![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 538 to 562 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 22:11:45
In reply to A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:44:59
NO I haven't. And you? Why do you have some in your cabinet? Let me know what happens....
I upped my Dep. today and I'm knocked out. sluggish, exhausted - like before when I was taking it during the day. I don't think this will work to take it during the day. I'll give it 'til tomorrow.
k.
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 0:03:08
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 22:11:45
I have some in my cabinet because for a while I tried to go it without meds and failed miserably and so threw the baby out with the bathwater and stopped taking them. But I kept them and I do know about amino acids and their pathways as precursors to neurotransmitters and have had good results in the past when taking them with psych meds.
I have hypothyroidism and tyrosine is supposed to help with this so I was taking it for a while and noticed a definite upswing in my mood. I also got hypomanic around that time and got scared that tyrosine was doing it because I was feeling so darned good. I get concerned when I start feeling too darned good (where's that alcohol?)and if what I'm taking is doing it, but I've had so many stressful events that, well, take your pick, any one will do just fine.
For me, tyrosine is preferred because of the thyroid thing, but for others, phenylalanine is quicker and more effective. Phenylalanine has two branches, D- and L- and I believe the D- branch is better for pain control and the L- for mood, but taking both is fine also and DL-phenylalanine is alot easier to find in stores.
Now, I may have the order of this this wrong, but phenylalanine converts to tyrosine at which point it goes in multiple pathways, one of which is as a precursor to dopamine which then goes on to become norepinephrine. Again, don't take my word for it as far as the when and where in the chain of events, but they all are affliates of each each other and will eventually end up round about at the same place, making dopamine and norepinephrine.
Check 'em out, Katia, and see if they ring any bells for you. Wish I had a website for you... oh, here, found one I visited before:
http://www.thewayup.com/products/0094.htm
Patricia Slagle depends a little too much on amino acids curing every dang thing, but she probably is the authority on mood disorders/amino acids and has a clinic where that's mainly what she uses. If you can ignore the evangelical tone, the website is a treasurehouse of good info. Her advice to take tyrosine with Vit B6 and at certain times of day is very sound. Aminos can counteract each other, some need to be taken with or without meals, and some need catalyzers enzymes to do their job. Her products have what's needed for best efficacy, so it's not a bad idea to consider her products for this reason and they're not a bad price either.
I did notice a definite pep in my step with L-tyrosine, but being hypothyroid I'll never know if it was the amino acid by itself, or if it was simply improving my hypothryoid condition. Who the hell cares? I'm ready to give it the old college try again.- B
> NO I haven't. And you? Why do you have some in your cabinet? Let me know what happens....
> I upped my Dep. today and I'm knocked out. sluggish, exhausted - like before when I was taking it during the day. I don't think this will work to take it during the day. I'll give it 'til tomorrow.
> k.
Posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 0:24:53
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 0:03:08
Hi,
I actually was taking L-tyrosine along with the periodic 5-HTP when an inkling of a thought told me I might be suffering from depression (a year and a half ago when I was in Scotland); it was finally occuring to me that not everyone lived so whacked out like me. And when I was taking it, I fell into a suicidal depression; so I don't think it did much for me at that time. I am definitely up for trying it but as I have this metabolic testing tomorrow and then my pdoc's appt. on Friday, I'll try and remember to mention it to both of them and see what they say about amino acids/vitamins in the good ole' cure for craziness.I just had another thought re: feeling too good to stay there. (oh, btw, I meant that not good enough for good - what I meant by that is maybe some self-destructive demonish part of me doesn't allow me to be happy - so I reach for the chardonnay?)
but the other thought on that is, after all these years of intense wild rides of trouble, chaos, and depth of feeling, maybe content is SCARY because it might be BORING. Maybe there's a part of that going on in my subconscious too. Fear of boredom so self-sabotaging to get some action????? Or maybe afraid of what I actually can do and BE? afraid of my strength and power and potential.
It's all so very complicated =:-(
at the end of the day, all I need is food, love, and affection!!!! yea right.
nighty night.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 11:33:06
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 0:24:53
Hi everyone--
I was shocked to see my mailbox full of maybe 40 posts!
I'm not sure how to wedge my way back into the conversation. But I can say that I relate very much to the alchohol binging. I only seem to do it when I'm "up" (like Barb-cat). It's like--hey! I feel great! Paaaaarty! I think I spent all of last summer hypomanic, drinking like a fish. I would have at least 5 drinks in an evening, never realizing that I was drinking my friends under the table. I'm sure I was having WAAAAY more fun than them in my head. I did stupid things---like hooking up with guys I knew had girlfriends (some of their girlfriends were my FRIENDS!!). And I, too, enjoyed the hangovers (in a weird way). I felt all buzzed out--and a big, greasy burrito tasted so good. Then I'd sleep really well for 2 days. Then right back at it. It didn't help that my neighbor was an alchoholic. (turns out he's just been diagnosed borderline (or maybe bipolar--not sure). So, boy--did we feed off of one another.
I don't miss getting drunk one bit!! Like Barb-cat, I'm working towards that centered happiness. Exercise (and Lithium) seems to be helping me a great deal. I'm doing a short session of iyengar yoga when I wake, and taking a 20 min. jog when I get off from work.
One problem though...maybe you guys can help. I am still having trouble sleeping! I haven't been able to sleep unless I take Temazepam. I feel I may be on the verge of being addicted to the stuff. Do you know if taking a sleep supplement would be harmful to my "coctail" of meds? I bought this stuff from a health food store that contains valerian and GABA, and a bunch of other stuff. My doc didn't seem too keen on it. Maybe I should just bug him...
Any suggestions from experience? Benadryl makes no dent, Ambien lets me sleep for 4 hours, melatonin--no dent. This Temazepam is juuuuussst right! But addictive!Anyway--good luck to all. I'm going to wrap my head around all that has been said over the past two days. Please take care.
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 11:38:15
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 0:24:53
Katia,
> I actually was taking L-tyrosine along with the periodic 5-HTP And when I was taking it, I fell into a suicidal depression;**I also felt horrible on 5-HTP, which surprised me because it's a serotonin precursor and gee, isn't serotonin implicated as the big player in depression?. My naturopath said she used to prescribe it for depression all the time until some new research that says it can exacerbate it very badly. Some things I've read recently say that depression isn't a serotonin deficiency at all but rather a serotonin excess, which blew my mind but it makes sense. Serotonin and dopamine balance each other. When serotonin is up, dopamine levels are down, and some new evidence says that it's actually the lack of dopamine and it's cohort norepinephrine that cause the anhedonia, the lack of energy and motivation, all the crap associated with depression. Serotonin is the 'Freeze' of the fight/flight/freeze reaction. We can't really fight or flight anymore in this society so we freeze and all the deadening sludge that goes with it. It's probably alot more complicated than just an overload of serotonin, and one (like me) never knows if too much of anything activating is going to spin me into an anxiety state which is worse than depression. But I too had a bad effect from 5-HTP. Not so much from L-tryptophan, but still, not good. On the other hand, the few recent days on L-tyrosine at least haven't made me feel worse.
> I just had another thought re: feeling too good to stay there. (oh, btw, I meant that not good enough for good - what I meant by that is maybe some self-destructive demonish part of me doesn't allow me to be happy - so I reach for the chardonnay?) Maybe content is SCARY because it might be BORING.
**I hear you loud and clear and I think the same. Being manic is such a rush, so wild and unique. There's no one else with the same brand of insanity as ourselves and the dull trudge of the masses seems so dull. What comes to mind is the difference between being out of control drunk and the clear peace of simple joy. I can have a total blast when I'm out partying but the next few days I wish to God I hadn't indulged so heartily and after a few nights of partying I'm ready to say goodbye cruel world. On the contrary, getting and staying clear in my head and body just keeps feeling and getting better. That is, when I've managed to clean myself out long enough to start noticing sweet little quiet joys again. Ain't been that way for far too long. I look at the many (most) nights I've had quite a few of those buttery chardonnays. I am taking a good hard look at how just maybe those 2-3 (hell, whose counting?) glasses of lovely chilled golden nectar sliding down my throat might perhaps be keeping me in hell. But, oh, those lovely colorful drinks with little umbrellas on a sunset Hawaiian beach certainly do seem like Heaven at the time...
I thank you for the Rational Recovery reminder. I'm on my way out the door to buy Trimpey's book "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction". I've already gone through the website, and the 'quickie' big plan but the book seems to go more into The Beast concept which intrigues me to no end. I really appreciate it's self-empowerment concept alot and understand why I've never jibed with AA.
Your reference to the 'demonish self-destructive voice' is explained very clearly and recognizably as The Beast in AVRT (Rational Recovery) parlance.
I'm ready, I tell ya. I'm ready to do all I can to give my brain chemistry a break and a leg up against this horror called depression, bipolar, whatever the hell it is, and I've got to admit that drinking sure helps in the short run but is doing me no favors in the long run. Maybe abstinence won't be the entire answer but indulgence is very assuredly a very huge hindrance. Gotta run and get the book! - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 13:26:29
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 11:38:15
Hi Barb,
>>Serotonin and dopamine balance each other. When serotonin is up, dopamine levels are down, and some new evidence says that it's actually the lack of dopamine and it's cohort norepinephrine that cause the anhedonia, the lack of energy and motivation, all the crap associated with depression
I've heard that that is used as a diagnositical tool. Depending on how your depression manifests itself - anhedonia or utter despair/crying all the time, depends on where your deficiency lies. As you know, not all depressions are the same and there are so many of neurotransmitters running around having good days and bad days and then fighting with each other for the spot light, there's not straightforward answer!
Also, the 5HTP helps with depression (or supposedly does) like an AD right? i shouldn't be on ADs anyway so I understand if it didn't help me at the time.
I'm trying to figure out what sort of state I've been experiencing the past week - mixed or depressed? It's important to know. Altho' i have no sexual partner, my sex drive is definitely not low. is this an indicator?
gotta run too.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 14:20:59
In reply to Sheesh! I leave for two days...., posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 11:33:06
Sorry--
I'm an airhead-- I realized I asked this question a long time ago in this thread. I got lots of good suggestions. Sorry for repeating myself. i just have to talk to my doc on this one.
katy> One problem though...maybe you guys can help. I am still having trouble sleeping! I haven't been able to sleep unless I take Temazepam. I feel I may be on the verge of being addicted to the stuff. Do you know if taking a sleep supplement would be harmful to my "coctail" of meds? I bought this stuff from a health food store that contains valerian and GABA, and a bunch of other stuff. My doc didn't seem too keen on it. Maybe I should just bug him...
> Any suggestions from experience? Benadryl makes no dent, Ambien lets me sleep for 4 hours, melatonin--no dent. This Temazepam is juuuuussst right! But addictive!
>
> Anyway--good luck to all. I'm going to wrap my head around all that has been said over the past two days. Please take care.
>
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 14:49:36
In reply to Sheesh! I leave for two days...., posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 11:33:06
Hi Katy,
Welcome back - wondered where ya went! As far as the sleep thing, here's a suggestion. Wait until you feel good and stable with lithium, exercise, etc (soooooooo glad the lithium is helping!!! When it does, you bless the day you finally threw in the towell). That way you won't derail any good effects with lack of sleep. Don't be too concerned with addiction at this point because you can always unaddict yourself, if that's really the case, once your brain chemicals aren't wonked and you have that centered feeling to fall back on.Then, when you feel like you want to go at it without temazapam, taper off over a week's period or so. You won't get as good a night's sleep to be sure, but it won't be as bad as if you went cold turkey. There's bound to be some rebound as your gaba receptors readjust, but won't be as uncomfortable as if you were unstable to start with. GABA supplements are worthless, they don't cross the blood brain barrier. Valerian can make BPs hyper (it's that paradoxical thang). Magnesium helps taken with Vitamin C and Vitamin B6. Some say melatonin is good, but others say it can deplete your own stores. One that is a nice gentle relaxer is Calms Forte. Nothing that knocks you out, just a homeopathic calmness encourager. But you have to already be on the road and take it as maintenance - it simply takes the edge off the day in a gentle manner. It's not heavy enough artillery to break the prescription sleep med habit.
It took me 1 week to get off Ambien and I had some rough nights. What I did when I just couldn't get to sleep and I was revving was to take a benzo (valium in my case) and it at least stopped the revving. I figure that even though it was in the same ballpark, it wasn't the same med and I'd still be getting over the one I was most tolerant to. As time goes on those revving nights get fewer and when they occur I can live with them even without a sleep aid. Now I'm usually tired at around 10:30pm and go to sleep pretty easily (as long as hubby doesn't rock the timbers with snoring). If I have a revving night, I'm not going to torture myself, figuring my sleep is more important than my white knuckle resolve to go without, and I'll take the valium, or better yet, I have it by the nightstand in case I really need it, like a security blanket. But I'll know if I'm getting too dependent again and don't choose to go that road anymore. I'll get up earlier and work out harder the next day. I may feel cranky and tired, but it's amazing how tiredness helps with falling asleep if you don't have those other crazy chemicals to contend with.
Another good method is to listen to a good sleep inducing CD with headphones. I'm usually out within 10 minutes. It just takes diverting the mind away from 'oh shit, I'm not asleep yet'. A really good series is by BelleRuth Naparstak at www.healthjourneys.com. 'Peaceful Sleep' is a good one. I don't usually go in for the affirmation, imagery stuff, but she has something really fine going on in her work.
Another really important thing is to get into bed by around 10:30pm and turn off the lights. I've gotten finished re-reading "Lights Out" by T.S. Wiley and it is required reading.
I think that with enough exercise, balancing your chemistry and laying off alcohol, especially in the evenings, you're rebalanced body will more than ready to drift off for a visit from Mr. Sandman (hey, that could be something to look forward to!). BCat
> Hi everyone--
>
> I was shocked to see my mailbox full of maybe 40 posts!
>
> I'm not sure how to wedge my way back into the conversation. But I can say that I relate very much to the alchohol binging. I only seem to do it when I'm "up" (like Barb-cat). It's like--hey! I feel great! Paaaaarty! I think I spent all of last summer hypomanic, drinking like a fish. I would have at least 5 drinks in an evening, never realizing that I was drinking my friends under the table. I'm sure I was having WAAAAY more fun than them in my head. I did stupid things---like hooking up with guys I knew had girlfriends (some of their girlfriends were my FRIENDS!!). And I, too, enjoyed the hangovers (in a weird way). I felt all buzzed out--and a big, greasy burrito tasted so good. Then I'd sleep really well for 2 days. Then right back at it. It didn't help that my neighbor was an alchoholic. (turns out he's just been diagnosed borderline (or maybe bipolar--not sure). So, boy--did we feed off of one another.
>
> I don't miss getting drunk one bit!! Like Barb-cat, I'm working towards that centered happiness. Exercise (and Lithium) seems to be helping me a great deal. I'm doing a short session of iyengar yoga when I wake, and taking a 20 min. jog when I get off from work.
>
> One problem though...maybe you guys can help. I am still having trouble sleeping! I haven't been able to sleep unless I take Temazepam. I feel I may be on the verge of being addicted to the stuff. Do you know if taking a sleep supplement would be harmful to my "coctail" of meds? I bought this stuff from a health food store that contains valerian and GABA, and a bunch of other stuff. My doc didn't seem too keen on it. Maybe I should just bug him...
> Any suggestions from experience? Benadryl makes no dent, Ambien lets me sleep for 4 hours, melatonin--no dent. This Temazepam is juuuuussst right! But addictive!
>
> Anyway--good luck to all. I'm going to wrap my head around all that has been said over the past two days. Please take care.
>
> Katy
Posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 15:27:21
In reply to Re: Sheesh! I leave for two days.... » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 14:49:36
Hey Barb-cat--
Thanks for the info about the GABA and valerian...I was wondering about that stuff. You never can tell with these "natural supplements". Not much research on these things on head-cases like us.
I guess the reason I'm cringing about the Temazepam thing is that I'm almost out. My doc warned me to not become too dependent on them. He said--only 2 or 3 times a week. Well...it's been 4 days in a row that I've taken this stuff. And only one pill left! I guess I should call him. *sigh* I do need to try to taper off.
thanks for the advice again!
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 15:30:05
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 13:26:29
> I've heard that that is used as a diagnositical tool. Depending on how your depression manifests itself - anhedonia or utter despair/crying all the time, depends on where your deficiency lies.
**Yeah, depression is a totally inept word to call those two very differing states. I get both but the worst by far is the despair/crying and that's my mixed states state.
> Also, the 5HTP helps with depression (or supposedly does) like an AD right? i shouldn't be on ADs anyway so I understand if it didn't help me at the time.
**Well, the whole SSRI serotonin uptake theory is up for debate right now. No doubt they help with some kinds of depression but the mechanism as to how and why isn't looking like it's the uptake at the synaptic cleft theory that's the cause. So, yes, 5-HTP increases serotonin but low serotonin may not be the problem. The disconnect may be occurring further downline in the second messenger system. Detractors of SSRI's helping depression (not the fanatics, just those who say they're not very effective long term) make alot of sense, but I sure couldn't quote them at the moment. I only know they made me very very suicidally depressed.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what sort of state I've been experiencing the past week - mixed or depressed? It's important to know. Altho' i have no sexual partner, my sex drive is definitely not low. is this an indicator?**Dopamine definitely perks up the sex drive. Serotonin dampens it, SSRI's kill it. But beats me what that means about the spectrum. But using sex drive is an interesting idea to ponder. When I'm high on alcohol or pain killers which rev the dopamine, I want to screw like a bunny. If I'm mildly hypomanic, I also get rather randy. If I'm full blown manic, sex is the last thing on my mind because I'm in communion with God, the Universe and Everything and sex seems so ho-hum. If I'm apathetically anhedonic sex is also the last thing on my mind cause I feel ugly fat and soooo weary. I dunno. There do seem to be indicators. All this probably has nothing to do with any chemical as we currently know them anyway.
All in all, I can usually tell where I am on the spectrum by my sleep. Depression, I sleep alot, all day if I could. I have enough presence to be totally cynical and disgusted with the human race. Mixed, I wail and pace and am tortured and wrung out and burnt out. I'm super sensitized to pain and doom everywhere, and even though I still don't particularly like most humans, I despair for us all. Mainly I despair for the animals, trees, non-human things. When I can bear to pick up a newspaper, comics are all I can stand, and even they make me weep with their sheer crudeness. I weep in stores. I worry incessantly. Very little sleep, even with way too many sleeping pills. Of couse, this is a definitely recognizable mixed state for me. There are gradients. But again, the sleep thing is usually the tipoff. Also, depression is more turned in, like 'my life sucks, nothing is working, nobody likes me, why is it this way, it will never be any different'. It's mostly about me and my life being horrible, there's rarely enough energy to dredge up the anguish that's the hallmark of mixed states for me. Mixed states is more existentially awful, the horror of existence, the insane God, shattering. When I think of me and my life during mixed states it's in utter despair and hopelessness which is claustrophonic, panicked and livid with pain instead of the sinking murk of a good old depression.
Posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 18:17:55
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 15:30:05
God, what you've described as mixed sounds exactly like what I've been calling my clinical/suicidal depressions.
I think that I've been chronically clinically depressed and have been calling that wrongly "dysthymia". I know that what i've experienced for the majority of my life is more mod/severe depression.
I have been thinking of my mixed states as when I'm racing around a mile a minute, starting things (projects,classes,etc.) interspersed with underlying and any minute irritability, wired and tired, high energy. Maybe that's the hypo/manic side?
geez, it's hard to figure out especially when you've lived behind the veil of your mind for years on end denying it from yourself and feeling like everyone else felt this way too.
Ummmmmm. I feel ok today. I upped the Dp.to 625 mg. yesterday. Took 125mg in the day and felt exhausted; couldn't go to yoga;couldn't write my 12 pages that are due tomorrow. Took 500mg at night and I felt like I woke up. It took til after 2 to fall asleep. I'm so wierd!!!!
Today, I take 750 at night.I just got back from that metabolic testing. God I was hungry!! Finally at 3:30 I could eat since midnight the night before. I'm a "fast oxidizer" and have a diet regime and lots of prohibotic supplements to take. Appart. my digestive tract is all out of whack. I did a meridan/acupressure testing among other things - the whole thing took three hours. my lungs are good. My heart is great! it's just everything underneath.
The two supplements that gave me that cause a bit of concern are: fish oil and L-Carnitine. The rest just support digestion; but these could affect my mood and I"m wondering if I should be taking/putting other variables into the pot at this point? I'll ask my pdoc. I felt a little silly when I realized that I should've asked him first to see if it would screw things up finding the right med.
Wadda you think?
I've finally met someone more prolific than me Barbara! p.s. that metabolic doc told me only one glass of dopamine at a time (per day and no more than five per week)! that'll be an interesting challenge.
Katia> **Yeah, depression is a totally inept word to call those two very differing states. I get both but the worst by far is the despair/crying and that's my mixed states state.
>
> > Also, the 5HTP helps with depression (or supposedly does) like an AD right? i shouldn't be on ADs anyway so I understand if it didn't help me at the time.
>
> **Well, the whole SSRI serotonin uptake theory is up for debate right now. No doubt they help with some kinds of depression but the mechanism as to how and why isn't looking like it's the uptake at the synaptic cleft theory that's the cause. So, yes, 5-HTP increases serotonin but low serotonin may not be the problem. The disconnect may be occurring further downline in the second messenger system. Detractors of SSRI's helping depression (not the fanatics, just those who say they're not very effective long term) make alot of sense, but I sure couldn't quote them at the moment. I only know they made me very very suicidally depressed.
> >
> > I'm trying to figure out what sort of state I've been experiencing the past week - mixed or depressed? It's important to know. Altho' i have no sexual partner, my sex drive is definitely not low. is this an indicator?
>
> **Dopamine definitely perks up the sex drive. Serotonin dampens it, SSRI's kill it. But beats me what that means about the spectrum. But using sex drive is an interesting idea to ponder. When I'm high on alcohol or pain killers which rev the dopamine, I want to screw like a bunny. If I'm mildly hypomanic, I also get rather randy. If I'm full blown manic, sex is the last thing on my mind because I'm in communion with God, the Universe and Everything and sex seems so ho-hum. If I'm apathetically anhedonic sex is also the last thing on my mind cause I feel ugly fat and soooo weary. I dunno. There do seem to be indicators. All this probably has nothing to do with any chemical as we currently know them anyway.
>
> All in all, I can usually tell where I am on the spectrum by my sleep. Depression, I sleep alot, all day if I could. I have enough presence to be totally cynical and disgusted with the human race. Mixed, I wail and pace and am tortured and wrung out and burnt out. I'm super sensitized to pain and doom everywhere, and even though I still don't particularly like most humans, I despair for us all. Mainly I despair for the animals, trees, non-human things. When I can bear to pick up a newspaper, comics are all I can stand, and even they make me weep with their sheer crudeness. I weep in stores. I worry incessantly. Very little sleep, even with way too many sleeping pills. Of couse, this is a definitely recognizable mixed state for me. There are gradients. But again, the sleep thing is usually the tipoff. Also, depression is more turned in, like 'my life sucks, nothing is working, nobody likes me, why is it this way, it will never be any different'. It's mostly about me and my life being horrible, there's rarely enough energy to dredge up the anguish that's the hallmark of mixed states for me. Mixed states is more existentially awful, the horror of existence, the insane God, shattering. When I think of me and my life during mixed states it's in utter despair and hopelessness which is claustrophonic, panicked and livid with pain instead of the sinking murk of a good old depression.
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 23:29:10
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 3, 2003, at 18:17:55
> God, what you've described as mixed sounds exactly like what I've been calling my clinical/suicidal depressions.
**That's what I used to think. Couldn't decide if it was agitated depression, general anxiety with depression or what. Mixed states is such a new term but what distinguishes it from anxious depression is the psychotic quality of it. It's much more than severe depression because of the explosive wailing and gnashing of teeth aspect and the total out of control nightmare quality. Alot of people are calling their symptoms 'mixed states' lately because the term has made it into the common lexicon, but anxious or irritable depression without that psychotic bipolar-I nightmare flavor ain't mixed states (I'm convinced it's a BP-I thing rather than BP-II because of it's halucinatory hellishness).
Now I could be totally wrong but that horror thing is what I've come to believe is mixed states from the hours and hours of research I've put into it. There really isn't a whole lot out there on it that's consistent. Maybe what you thought, suicidal major depression, is closer to home and what that 'other' thing is - who knows. It sure is different from anything I've ever read about depression. That panicked screaming of the universe is not typical. The closest is Kay Redfield Jamison's description of her awful despairing psychotic depressions as part of her BP-I cycles. She also spoke of hearing 'lettuce screaming' on her salad plate. First time I'd ever heard of someone else experiencing that.
I sometimes think it's schizophrenia, but schiz is not a cyclical thing and it's not so wrought with the awareness of despair.
> I think that I've been chronically clinically depressed and have been calling that wrongly "dysthymia". I know that what i've experienced for the majority of my life is more mod/severe depression.
**Me too. I'd have a mixed whopper every few years or so, but typically mainly mod/severe depression a few times a year, with chunks of time interspered where I felt fine and normal. It was only the last 5-6 or so years that mixed states were becoming way too frequent and overlayed with fibromyalgia symptoms (which I personally think was my body's way of saying "Uncle, had enough, do something!").
> I have been thinking of my mixed states as when I'm racing around a mile a minute, starting things (projects,classes,etc.) interspersed with underlying and any minute irritability, wired and tired, high energy. Maybe that's the hypo/manic side?
**Yes, that's hypomania. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes its disorganized, sometimes it's irritibility but it's always light years from the severity of mixed states. Mixed states can also be murderous rage and uncontrollable violence, as my father used to get.
> My digestive tract is all out of whack.
**Yeah, mine too. It's getting better with the priobiotics. Finally being able to take a crap has become an event to celebrate.
> The two supplements that gave me that cause a bit of concern are: fish oil and L-Carnitine.
**Fish oil is good, especially for bipolars. Most pdocs agree with this, but you've got a good point about putting too many variables in at once. Same with L-Carnitine, even though it's good to normalize blood sugar. Probably good to do it but maybe wait until the Dep is stable?
> I've finally met someone more prolific than me Barbara! p.s. that metabolic doc told me only one glass of dopamine at a time (per day and no more than five per week)! that'll be an interesting challenge.
**I'm going cold turkey on that glass of dopamine (I'll never think of it by any other name again!), at least for a while. I got a book today written by a pdoc about what's going on from a neurological and emotional level around craving and addictions. I'll let you know if it's any good. I'm hoping to heal my burnt out lightbulbs in the brain and give it a break from all that sugar and booze. But oooo! wah!!! No fair!!!
- Barbara
>
> > **Yeah, depression is a totally inept word to call those two very differing states. I get both but the worst by far is the despair/crying and that's my mixed states state.
> >
> > > Also, the 5HTP helps with depression (or supposedly does) like an AD right? i shouldn't be on ADs anyway so I understand if it didn't help me at the time.
> >
> > **Well, the whole SSRI serotonin uptake theory is up for debate right now. No doubt they help with some kinds of depression but the mechanism as to how and why isn't looking like it's the uptake at the synaptic cleft theory that's the cause. So, yes, 5-HTP increases serotonin but low serotonin may not be the problem. The disconnect may be occurring further downline in the second messenger system. Detractors of SSRI's helping depression (not the fanatics, just those who say they're not very effective long term) make alot of sense, but I sure couldn't quote them at the moment. I only know they made me very very suicidally depressed.
> > >
> > > I'm trying to figure out what sort of state I've been experiencing the past week - mixed or depressed? It's important to know. Altho' i have no sexual partner, my sex drive is definitely not low. is this an indicator?
> >
> > **Dopamine definitely perks up the sex drive. Serotonin dampens it, SSRI's kill it. But beats me what that means about the spectrum. But using sex drive is an interesting idea to ponder. When I'm high on alcohol or pain killers which rev the dopamine, I want to screw like a bunny. If I'm mildly hypomanic, I also get rather randy. If I'm full blown manic, sex is the last thing on my mind because I'm in communion with God, the Universe and Everything and sex seems so ho-hum. If I'm apathetically anhedonic sex is also the last thing on my mind cause I feel ugly fat and soooo weary. I dunno. There do seem to be indicators. All this probably has nothing to do with any chemical as we currently know them anyway.
> >
> > All in all, I can usually tell where I am on the spectrum by my sleep. Depression, I sleep alot, all day if I could. I have enough presence to be totally cynical and disgusted with the human race. Mixed, I wail and pace and am tortured and wrung out and burnt out. I'm super sensitized to pain and doom everywhere, and even though I still don't particularly like most humans, I despair for us all. Mainly I despair for the animals, trees, non-human things. When I can bear to pick up a newspaper, comics are all I can stand, and even they make me weep with their sheer crudeness. I weep in stores. I worry incessantly. Very little sleep, even with way too many sleeping pills. Of couse, this is a definitely recognizable mixed state for me. There are gradients. But again, the sleep thing is usually the tipoff. Also, depression is more turned in, like 'my life sucks, nothing is working, nobody likes me, why is it this way, it will never be any different'. It's mostly about me and my life being horrible, there's rarely enough energy to dredge up the anguish that's the hallmark of mixed states for me. Mixed states is more existentially awful, the horror of existence, the insane God, shattering. When I think of me and my life during mixed states it's in utter despair and hopelessness which is claustrophonic, panicked and livid with pain instead of the sinking murk of a good old depression.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by katia on September 4, 2003, at 0:42:11
In reply to Re: A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2003, at 23:29:10
>>It's much more than severe depression because of the explosive wailing and gnashing of teeth aspect and the total out of control nightmare quality.
Well what I've experienced has been much more energetic than most "depressives" have experienced with their depression. In fact a friend of mine who let me stay in her place last summer when I got back from Scotland was frightened at the intensity of my energy and anger. and she even has had a life time of depression.
I feel out of control and lash out physically if there is a boyfriend in sight. I throw things out of utter anguish and could ruin the most precious painting or family hierloom and wouldn't have control over my actions. I feel like I am in a tornado of hell - lots of energy and it's tormenting and I'm just lashing out left and right exhausted, but wired - more than wired. I would hike for hours in the midst of this depression just to release energy after having had maybe 4-5 hours of sleep. I scratch myself, beat my head against the floor/wall, howl, and fight. I get completely out of control. and lose touch a bit with reality as I'm so encased in my own agony writhing on the floor clutching my stomach. Mixed state?
I've kicked out a window of my moving car and then opened the door and tried to jump out of it going 60mph just for spite to get away from my then boyfriend driving. THANK GOD, HE GRABBED ME! stuff like this; I could go on and on. I've heard that dysphoric mania is the same as mixed state.
I must say, my lettuce has never talked. That must be a scary place too.I think I'll abstain too. I just want to sort this med thing out. I felt rather good today.
we'll see if it rides out. I hate this unstability. You never know how you'll feel so you can't make that first date arrangement or the job interview, etc.
katia
Posted by Simcha on September 4, 2003, at 1:01:58
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks! » BarbaraCat, posted by KimberlyDi on September 2, 2003, at 17:24:51
OK, well, you have had a slip. You have not abandoned the path of recovery. That is what I hear. I hear that you are not in relapse for that would mean denial and you would not be here telling us about it.
I've done 12-step recovery for various addictions for eight years. I've had my slips. For me that has been part of the recovery process. It's progress and not perfection. Slips happen, it's a high statistical probability. The key, for me, is to learn from the slips so that I use less and less.
I have been clean and sober more in the past year and the quality of my recovery is greater still. Eight years has taught me much. One thing is that most of us have slips. The ones who admit it and keep coming back, make it in the long run.
Blessings,
Simcha
> When it comes to alcohol, success can lead to failure. Ironic, isn't it? 10 months sober and enjoying life, made tons of progress, and have everything under control... Hey, I *deserve* a drink. Sure, I had a problem in the past, but I'm *better* now. Over-confidence, thinking the road to recovery is now a speedy 4-lane highway, when in reality, it's a tightrope and always will be one. I think we all long to be normal again. I envy the social drinker.
>
> just my 10 cents worth on the subject
> KDi in Texas
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 4, 2003, at 17:08:14
In reply to talking lettuce » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 4, 2003, at 0:42:11
Katia,
Do your tornados correspond with alcohol imbibing? I do not ever get into rages, throwing things, etc., UNLESS I've been seriously drinking. It seems like my rage, which is usually justified but has not been healthfully released, feeds on itself and takes on it's own energy. Alcohol acts like gasoline on a simmering fire, usually towards my husband and prior to that to any man in my life who I felt triggered some deep hurt in me. I would get in touch with a hatred that I either didn't know was there to that intensity, or be able to contain it and work through it - but never completely if the insult was deep enough.I've said some horrible things to my husband. He can certainly get on my nerves in the best of times, but I do love him and normally would never willingly be so cruel. However, there have been times when he's been afraid for his safety. I am an avowed pacifist, a spiritual peaceworker. And I have gotten out of my mind with the urge to wreak havoc upon all living things. I've punched a hole through the wall, etc. But only when I've fanned the flames hot enough with alcohol. It's as though I no longer have conscious control, and sometimes no memory, of this inner insanely rageful furious harpy who I'm sure can take down a city block if she really got going. It really makes me wonder if that rageful demon always waits inside me ready to spring out when the walls are down, if I get invaded and overshadowed by the energy of hate when my protection is weak, who can say. I really don't know if it's my rage or someone or something else's.
My father, however, who never drank, would always turn into a demonic sadistic brutal maniac when his malady struck. His BP manifested in hypomanic swings of multiple projects started and not completed, but more so of a simmering irritability which turned to rage and violence during the extreme mixed states stage, following by intense remorse and black depression. Fun times growing up. His sister was the same way. Mine take on much more of a hallucinogenic (lettuce talk) anguish but that may have something to do with what my neurons learned from my many acid trips.
So, with that, what I've heard is that Depakote is probably the best mood stabilizer for this rageful type of mixed states, not that you're anything like my father was, but once again it's interesting how a subset of an illness has subsets of it's own, and on and on. If you're still enjoying your one glass of dopamine, it would be interesting to chart how you feel before and after and see if it incites any anger for you.
- Barbara
Posted by katia on September 4, 2003, at 21:31:19
In reply to Re: talking lettuce » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 4, 2003, at 17:08:14
Hey Barb,
Alcohol has a huge affect on the demon, but the demon has come out many many times without it. Like last summer, I wasn't drinking b/c I was pregnant and I was a maniac. but even prior to the pregnancy and w/o drinking involved I could get pretty hysterical and got into some pretty big fights with ex-d***face. The more I'm reading about Depakote, the more it sounds like it is for me over Li. They say that if you have mixed states and a load of other stuff I have, then Dep. is the better one to take. I realize it's all individual and we'll see if Dep.going to work for me. I took 750mg last night and slept well enough - still had to wake up with the alarm at 10. (even thru' the heavy footed house mate }-(!
I got really tired quickly today, but then I did a lot relatively speaking.
I'm trying to abstain altogether from that g of dopamine. maybe just when I work i'll have one after as the environment's hard to say no. And i only work two nights a week.
well gotta go for now.
Katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on September 5, 2003, at 12:04:37
In reply to Re: talking lettuce » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 4, 2003, at 17:08:14
I've had the same problem. My repressed anger runs free when I'm drinking. Strangely enough, I feel cleansed of anger afterwards, yet my husband pays the price. Then the cycle starts again.
KDi in Texas
> Katia,
> Do your tornados correspond with alcohol imbibing? I do not ever get into rages, throwing things, etc., UNLESS I've been seriously drinking. It seems like my rage, which is usually justified but has not been healthfully released, feeds on itself and takes on it's own energy. Alcohol acts like gasoline on a simmering fire, usually towards my husband and prior to that to any man in my life who I felt triggered some deep hurt in me. I would get in touch with a hatred that I either didn't know was there to that intensity, or be able to contain it and work through it - but never completely if the insult was deep enough.
>
> I've said some horrible things to my husband. He can certainly get on my nerves in the best of times, but I do love him and normally would never willingly be so cruel. However, there have been times when he's been afraid for his safety. I am an avowed pacifist, a spiritual peaceworker. And I have gotten out of my mind with the urge to wreak havoc upon all living things. I've punched a hole through the wall, etc. But only when I've fanned the flames hot enough with alcohol. It's as though I no longer have conscious control, and sometimes no memory, of this inner insanely rageful furious harpy who I'm sure can take down a city block if she really got going. It really makes me wonder if that rageful demon always waits inside me ready to spring out when the walls are down, if I get invaded and overshadowed by the energy of hate when my protection is weak, who can say. I really don't know if it's my rage or someone or something else's.
>
> My father, however, who never drank, would always turn into a demonic sadistic brutal maniac when his malady struck. His BP manifested in hypomanic swings of multiple projects started and not completed, but more so of a simmering irritability which turned to rage and violence during the extreme mixed states stage, following by intense remorse and black depression. Fun times growing up. His sister was the same way. Mine take on much more of a hallucinogenic (lettuce talk) anguish but that may have something to do with what my neurons learned from my many acid trips.
>
> So, with that, what I've heard is that Depakote is probably the best mood stabilizer for this rageful type of mixed states, not that you're anything like my father was, but once again it's interesting how a subset of an illness has subsets of it's own, and on and on. If you're still enjoying your one glass of dopamine, it would be interesting to chart how you feel before and after and see if it incites any anger for you.
> - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 5, 2003, at 14:03:26
In reply to Re: Sheesh! I leave for two days...., posted by fluffy on September 3, 2003, at 15:27:21
Hey Katy,
How are you doing on Li?
hope well.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 5, 2003, at 14:19:25
In reply to Re: Sheesh! I leave for two days.... » fluffy, posted by katia on September 5, 2003, at 14:03:26
Hey Katia--
Thanks for checking in on me. I was just re-reading some of Barb-cat's posts on Li. I had my first blood test yesterday. I don't know what the results are yet. I see my doc on Tuesday.
I'm actually feeling really, really sleepy the past couple of days. Part of me wonders if it is depression setting in, the other part wonders if it's the Li doing its thing, and perhaps it will pass. I've been clenching my teeth really hard the past couple of days--anxiety, I guess.
Aside from that--I'm feeling a bit sad b/c I think I need to break up with my boyfriend. It's a complicated case--50% of me thinks it's a great relationship, 50% thinks this is all wrong. *sigh* It sucks b/c I really care for him.
Anyway--I hope you are feeling better w/ Depakote. Sounds to me through your posts, that you are feeling better little by little.
Keep in touch, miss Katia,
Katy
Posted by katia on September 5, 2003, at 14:50:18
In reply to Re: Sheesh! I leave for two days...., posted by fluffy on September 5, 2003, at 14:19:25
Hi Miss katy to you,
I am feeling better, but easily exhausted too. It may be a side effect from Depakote 750mg. i take it all at night, but still can't fall asleep for an hour or two. My sleep isn't that great, even tho' I'm tired.
I see my pdoc today; so we'll see. I can't deal with this exhaustion and I am worried about the polycystic ovary thing. Even he wasn't that sure about the real stats on that. No one is at this point. And I would be absolutely devastated if I couldn't have kids one day esp. b/c of all I've been thru' in that dept. already.
I know how you feel about the what to do with current boyfriend dilemma. It could be a reaction to Li or you're mood in general?
I know that I've finally come out the other end of all those dysfunctional fits that felt so good on one level, but were not long lasting or very geniune (not saying that's yours) or communicative and honest and self-aware on both sides. I've done my time I tell you. I can only allow health in my life from now on.
be well,
Katia
p.s. I always use the word "miss" for dogs; like you do here. It's sweet.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 17:45:45
In reply to Re: talking lettuce, posted by KimberlyDi on September 5, 2003, at 12:04:37
> I've had the same problem. My repressed anger runs free when I'm drinking...
Sorry to intrude here, but I'd like to try redirecting this aspect of this thread to the new Psycho-Babble Substance Use board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20030903/msgs/257391.html
Bob
Posted by katia on September 5, 2003, at 18:58:38
In reply to Re: Sheesh! I leave for two days...., posted by fluffy on September 5, 2003, at 14:19:25
Hi,
Just wanted to say that I just had my session with the doc and because I'm worried about the polycystic thing, we're switching to Lamictal slowlllllly. and then reducing Depakote sllllowly and then finally adding Lithium much later.
He said he'd prefer to have me stay on the Depakote, but since I"m worried about it, it's best to change at this point. I hope I've made the right decision. It's more likely to get the polycytic ovary disease than the Lamictal rash; so what the hell. let's give it a go as I'm quite intrigued by you guys' responses!
feedback?
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 5, 2003, at 20:40:06
In reply to Lami/Lith combo, posted by katia on September 5, 2003, at 18:58:38
Katia,
I think you know my feelings on lithium/lamictal. It's been the best thing for me by far out of many many many med combos. I've never tried depakote. As you probably know, lamictal can cause agitation if used alone, or when starting out. The fact that you're on depakote should make that less of an issue, but if you start to feel a little activated and its uncomfortable, keep this in mind and ride it out. It usually subsides in 1 week but will probably kick up with each new increase. If you go slow it shouldn't be very noticeable at all. I kind of liked it because it felt sparkly and zippy, but like any good thing, too much of it wasn't a good thing.The chances of your getting the rash are about zip. It seems to hit only those predisposed to it and only when they ramp up too fast. Hopefully your pdoc won't push it past 12.5mg per week, but he sounds like he knows what he's doing. There have been some posters here whose idiot doctors were increasing lam by 50mg a week right from the start. No one got a rash, but they felt pretty awful. Stupid doctors, poor people.
I started getting a response at 25mg, probably the initial activation, then it subsided. Same thing again at 50mg where I stayed for a while cause every time I tried to raise it I got wired, but that was probably all that was going on in my life at the time and I was overboard with stress. Made it to 75mg when 50mg didn't seem to be cutting it anymore and stayed at 75mg for a good 6 months until the bad times around my Mom's death. I'm now at 125mg and that, with 600mg lithium is doing very well. I did try to raise it to 150mg and got real itchy inside and outside my bod so cut back and have been fine since.
Lithium can be slowing which is why I've opted to go with a subtherapeutic level. I don't get any reaction, side effect from lithium at all now, but had slight tremors and lotsa peeing and nausea for a short time in the beginning, but no big deal. Oh, one important thing that your pdoc will surely discuss with you is the necessity for regular thyroid tests. Lithium can interfere with thyroid hormone's action. But this seems to be true more so with those who already have hypothyroid problems (like me for the last 25 years). One piece of hard-won advice - your TSH levels should not go above 3.0 (higher values means lower thyroid hormone activity) no matter what your doc says. Many will say 'oh, as long as it's within range (.9 - 5.0) it's OK'. NOT TRUE! Even slightly above mid-range is considered borderline hypothyroid in many circles and will make you feel lethargic, depressed, cold, fat and miserable. Good luck. Hope it treats you well. - Barbara
> Hi,
> Just wanted to say that I just had my session with the doc and because I'm worried about the polycystic thing, we're switching to Lamictal slowlllllly. and then reducing Depakote sllllowly and then finally adding Lithium much later.
> He said he'd prefer to have me stay on the Depakote, but since I"m worried about it, it's best to change at this point. I hope I've made the right decision. It's more likely to get the polycytic ovary disease than the Lamictal rash; so what the hell. let's give it a go as I'm quite intrigued by you guys' responses!
> feedback?
> Katia
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 0:29:22
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 5, 2003, at 20:40:06
Hi Barbara,
Do you have a resource re: lithium is good for anti-aging in the brain/axons/dendrites? Wasn't it you who said this? The metabolic guy said that as well. I'd like to read more about this. Who told you?
It looks like maybe our conversation about the glass of dopamine spurred on a new group/substance abuse??? Barb, it's easy! if we ever get redirected, just follow it and we'll converse on different boards.
thanks.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 11:52:56
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 0:29:22
HI Katia,
Here's a good article:www.dbsalliance.org/Research/ResearchUpdate5.html
If you want to do more research, try searching on:
lithium+BDNF
(stands for Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor)or:
Husseini Manji
who is a doctor who is doing some very cutting edge research on BP and is probably the leader in the field right now. Most of what I've learned on mixed states is from his research.
Two other websites that are probably my favorites on depression/bipolar are:
www.mcmanweb.com
There are links at the top of the page that'll take you big-time into the subject.
Another is:
www.psycheducation.org
This one is a goldmine. There's alot of mixed states info in here, mostly based on Manji's research, but rephrased in easier to understand lingo. Each article has links to other articles. There's an interesting one on PCOS. Also, buried in in one of the article links is a very interesting study on 'dark therapy' as a therapy for rapid cycling. This is interesting because when I'm having a real bad time I'll pull the curtains and shut out the light. I've always thought this was unhealthy cause you need sun and I always thought it was a pathology of depression. But I always felt better after a few days of dark. Turns out it's a good thing and reduces agitated neurochemisty. Anyhow, I've spent hours exploring this site. Both sites keep up to date with new discoveries as well.
About glass(es) of D. Wow! After 5 days of abstaining I feel like a new woman. I kid you not. I'm sleeping without meds, waking up refreshed, feeling clearer, more energy, depression has improved termendously. I still get occasional feelings of doom and anxiety which is when I would turn to my glass(es), but now I've got the trust that it will pass and that alcohol will only make things worse in the long run. It's sooooo nice to wake up not feeling funky and headachey! I'm also not taking valium at all, but still keep it nearby as a security blanket. I'll also continue taking lithium (definitely for the BDNF boost) and lamictal, but feel that my improved brain chemistry will make them work better.
I'll check out the alcohol thread on Social. Thanks for the tip. Could you paste the web address link for one of the posts and I'll join in from there. - Barbara
> Do you have a resource re: lithium is good for anti-aging in the brain/axons/dendrites? Wasn't it you who said this? The metabolic guy said that as well. I'd like to read more about this. Who told you?
> It looks like maybe our conversation about the glass of dopamine spurred on a new group/substance abuse??? Barb, it's easy! if we ever get redirected, just follow it and we'll converse on different boards.
> thanks.
> katia
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.