies against gliadin. More than half of them (30 people)
demonstrated these antibodies. Nine of those folks proved to have celiac
disease, but the other 21 only demonstrated an immune response to gluten, of
a type that is often dismissed as meaningless. This study has some
far-reaching implications for neurological research.Yet another indication that celiacs are not the only segment of the
population to suffer from the adverse effects of gluten is a study that was
carried out on a very small group of siblings of celiacs(10). When subjected
to rectal gluten challenge, half of the siblings showed an immune response
to gluten, but these results did not correlate with the hereditary
predictors of celiac disease.As for the connection between autoimmunity and cereal grains, it is clear
and compelling. The theoretical perspective of molecular mimicry suggests
that gliadin-derived peptides, may activate the immune system against
collagenous tissues, and since intestinal permeability (not celiac disease)
is all that is required to allow the passage of these peptides into the
bloodstream, a significant number of many types of autoimmune diseases seem
likely to benefit from a gluten-free diet (11 ).In total, then, there are several studies which demonstrate (often
coincidentally) that a much larger group than those with celiac disease are
mounting an immune response against gluten, and that this response is
causing or contributing to serious illness. Phytic acid in whole cereal
grains binds to minerals, including calcium. This chemical bond is not
broken in the GI tract. The net result is the binding and wasting of
much-needed dietary calcium, even among those whose immune systems can
tolerate gluten, and these grains may be implicated in osteoporosis (12).
I would now like to draw your attention back to the issue of malignancy.
_Medical Hypotheses_ will soon publish, a paper I have written which
suggests (among other things) that gluten may be implicated in a great many
cases of lymphoma (14). Gluten has been demonstrated to interfere with the
celiac patient's ability to mount an immune response to malignancies
(15,16,17). In my paper, I have postulated a dynamic whereby gluten may have
a similar effect in others who are simply sensitive to gluten, or who have a
sub-clinical form of this disease.Ray Audette, a populist writer, has said that Stanislaw Tanchou "....gave
the first formula for predicting cancer risk. It was based on grain
consumption and was found to accurately calculate cancer rates in major
European cities. The more grain consumed, the greater the rate of cancer."
Tanchou's paper was delivered to the Paris Medical Society in 1843(20).We hear all the time about pollution in the industrial world being the
source for modern man's high incidence of cancer. It is the chemical
additives, we are told, in the food we eat, that causes much of the
problem. Perhaps.I would like to suggest that the evidence from antiquity, the pattern of the
spread of agriculture in Europe coinciding with the patterns of civilizatory
illnesses, the levels of SBHG associated with wheat consumption, the high
incidence of gliadin antibodies among those with neurological illnesses of
unknown origin, the sensitivity to gluten among siblings of celiacs in spite
of the absence of genetic indicators associated with celiac disease, and my
own investigation of the literature regarding lymphoma, all point to the
strong possibility that gluten is a dangerous substance to many more people
than just celiacs.
Sources:1. Eaton B, Konner M, Shostak M, " Stone Agers in the Fast Lane: Chronic
Degenerative Diseases in Evolutionary Perspective" _The American Journal of
Medicine_ 1988; 84:739-7492. Eaton S, Konner M, "Paleolithic Nutrition" _NEJM_ 1985; 312(5): 283-289
3. Eaton S, Nelson D, "Calcium in evolutionary perspective" _Am. J. Clin.
Nutr._1991; 54: 281S - 287S4. Lutz W J, "The Colonisation of Europe and Our Western Diseases" _Medical
Hypotheses_ 1995; 45: 115-1205. Lindeberg S, et al. "Cardiovascular risk factors in a Melanesian
population apparently free from stroke and ischaemic heart disease:
the Kitava study" _J Intern Med_ 1994 Sep.6. Lewin R, "A Revolution of Ideas in Agricultural Origins" _Science_ 1988;
240: 984-9867. Zimmerman M, "The paleopathology of the cardiovascular system" _Tex Heart
Inst J_ 1993; 20(4): 252-2578. Gates et. al. "Association of dietary factors and selected plasma
variables with sex hormone-binding globulin in rural Chinese women"
Am J Clin Nutr 1996; 63: 22-31.9. Hadjivassiliou M, Gibson A, Davies-Jones G, Lobo A, Stephenson T,
Milford-Ward A, "Does cryptic gluten sensitivity play a part in neurological
illness?" _Lancet_ 1996; 347: 369-37110. Troncone R, Greco L, Mayer M, Mazzarella G, Maiuri L, Congia M, Frau F,
deVirgilis S, Auricchio S, "In Siblings of Celiac Children, Rectal Gluten
Challenge Reveals Gluten Sensitization Not Restricted to Celiac HLA"
_Gastroenterology_ 1996; 111: 318-32411. Ostenstad B, Dybwad A, Lea T, Forre O, Vinje O, Sioud M, "Evidence for
monoclonal expansion of synovial T cells bearing V Alpha 2.1/V beta 5.5
gene segments and recognizing a syntehtic peptide that shares homology with
a number of putative autoantigens"12. Lindeberg, Staffan, personal correspondence Feb, 1997
14. Hoggan R, "Considering Wheat, Rye, and Barley Proteins as Aids to
Carcinogens" _Medical Hypotheses_ In Press 1997.15. Maclaurin B, Cooke W, Ling N, "Impaired lymphocyte reactivity against
tumour cells in patients with coeliac disease" _Gut_ 1971; 12: 794-80016. Egan L, Walsh S, Stevens F, Connolly C, Egan E, McCarthy C,
"Celiac-Associated Lymphoma" _Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology_ 1995;
21(2): 123-12917. Swinson C, Slavin G, Coles E, Booth C, "Coeliac Disease and Malignancy"
_Lancet_ 1983; Jan 15: 111-11518. Armelagos G, Van Gerven D, Martin D, Huss-Ashmore R, "Effects of
Nutritional Change on the Skeletal Biology of Northeast African (Sudanese
Nubian) Populations" _From Hunters to Farmers The Causes and Consequences of
Food Production in Africa_ Clark & Brandt (eds.) 1984; II: 37-14619. Simoons F, "Celiac disease as a geographic problem" _Food, Nutrition
and Evolution_ 1981; eds. Walcher D, and Kretchmer N, Masson Publishing,
New York20. Audette R, lowcarb listserv at: <lowcarb@manual.com>, March 11, 1997
from: Vilhjalmur Stefansson's book _Cancer Disease of
Civilization_ 1960; Hill and Wang, New York, NY.Background Sources:
21. Davis D, "Paleolithic Diet, Evolution, and Carcinogens" _Science_ 1987;
238: 1633-163422. Carpenter K, "Protein requirements of adults from an evolutionary
perspective" _Am J Clin Nutr_1992; 55: 913-91723. Eaton S, "Humans, Lipids and Evolution" _LIPIDS_ 1992; 27(10): 814-819
24. Troncone R, Greco L, Mayer M, Mazzarella G, Maiuri L, Congia M, Frau F,
deVirgilis S, Auricchio S, "In Siblings of Celiac Children, Rectal Gluten
Challenge Reveals Gluten Sensitization Not Restricted to Celiac HLA"
_Gastroenterology_ 1996; 111: 318-32425. Marsh M, "Bone Disease and Gluten Sensitivity: Time to Act, to Treat,
and to Prevent" _The American Journal of Gastroenterology_ 1994; 89(12):
2105-210726. Young T, Hochman R, Scopelliti J, "Celiac Disease and Arthropathy: Case
Report and Literature Review" _The Guthrie Journal_ 1993; 62(3): 99-10427. Lindh E, Ljunghall S, Larsson K, Lavo B, " Screening for antibodies
against gliadin in patients with osteoporosis" _Journal of Internal
Medicine_ 1992; 231: 403-40628. de Boer W, Maas M, Tytgat G, "Disappearance of Mesenteric
Lymphadenopathy with Gluten-Free Diet in Celiac Sprue" _Journal of Clinical
Gastroenterology_ 1993; 16(4): 317-31929. Mathus-Vliegen E, Halteren H, Tytgat G, "Malignant lymphoma in coeliac
disease: various manifestations with distinct symptomatology and prognosis?"
_Journal of Internal Medicine_ 1994; 236: 43-4930. Rosenberg S, "The Low-Grade Non-Hodgkin's Lymphomas: Challenges and
Opportunities" _Journal of Clinical Oncology" 1985; 3(3): 299-31028. Swinson C, Coles E, Slavin G, Booth C, "Coeliac Disease and Malignancy"
_Lancet_ 1983; Jan 15: 111-11531. Wright D, Jones D, Clark H, Mead G, Hodges E, Howell W, "Is adult-onset
coeliac disease due to a low-grade lymphoma of intraepithelial T
lymphocytes?" _Lancet_ 1991; 337: 1373-137432. Gouldie R, Lee F, "Coeliac disease and lymphoma" _Lancet_ 1991; 338: 570
33. Freeman H, Weinstein W, Shnitka T, Piercey J, Wensel R, " Pirmary
abdominal Lymphoma" _The American Journal of Medicine_ 1977; 63: 585-59434. Holmes G, Piror P, Lane M, Pope D, Allan R, "Malignancy in coeliac
disease-effect of a gluten free diet" _Gut_ 1989; 30: 333-33835. Sturgess R, Ciclitira P, "Coeliac disease and lymphoma" _Lancet_ 1991;
338: 318-31936. Egan L, Walsh S, Stevens F, Connolly C, Egan E, McCarthy C, _Journal of
Clinical Gastroenterology_ 1995; 21(20: 123-12937. Lopes P, Morris D, Galbraith P, Lillicrap D, Pross H,
"Lymphoproliferative Disease of "Lak Cell" precursor Large Granular
Lymphocytes in Association with Celiac Disease" _American Journal of
Hematology_ 1993; 43: 116-12238. Black, Paul "Psychoneuroimmunology: Brain and Immunology" _Scientific
American: SCIENCE & MEDICINE_ 1995; 2(6): 16-2539. Kapur A, Isaacs P, Kelsey P, "Linear IgA dermatosis, coeliac disease,
and extralinear B cell lymphoma" _Gut_ 1995; 37: 731-73340. Ilyas M, Niedobitek G, Agathanggelou A, Barry R, Read A, Tierney R,
Young L, Rooney N, "NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA, COELIAC DISEASE, AND
EPSTIEN-BARR VIRUS: A STUDY OF 13 CASES OF ENTEROPATHY-ASSOCIATED T- AND
B-CELL LYMPHOMA" _Journal of Pathology_ 1995; 177: 115-12241. Cooke W, Holmes G, _Coeliac Disease_ 1984; Churchill Livingstone, NY
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2003, at 9:31:27
In reply to Larry, Re: Celiac disease and depression, posted by McPac on June 30, 2003, at 13:59:31
> Lar, MIGHT the easier solution be HEALING the leaky gut in the first place (and then being able to eat whatever WITHOUT the reaction)? Another site on-line (Dr. Stoll) harps on this constantly....he (and other followers) STRONGLY emphasizes SKILLED RELAXATION as one of THE main components of healing a leaky gut AND overall mental/physical health. Have you ever looked into Skilled Relaxation Lar? Many SWEAR by it. Another HUGE problem he talks about constantly is "bracing" (don't know if you're aware of this concept). Sooooooo many ideas/possible causes/possible solutions/theories, etc.....you'd have to live to be 1,000 yrs old to try them all out! Thoughts Lar? Thanks!!
Just for the record, this Dr. Stoll is not the Dr. Stoll of fish oil fame.
I've read through most of the entire site, and my gut reaction is "fringe", i.e. the fringe of reality. Some of the concepts are bizarre, like the idea that cerebro-spinal fluid is circulated via pulses of the skull bones. Gahh!
Now, the utility of meditation in controlling stress is without question, IMHO. Although I've not heard the term Skilled Relaxation before, I'm certainly familiar with the outcome. However, I don't see how it could possibly cure leaky gut syndrome.
Lar
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 10:22:43
In reply to Lar, Re: Celiac disease and depression, posted by McPac on June 30, 2003, at 1:27:17
This discussion is interesting to me for a few reasons.
First, when I was 21, I became a vegetarian. I remained so for 4 years. Two years into it, at age 23, I developed symptoms of OCD, for which I took Serzone. Two years after that, at 25, I was dx'd with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, treated, started eating meat again, and now at 27 no longer have the ocd symptoms and am not on meds.
Meanwhile, a friend is developing some symptoms of psychosis (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030617/msgs/237122.html), and this is approximately 7 months after she switched to a vegan diet. I wonder if she could be affected by an allergy to something that she commonly eats, or may be gluten intolerant and is 'filling up' on glutens much of the time?
Maybe I could use suggest that she consider getting tested for these things? Even without the link, she has a very sensitive body and suffers from digestive problems.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2003, at 11:22:38
In reply to vegetarianism/mental health problems?, posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 10:22:43
> This discussion is interesting to me for a few reasons.
>
> First, when I was 21, I became a vegetarian. I remained so for 4 years. Two years into it, at age 23, I developed symptoms of OCD, for which I took Serzone. Two years after that, at 25, I was dx'd with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, treated, started eating meat again, and now at 27 no longer have the ocd symptoms and am not on meds.
>
> Meanwhile, a friend is developing some symptoms of psychosis (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030617/msgs/237122.html), and this is approximately 7 months after she switched to a vegan diet. I wonder if she could be affected by an allergy to something that she commonly eats, or may be gluten intolerant and is 'filling up' on glutens much of the time?
>
> Maybe I could use suggest that she consider getting tested for these things? Even without the link, she has a very sensitive body and suffers from digestive problems.Grains are certainly a central component of a vegan diet (without a whole lot of effort expended on their exclusion). As an hypothesis for the symptoms, gluten reactivity is quite a reasonable consideration. Moreover, the fact that you describe her as "sensitive" and having digestive problems, is corroborative in itself.
Lar
P.S. Hashimoto's is a very poorly understood syndrome. Just thinking through what I seem to understand about it, it is certainly possible that dietary factors (e.g. gluten reactivity) may trigger it. Hmmmm......
It took me ten seconds to find this:
Eur J Endocrinol. 2002 Apr;146(4):479-83.
Markers of potential coeliac disease in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis.Valentino R, Savastano S, Maglio M, Paparo F, Ferrara F, Dorato M, Lombardi G, Troncone R.
CNR, Experimental Endocrinology and Oncology Center (CEOS), Department of Cellular and Molecular Biology and Pathology, University Federico II, Naples, Italy. troncone@unina.it
OBJECTIVE: Coeliac disease (CD) is associated with autoimmune thyroid disease. Gluten sensitivity represents a spectrum, with at one end cases with severe gluten-dependent enteropathy, and at the other subjects with minor signs of deranged mucosal immune response. The aim of this paper was to look for signs of minor small bowel injury and immunohistochemical markers of gluten sensitivity in a group of patients with Hashimoto's disease. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Fourteen patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis without serological evidence of CD underwent immunohistochemical analysis of jejunal biopsies. RESULTS: In 6/14 cases (43%) an increased density of gammadelta T cell receptor bearing intra-epithelial lymphocytes was found. In 6/14 (43%) signs of mucosal T cell activation (presence of interleukin 2 (IL2) receptor (CD25) on lamina propria T cells and/or expression of human lymphocyte antigen (HLA)-DR molecules on crypt epithelial cells) were noted. In 4 out of 6 such cases, HLA haplotypes were described in association with CD. CONCLUSION: A significant proportion of patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis present signs of 'potential' CD and of activated mucosal T cell immunity. The gluten dependence of such findings remains to be ascertained.
Posted by johnj on July 1, 2003, at 17:39:08
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems? » bookgurl99, posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2003, at 11:22:38
Hi Larry,
How is everything going? On the road still? Thanks for this thread it is very interesting. I haven't been around very much since I have been feeling better and just have had many demands after work that I can't get to a computer :(
I have something interesting to add and ask you.
I have been told over the past few weeks that I look thin. I didn't want to make a fuss about it but I weighed myself...I have dropped 12 pounds, from 170 to 158. I am a skinny guy but I just thought it was due to sitting so much and not much excercise. Well, I was at my mom's house and she was telling me about a friend who they found out was allergic to wheat. I did some digging and I fit some criteria such as I have lost most of my ass and it hurts to sit.I have noticed one thing and that is since I have added sublingual B-12 and a chewable B-complex, which I let dissolve in my mouth, I have felt really damn good and sleep is good too. I am still on 15 mg of remeron so I don't know if it was the remeron or the vitamins. I do suspect it is both, but maybe malabsorption could be a culprit.
The fact is without my fiber ceral, which contains wheat, I am very constipated. I will wait and see if I start to gain any weight back, but am at a loss at how to fix my diet so that I am regular. I allready eat lots of fruit and not much junk so I am at a loss. I mentioned this to my therapist and she wants to watch the weight issue closely. I just don't want to seem like I am searching for a biological reason for my depression. I know it is a big part but I don't even know if their are accurate tests for these things.
I am definately keeping tabs of my vitamins, they are essential. I think the sublingual types offer an advantage. What do you think?
Thanks and take care, and if you are on the road I hope you stay safe.
johnj
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 17:51:50
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems? » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on July 1, 2003, at 17:39:08
> I just don't want to seem like I am searching for a biological reason for my depression. I know it is a big part but I don't even know if their are accurate tests for these things.
>Well, there _are_ accurate tests for wheat/gluten intolerance. My friend's brother was just diagnosed through a blood test and a biopsy to confirm. He was really glad, as he was becoming increasingly thin and having either constipation or having to run to the bathroom all the time.
Maybe if you got the wheat out of your diet, everything else would come out more .. . smoothly. :D
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2003, at 13:41:01
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems? » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on July 1, 2003, at 17:39:08
> Hi Larry,
>
> How is everything going? On the road still? Thanks for this thread it is very interesting. I haven't been around very much since I have been feeling better and just have had many demands after work that I can't get to a computer :(Feeling better is :), not :(.
Ya, I'm about a third of the way through a six-week stretch on the road. Just got in.
> I have something interesting to add and ask you.
> I have been told over the past few weeks that I look thin. I didn't want to make a fuss about it but I weighed myself...I have dropped 12 pounds, from 170 to 158. I am a skinny guy but I just thought it was due to sitting so much and not much excercise. Well, I was at my mom's house and she was telling me about a friend who they found out was allergic to wheat. I did some digging and I fit some criteria such as I have lost most of my ass and it hurts to sit.
>
> I have noticed one thing and that is since I have added sublingual B-12 and a chewable B-complex, which I let dissolve in my mouth, I have felt really damn good and sleep is good too.Good news.
> I am still on 15 mg of remeron so I don't know if it was the remeron or the vitamins.
I'd go with the vitamins, but hey!, I'm biased.
>I do suspect it is both, but maybe malabsorption could be a culprit.
I think malabsorption is far more common than everybody thinks it is.
> The fact is without my fiber ceral, which contains wheat, I am very constipated.There are lots of ways to get fiber without resorting to whole grains. Psyllium (Metamucil) is soluble fiber.
>I will wait and see if I start to gain any weight back, but am at a loss at how to fix my diet so that I am regular. I allready eat lots of fruit and not much junk so I am at a loss. I mentioned this to my therapist and she wants to watch the weight issue closely. I just don't want to seem like I am searching for a biological reason for my depression.
???? Why?
>I know it is a big part but I don't even know if their are accurate tests for these things.
If you keep losing weight, you need to see a doctor for an examination.
> I am definately keeping tabs of my vitamins, they are essential. I think the sublingual types offer an advantage. What do you think?Sublingual forms are advantageous if you have intestinal malabsorption, or if you've been chronically depleted. For e.g. NADH, it's to avoid digestion (either sublingual or enteric-coated, to avoid stomach acid).
> Thanks and take care, and if you are on the road I hope you stay safe.
>
> johnjWell, I'm always safe. It's the other drivers.....
Glad you're feeling better, John.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 4, 2003, at 19:43:42
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems?, posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 17:51:50
I've just done a couple hours of web-searching on exorphins, protein fragments from common foods which have opioid-receptor activity.
There are far more of these peptides (proteins) than I had previously thought, and they are found in other foods, too. I'm going to have to give some serious thought to trying a grain/dairy exclusion diet, just to see if it affects my sense of well-being. My sister is a celiac, so it is quite possible I share that genetic trait.
What was most disconcerting about my search results, however, wasn't just discovering how commonplace these exorphin peptides are. No. What was incredibly disconcerting was discovering that food industry scientists discuss ways to purposefully process foodstuffs in such a way as to maximize the exorphin content. They even created a possible name for these derivatives, "formones", shortened from food hormones. It makes the food ingredient "modified milk ingredients" take on a new, and scary, meaning. Just what the hell is really being added when "modified milk ingredients" are an ingredient in a processed foodstuff?
I'm troubled by this subject right now. I'm going to go watch TV.
Lar
Posted by Bookgurl99 on July 4, 2003, at 23:08:09
In reply to Re: exorphins from grains and milk, posted by Larry Hoover on July 4, 2003, at 19:43:42
Larry,
this is quite fascinating. i never knew that exorphins existed. makes me wonder if some of the 'no-grain/low-grain' new age-y folks have been right all along.
books
p.s. now relax. :D
Posted by galkeepinon on July 5, 2003, at 1:55:49
In reply to Re: Larry, Re: Celiac disease and depression » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2003, at 9:31:27
hi, is celiac disease the same as wheat gluten intolerance? I was wondering if you had a link where you got this info-I am very interested in this. I was told I may have it and wanted to read up. I will also do a search.
Any help would be great.
thanks!
> > Lar, MIGHT the easier solution be HEALING the leaky gut in the first place (and then being able to eat whatever WITHOUT the reaction)? Another site on-line (Dr. Stoll) harps on this constantly....he (and other followers) STRONGLY emphasizes SKILLED RELAXATION as one of THE main components of healing a leaky gut AND overall mental/physical health. Have you ever looked into Skilled Relaxation Lar? Many SWEAR by it. Another HUGE problem he talks about constantly is "bracing" (don't know if you're aware of this concept). Sooooooo many ideas/possible causes/possible solutions/theories, etc.....you'd have to live to be 1,000 yrs old to try them all out! Thoughts Lar? Thanks!!
>
> Just for the record, this Dr. Stoll is not the Dr. Stoll of fish oil fame.
>
> I've read through most of the entire site, and my gut reaction is "fringe", i.e. the fringe of reality. Some of the concepts are bizarre, like the idea that cerebro-spinal fluid is circulated via pulses of the skull bones. Gahh!
>
> Now, the utility of meditation in controlling stress is without question, IMHO. Although I've not heard the term Skilled Relaxation before, I'm certainly familiar with the outcome. However, I don't see how it could possibly cure leaky gut syndrome.
>
> Lar
Posted by Deb R on July 5, 2003, at 4:25:05
In reply to Re: Celiac disease and depression, posted by bookgurl99 on July 1, 2003, at 1:10:33
Hi Bookgurl and thanks for your post, I get more and more hopeful the more I read. I know I shouldnt get too excited about it all, but it just seems to me that there is something in this.
Deb.
Posted by Deb R on July 5, 2003, at 4:39:04
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems?, posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2003, at 13:41:01
Hi to everyone who has written posts - I have been away from the 'net' for a few days and was very happy to see so many posts and lots of info. I have copied all the posts and will have another good read...thanks everyone so much.
Will be in touch,
Deb.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2003, at 8:32:45
In reply to Re: Larry, Re: Celiac disease and depression » Larry Hoover, posted by galkeepinon on July 5, 2003, at 1:55:49
> hi, is celiac disease the same as wheat gluten intolerance?
I would say they're the same thing, only celiac disease is diagnosed by microscopic examination of the intestinal wall following endoscopic biopsy. There have to be certain pathological changes in the cell structures before a *doctor* will call it celiac sprue. You don't have to have severe symptoms to be intolerant of gluten.
>I was wondering if you had a link where you got this info-I am very interested in this.
There's all sorts of info out there. Try www.gluten-free.org
One warning. There is a radical fringe in the diet world. Keep your bullshit detector operating.
>I was told I may have it and wanted to read up. I will also do a search.
> Any help would be great.
> thanks!Plug gluten and celiac into Google, and you could spend weeks checking out each link. Gluten-free is a nice starting point.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2003, at 8:37:25
In reply to Re: exorphins from grains and milk, posted by Bookgurl99 on July 4, 2003, at 23:08:09
> Larry,
>
> this is quite fascinating. i never knew that exorphins existed.Neither did I, before this week, though I seem to recall reading an article or two in the past, which I probably dismissed. Something about exorphins being Mother Nature's way of addicting babies to their mothers, as a bonding mechanism. Bogus arguments like that.
> makes me wonder if some of the 'no-grain/low-grain' new age-y folks have been right all along.
>
> booksThey may have had the right idea, but for the wrong reasons, IMHO. ;-)
> p.s. now relax. :D
Ya. I just hate the idea that food processors could hide behind the "natural source" concept, as exorphins are already present in the raw materials. They're not added, but they can be enhanced. Kind of like monosodium glutamate hiding in the rubric "natural flavour". It's willfully deceptive.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2003, at 9:12:29
In reply to Re: vegetarianism/mental health problems?..all..., posted by Deb R on July 5, 2003, at 4:39:04
When I read an article like this, and consider that the standard treatment is still antipsychotic medication (with all those adverse effects), I just don't know what to say......
Schizophr Bull. 1988;14(4):489-94.
Genetic hypothesis of idiopathic schizophrenia: its exorphin connection.
Dohan FC.
Medical College of Pennsylvania, Eastern Pennsylvania, Psychiatric Institute, Philadelphia 19129.
This brief overview proposes a testable oligogenic model of the inheritance of susceptibility to idiopathic schizophrenia: "abnormal" genes at each of a few complementary loci. The model is based on my assumptions as to the likely genetic abnormalities at possibly four or five interacting loci that would permit exorphins, the opioid peptides from some food proteins, especially glutens and possibly caseins, to go from gut to brain and cause symptoms of schizophrenia. Exorphins may reach the brain cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in harmful amounts because of their genetically increased, receptor-mediated transcellular passage across the gut epithelial barrier plus decreased catabolism by genetically defective enzymes. A schizophrenia-specific, genetically enhanced affinity for exorphins by opioid receptors influencing dopaminergic and other neurons would permit sustained dysfunction at low CSF exorphin concentrations. Tests of each postulated genetic abnormality are suggested. This model is supported by a variety of evidence, including a significant effect of gluten or its absence on relapsed schizophrenic patients, the high correlation of changes in first admission rates for schizophrenia with changes in grain consumption rates, and the rarity of cases of schizophrenia where grains and milk are rare.
Posted by galkeepinon on July 5, 2003, at 15:13:29
In reply to Re: Larry, Re: Celiac disease and depression, posted by Larry Hoover on July 5, 2003, at 8:32:45
Posted by galkeepinon on July 7, 2003, at 13:44:27
In reply to Thanks Lar-appreciate it! (nm), posted by galkeepinon on July 5, 2003, at 15:13:29
hi, I did some searching and man I think I have the gluten-intolerance/celiac disease for sure. What amazes me though, is the limited or should I say VERY limited amount of foods one is able to consume in having this condition. I've got some re-vamping to do with my diet.
Thanks for turning me on to this. I have got a lot of info I didn't know existed.
gal
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:23:31
In reply to paging Lar Hoover-celiac/gluten free disease......, posted by galkeepinon on July 7, 2003, at 13:44:27
> hi, I did some searching and man I think I have the gluten-intolerance/celiac disease for sure. What amazes me though, is the limited or should I say VERY limited amount of foods one is able to consume in having this condition. I've got some re-vamping to do with my diet.
Ya, I hear you. You may want to take a look at what's called the paleo diet, supposedly the same sorts of things our prehistoric ancestors ate. Kind of hunter-gatherer attitude. The reason I'm saying that is it's already been thought out, telling you what you can eat, which may be easier than trying to eliminate foods from your present diet.
> Thanks for turning me on to this. I have got a lot of info I didn't know existed.
> galYou're welcome.....but it was Deb's thread. I'm thankful to her for bringing it up, because it is forcing me to face the issue as well. Untreated celiac disease is associated with increased risk of digestive system cancer, so it's anything but trivial.
Lar
Posted by galkeepinon on July 12, 2003, at 18:20:58
In reply to Re: paging Lar Hoover-celiac/gluten free disease...... » galkeepinon, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:23:31
> > You're welcome.....but it was Deb's thread. I'm thankful to her for bringing it up, because it is forcing me to face the issue as well. Untreated celiac disease is associated with increased risk of digestive system cancer, so it's anything but trivial.
Kudos to Deb-Deb, thank you so much! I am as well thankful. This issue is anything but trivial Lar, I agree with you, and I intend to do more research on it. I truly, personally believe that the kind of hunter-gatherer attitude is the way to go concerning this painful, complicated condition. I will post if I find anything I feel would benefit others here. Colon cancer (AKA digestive system cancer,etc.) is so common-yet not a lot of people are aware of preventative measures, causes, etc.
It's a shame. How it affects our moods is a whole other story.
Galhi, I did some searching and man I think I have the gluten-intolerance/celiac disease for sure. What amazes me though, is the limited or should I say VERY limited amount of foods one is able to consume in having this condition. I've got some re-vamping to do with my diet.
>
> Ya, I hear you. You may want to take a look at what's called the paleo diet, supposedly the same sorts of things our prehistoric ancestors ate. Kind of hunter-gatherer attitude. The reason I'm saying that is it's already been thought out, telling you what you can eat, which may be easier than trying to eliminate foods from your present diet.
>
> > Thanks for turning me on to this. I have got a lot of info I didn't know existed.
> > gal
>
> You're welcome.....but it was Deb's thread. I'm thankful to her for bringing it up, because it is forcing me to face the issue as well. Untreated celiac disease is associated with increased risk of digestive system cancer, so it's anything but trivial.
>
> Lar
Posted by Deb R on July 13, 2003, at 4:29:02
In reply to Re: paging Lar Hoover-celiac/gluten free disease...... » galkeepinon, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:23:31
Hi Larry,
Thanks for all your input to this thread, I really have appreciated your help. There is a lot of info out there, I went to the library and found a pile of books - including recipe books, so that was helpful. I have printed off your posts and it is all becoming more clear in my mind. Even if Mums symptoms are eased by 20% by a change in diet, that would be just fantastic.
Mum is having the endoscopy in August, so we will see. Good luck to you......and thanks again,
Deb.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 13, 2003, at 7:52:58
In reply to Re: Larry - , posted by Deb R on July 13, 2003, at 4:29:02
> Hi Larry,
>
> Thanks for all your input to this thread, I really have appreciated your help. There is a lot of info out there, I went to the library and found a pile of books - including recipe books, so that was helpful. I have printed off your posts and it is all becoming more clear in my mind. Even if Mums symptoms are eased by 20% by a change in diet, that would be just fantastic.
>
> Mum is having the endoscopy in August, so we will see. Good luck to you......and thanks again,
>
> Deb.You're welcome, Deb.
Don't forget, this is a genetic trait, usually. Your mom may not be the only one to benefit from a restriction diet.
All the best,
Lar
Posted by Deb R on July 14, 2003, at 7:59:34
In reply to Re: Larry - » Deb R, posted by Larry Hoover on July 13, 2003, at 7:52:58
Hi Larry,
Yes it is a bit scary to think of the genetic implications - we have three kids, plus I have 2 sisters and a brother, and they all have kids....and on it goes.
Good luck with your search too Larry...I will keep in touch..
Deb.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.