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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 8:48:09
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do?, posted by Zyprexa on October 2, 2012, at 19:55:58
Thanks everyone for input.
i decided to take max (prescribed) meds last night.
plus i doubled olanzipine to 10mg.
slept most of evening, woke up had bowl of cereal and went back to bed. slept till 6:45 this morning.i'm feeling kinda apathetic with energy if you can understand that.
my urge to leave work is very strong. but i was fine an hour ago. ready to work. now i just want to leave.
**********************
i just filled out my time card for last two weeks and it looks like a checkerboard with the squirts of time i took off here and there.this Cant look good.
not sure where to go from here.
i'm gonna stay on 10. suprisingly this brand olanzapine doesnt seem to make me crave food at all??? but i have lots of anxiety too.
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 8:51:09
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do?, posted by phillipa on October 2, 2012, at 21:40:24
philipa is right. the only mood stabilizer (if its really that) is gabapentin. everything else i've tried had intolerable side effects or actually MADE me cycle.
and zyprexa has always ALWAYS helped me in the past. only difference is this time im on generics.
i better get some work done. only been here an hour and half but i'm ready to leave already...ugh. long day ahead. i hope i can last.
i think i'll tell myself that if i leave work i have to go to the hospital program.
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 9:56:02
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » Zyprexa, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 8:48:09
I'm glad that you made it through the night and that you made it to work. However, I really feel that you should see your doctor and work out a plan. I think he needs to see you face-to-face.
Would you lose your job were you to go inpatient for a few days or weeks?
You might need to change APs. However, before doing that, you might want to investigate using higher dosages of the generic olanzapine. It might be a matter of differences in absorption between the name brand Zyprexa and the generic olanzapine. I would consider going up to 15 - 20 mg/day. I had something similar happen with Lamictal and generic lamotrigine. I needed to take more of the generic in order to get the same antidepressant effect. The Mylan brand generic lamotrigine really sucked. I needed to raise the dosage from 200 mg/day to 500 mg/day, and the therapeutic effects were still inferior to Lamictal.
If the higher dosage of olanzapine make matters worse, I think you should discontinue it immediately.
If Zyprexa is not the right drug for you anymore, you can explore Seroquel, Safris, or Latuda. Some people like Geodon. I think it is an unpredictable drug, though. Geodon can either reduce anxiety or make it worse, depending on the person. For some people, Abilify reduces depression and anxiety at the same time. However, like Prozac, there is sometimes temporary startup side effects such as an increases in restlessness, anxiety, agitation, or insomnia. For me, these things disappeared within a week. As with other APs, if Abilify produces true akathisia, you might have to discontinue it.
I agree with others in that you have presented with a mental state and behaviors for which hospitalization would be well-advised. Sometimes, a stay of 2 - 3 days is sufficient. I am guessing that there are plenty of treatment strategies that you have not tried yet. They might want to place you on Risperdal.
I am sure that whatever you and your doctor agree on will work out for you.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 10:06:36
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do?, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 8:51:09
Have you tried Keppra or Zonegran?
What kind of side effects did you get from the mood stabilizers?
Eric
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 10:17:10
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » SLS, posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 23:40:39
The Zyprexa Chronicles: Marketing Zyprexa As The New Mood Stabilizer For Bipolar Disorder And Downplaying Diabetes And Weight Gain Concerns
This is an extremely lengthy post, one that requires use of the extended entry below, as well as numerous links to various Eli Lilly internal documents. Eli Lilly and the FDA were contacted repeatedly to answer questions. Neither replied.
Since mid-December, when the New York Times broke the news around accusations of alleged off-label marketing and alleged downplaying of risks associated with diabetes, weight gain and cardiac issues potentially connected with the use of Eli Lilly's Zyprexa, most of the resulting press attention, on and off-line, has focused on the drug's use in schizophrenia and dementia. In the latter condition, there have been accusations that Lilly marketed to drug off-label. The company has denied the accusations.
Little attention, however, has been focused on how Lilly targeted Zyprexa for use in bipolar disorder and how the company sought to change the medical treatment paradigm of patients with bipolar disorder by aggressively pushing doctors to use the drug, an antipsychotic, in mild cases of bipolar disorder, as opposed to cases of full-blown mania, and to use it as a long-term mood stabilizer along the lines of Lithium. This is not a minor matter. By some estimates, 50 percent of Zyprexa's $4.3 billion in sales comes from people taking the drug for bipolar disorder. The drug's use among these patients also potentially affects more patients, as bipolar disorder is estimated to affect from about six million to twelve million Americans. Schizophrenia is estimated to affect between two million to three million Americans.
As the company sought to turn Zyprexa into the "number one neuroscience drug in history," its strategy rested squarely in how much of the market for treating bipolar disorder it could carve off for Zyprexa. To do that, they cast Zyprexa as a long-term "mood stabilzer" far in advance of an FDA approval that would permit such language. Along the way, the company downplayed known risks associated with the drug.
CHASING BIPOLAR FROM THE START, WEIGHT GAIN CONCERNS
According to internal Lilly documents I have reviewed (and which I will link to throughout this post), the company aimed to go after this market more than a year in advance of Zyprexa's initial approval for schizophrenia in October 1996. In a document (3.9 MB) entitled (sic) "Zyprex--A Major Step Toward A Health Care solution For Psychosis" and dated July 20, 1995, "mania" is detailed as a new indication for the drug that the company planned to pursue in 1996 with "many" principle investigators at work on clinical research on the drug's use in mania (see page 43 of the lengthy document).
At the time, patients with bipolar disorder were commonly treated with a mood stabilizer such as Lithium, which had been approved for short and long-term maintenance use in the disorder since the 1970s. In some cases, an anti-depressant such as Lilly's Prozac would be added. Patients who experienced full-blown psychosis and were hospitalized were sometimes given an antipsychotic such as Mellaril, but only for short periods of time until the patient's condition stabilized. Some patients with mild symptoms of agitation, insomnia and racing thoughts might be given a small prescription of, say, Mellaril and be directed to take it for a few days only until their symptoms were properly knocked down. Mellaril is a "typical" or first-generation antipsychotic. Doctors were concerned that longer-term use of first-generation antipsychotics would lead to tardive dyskinesia and extrapyramidal symptoms and that such risks were not worth running when psychosis in bipolar mania tends to be short-lived and transient as compared with psychosis in schizophrenia.
Zyprexa was dogged by concerns of weight gain as far back as 1996 and Lilly's response, as it would be in later years, was to downplay concerns of weight gain. On October 1, 1996, Zyprexa was approved by the FDA for use in schizophrenia. The week before, it had been approved in Europe. Gary Tollefson, a Lilly official on its ironically-named "Heavyweight Team," conducted a conference call that day with several reporters to announce "the good news of the Zyprexa story." One reporter asked about initial reports of weight gain in some patients. Tollefson downplayed the concern, saying it was reported with all antipsychotics and that the patients were sometimes so underweight that the weight gain could be seen "in the majority of patients as being part of therapeutic recovery rather than an adverse event."
GOING AFTER LITHIUM, CHANGING THE PARADIGM
In a document (3.5 MB) from 1997, in which the company sought to "tee-up critical issues for the next 3-year planning cycle," company officials note that Lithium, an inexpensive generic product, was still the market leader in treating bipolar disorder. The company goes on to identify bipolar disorder as its number one goal for "disease state prioritization."
"Zyprexa will be the world's number one neuroscience drug in history," the document, authored by Tollefson, states in outlining the company's "strategic intent" for the drug. The company projected sales of $700 million for the drug in 1997, its first full year in the marketplace.
The company forecast that in the second half of 1998, Zyprexa would generate "'Depakote-like' uptake as a mood stabilizer," and already had a vision for its long-term use in treating bipolar disorder.
Both Lithium and Depakote were commonly referred to as mood stabilzers and were used in patients long-term. In Lithium's case, patients could well be on the medication for a lifetime (Depakote had only been used in bipolar disorder since the early-1990s.)
"To be a leader in the bipolar market, Zyprexa will need to be viewed as [a] true mood stabilizer (emphasis Lilly's). A true mood stabilizer will work in acute manic episodes without inducing depression, acute bipolar depression without inducing mania, and protect the patient from future episodes of mania or depression (emphasis mine)."
To "change the bipolar treatment paradigm" was seen as a major opportunity by the company, one that had "huge potential for (sic) increase in sales/value to Zyprexa and Lilly," according to the 1997 document. Weight gain was identified as one weakness of the drug, as was its cost relative to Lithium and Depakote. Zyprexa, at the time, cost on the order of ten times as much as a comparable dosage of Lithium.
As part of its bipolar marketing plans for Zyprexa, the company "planned/needed" bipolar disorder screening at the 1998 National Depression Screening Day, an activity sometimes carried out by the National Alliance for Mental Illness, as well as public relations programs aimed at journalists and grassroots media. In addition, the company hoped for an "Erasing the Stigma" partnership with the Rotary Club. The company planned to submit the drug for an acute mania indication with the FDA in 1998, according to the document. In 1999, the company hoped to have a celebrity spokesman on board.
"Zyprexa is a profound corporate opportunity," the document states. The company forecast as much as $1.1 billion in sales to bipolar disorder patients by the end of 2000.
"HIGH BLOOD SUGARS"
But in 1999, unsettling reports began to come in from clinicians. In a November 12, 1999letter (second part of letter here) from Albert Marrero, a staff psychiatrist with the Ventura County Behavioral Health Department, to Lilly's medical director, "high blood sugars" were cited as a problem.
"We have had eight patients out of possibly thirty-five patients on Zyprexa show up with high blood sugars," Marrero's letter states. "Two patients had to be hospitalized due to out of control diabetes....We have certainly never seen this with Haldol, Navane, Risperdal and others to this extent." It is not clear whether the patients were being treated for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
The drug was approved for short-term use in acute bipolar mania on March 17, 2000. Eli Lilly was prepared to change the paradigm.
THE ZYPREXA BIPOLAR LAUNCH
In March 2000, Lilly began a massive roll out of the drug for bipolar disorder. In a document from that month, the company detailed numerous marketing activities aimed at psychiatrists, according to the company document. A satellite symposium had been scheduled for February 23. Entitled "Clinical Management of the Bipolar Spectrum for the New Millennium," the program featured thought leaders in psychiatry such as Paul Keck, a psychiatrist at the University of Cincinnati School of Medicine, and was targeted at 6,000 doctors at 1,000 facilities and would also include 8,000 treatment team members such as nurses and social workers.
In addition, plans called for 15 bipolar dinner meetings, staged as continuing medical education events, and entitled "Restoring Balance: Long-Term Mood Stabilization in the Bipolar Patient." (Emphasis mine.) Anywhere from 150 to 400 psychiatrists were expected for each dinner. Lilly sales reps would attend as well, according to the document.
At the time, Zyprexa was not approved for long-term use.
It is not clear if such an event amounted to off-label marketing of Zyprexa for long-term maintenance use in bipolar disorder. Off-label marketing rules are murky and the FDA has not responded to repeated requests to clarify the matter. Neither has Eli Lilly. In general, companies can only market drugs to physicians for approved use. But doctors, paid by a company to speak for their product, have much more leeway to make broad statements about a drug's use, on or off-label, than do company sales reps, for example.
The company also planned to distribute a one-page "sell sheet" to 30,000 psychiatrists (that would be almost every psychiatrist in the US) and 95,000 pharmacists. In addition, Lilly planned to hold 30 regional "psychosis/bipolar weekend symposia" between April and November of 2000. Lilly also planned several other direct-to-physician initiatives between January and June 2000. The campaign aimed to "capitalize on reintegration, evolve private psych message to include depression data, neutralize weight gain." It consisted of a program called "dawn of a new era in treating schizophrenia and bipolar disorder."
The company had no indication for Zyprexa's use in depression.
In addition, Lilly planned to blast fax 30,000 psychiatrists every other month for three years with "schizophrenia, bipolar, elderly and health econ data," according to the document.
2001: BIPOLAR MAINTENANCE, LILLY DOWNPLAYS DOCTORS CONCERNS
In an "Integrated Product Plan" from January 18, 2001, it is clear that the company was pursuing indications for bipolar maintenance in the European Union and the US, according to a company document. In a separate document, the Zyprexa product team identifies "the Bipolar patient: mania, maintenance, depression" as one of its "2001 priorities."
Zyprexa was not approved for either depression or maintenance use in bipolar disorder at the time. It is not clear if the product team's priority for bipolar disorder translated into activities by Lilly's sales force in regard to long-term use of the drug. Lilly did not return repeated requests for comment.
But there was other troubling news afoot concerning perceptions about Zyprexa's side effects.
In April 2001 survey, 100 percent of psychiatrists surveyed believed that there was link between Zyprexa and diabetes and hyperglycemia. In this document, it is stated that the perception existed because some doctors were more selectively assessing their patients for diabetes and hyperglycemia if they are on Zyprexa, and, also, because more of their patients were on Zyprexa.
In a May 31, 2001 email, a company official reports on an FDA symposium called "Evaluating a Safety Signal in the Postmarketing Period: Hyperglycemia and the Atypical Antipsychotic Drugs." The symposium was led by Judith Racoosin, an FDA official. During a question and anser session, an audience member asked, "Where is the FDA headed with atypicals and diabetes?" according to the email.
"No decisions have been made" was Racoosin's reply.
A YEAR OF JAPANESE LABEL CHANGES
Lilly knew that a reckoning would soon be at hand for Zyprexa and concerns about hyperglycemia, weight gain and diabetes connected with its use. On January 30, 2002, the company's medical liaison in Texas emailed company officials to let them know of ongoing developments in that state's mental health system. Shelethea Dunning, the medical liaison, noted that Texas officials were hatching plans to have patients going onto Zyprexa go through baseline monitoring for glucose and weight, and to be continually monitored for changes. She explained that it was important for the company to do another presentation to researchers in charge of the state's so-called Texas Medical Algorithm Project, a highly-influential set of guidelines which was often used around the country as a tool for psychiatrists and other doctors in determining what medication to give to what patient. Dunning noted that TMAP researchers "are viewed as national leaders in mental health."
It is not clear what actions Lilly subsequently took. The company was soon faced with an even more serious challenge from abroad.
On April 15, 2002, Lilly learned that Japanese health officials would require a labeling change in that country. The label, according to a Lilly document, would instruct doctors not to use Zyprexa in patients with diabetes or in patients with a history of diabetes. The warning would also indicate that there was an increase in blood glucose for patients taking the drug. "Strongly disagrees" is what Lilly's assessment was of the Japanese decision.
"This does not change the status of Zyprexa as a safe, effective and cost effective agent in the US market," the internal document also states.
Lilly did not return a request for comment to clarify how the drug could be viewed as connected with diabetes in Japan but not in the US. The FDA did not return a request to clarify the same point and did not return a request to reveal what response the FDA undertook in light of the Japanese label change.
Within two months, Lilly showed just how much it disagreed with Japanese health officials.
"DONNA" AND LILLY'S MOVE INTO THE PCP MARKET
In June 2002, Lilly rolled out a new sales initiative for Zyprexa. The initiative was dubbed the "Zyprexa Limitless Team" and would create a primary care sales force targeting family practitioners, internists and other primary care physicians (PCPs) in an effort to sell them on using Zyprexa to treat patients in their practice who presented complaining of mixed mood symptoms such as agitation, insomnia and depression. The symptoms are considered hallmarks of bipolar disorder type 2 and cyclothymia, lighter forms of the disorder which stop far short of the psychoses and hospitalizations that are specific to bipolar disorder type 1 (or classic manic-depression).
The move into the PCP market was part of Lilly's long-held plan to reshape how bipolar disorder was treated. An estimated 50 percent of mental health care in America is delivered by PCPs, most commonly for depression. Typically, PCPs almost always refer patients with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, key markets for Zyprexa, to psychiatrists much as PCPs refer patients with heart problems to cardiologists.
"Just as Prozac revolutionized the treatment of depression in the late 80s and throughout the 90s, so too will Zyprexa forever change the way primary care physicians view and treat bp disorder," the company states in a resource guide for sales reps. The company estimated bipolar disorder's prevalence in the American population at 6 percent. At the time, the National Institute of Mental Health estimated that the prevalence was a bit over 1 percent.
"We can change their paradigm," the document states. To do so, the company turned to "Donna," a hypothetical patient. It's customary in pharmaceutical sales to talk with doctors about hypothetical patient profiles and for the salesperson to work to convince the doctor that their product is what the doctor should be using on patients who meet that profile.
Donna, "a single mom in her mid-30s," was not even close to being a classic manic-depressive. She came into her doctor's office "seeming somewhat ill at ease. Her chief complaint is, 'I feel so anxious and irritable lately.' Today, she says she's been sleeping more than usual," continues the sales guide, "and has trouble concentrating at work and at home."
In a separate document from the campaign, sales reps are instructed to present Donna in such a way as to "make sure the kind of patient we are talking about today, [is] not the psychotic patient or severely ill patient, but the complicated mood patient."
The answer to Donna's problem was to be treated with Zyprexa, starting at a 5 mg. daily dose, roughly equivalent to 3 mgs. of Risperdal. "If her symptoms persist after one week, it is important to increase the dose to 10 mg--and you can feel comfortable doing so with Zyprexa's safety profile."
In the Donna script, the only safety issues addressed are those of other drugs and how Zyprexa compares favorably. The document states that older antipsychotics cause extrapyramidal symptoms--a truism--and that Zyprexa doesn't. In addition, the document states that Risperdal caused heightened prolactin levels in patients, but that Zyprexa did not.
"You will be able to assure Donna that Zyprexa is safe and that it will help to relieve the symptoms she is struggling with," the sales script states.
Nowhere in this Donna script is hyperglycemia or potential risks of diabetes mentioned, despite the fact that such risks were well-known at the time. As mentioned above, only six weeks earlier, the Japanese government had found such risks worthy of a serious label change for the drug.
"I would like you to get a patient like Donna started today," the script continues. "I will be back in a week to follow up."
In an undated "hyperglycemia/diabetes sell sheet implementation" document, the company notes, "Our goal and focus is on creating a market with Donna. The competition wins if we are distracted into talking about diabetes."
Nowhere does this Donna script instruct sales reps to communicate with PCPs about weight gain concerns. But the concerns were so prevalent among psychiatrists that a report from Lilly focus groups in March 2002 reported that psychiatrists saw a "100 percent association" between Zyprexa and weight gain.
In an undated document from the PCP campaign, sales reps are instructed in how to handle "frequent areas of concern" that might be brought up by some doctors. Reps were instructed to handle questions of weight gain by pointing out that "Zyprexa may cause an increase in appetite that can lead to weight gain....You can suggest that patients drink diet soda instead of regular soda or cut back on the amount of carbohydrates they eat."
Sales reps, in the same document, were instructed to handle diabetes concerns by stating that rates were comparable among all atypical antipsychotics. Not everyone believed the claim, however.
On Setpember 5, 2002, Lilly recived a letter from James Turnbull, an official at Frontier Health in Kingsport, Tenn. He explained to Lilly that 10 percent of their patients taking Zyprexa see changes in glucose, trigylcerides and cholesterol, as he had pointed out to the company in an earlier letter. Turnbull was not pleased with the company's reply, which I have not seen. "It just confirms the theory that there are lies, damn lies and statistics," he wrote.
As I reported last week, in October 2002 a Lilly medical writer exchanged emails with several company officials trying to "hammer out" how the company would characterize glucose production that arose in recent clinical studies of Zyprexa in the long-term treatment of bipolar disorder. The company was preparing submissions to the FDA to have the drug approved for maintenance use in bipolar disorder.
"John [Saunders] is ok with this explanation BUT has reservations about including it, because it operates on the assumption that olz [shorthand for olanzapine, Zyprexa's generic name] automatically increases glucose," [medical writer] Campbell writes in the email. "This may be a true assumption, but do we want to present this this way? Does inclusion of this explanation open us up to questions on glucose that we'd rather not bring up?"
In 2001, Zyprexa sales were approximately $3.3 billion. For 2002, the company reported sales of $4 billion, a 21 percent increase over the previous year, according to IMS Health.
AVOID REFERRING TO ZYPREXA AS MOOD STABILIZER
Double-digit sales gains were met with consternation by Lilly. In a 2003 "Brand Council" document (5 MB), the company describes its frustrations. The document is marked "for strategy and evaluation purposes." It called for hitting $6 billion in sales by 2006.
"Zyprexa obtains 'foundation of treatment' in bipolar in the US," the document states, but "only vs. AP's," meaning only in comparison with other atypical antipsychotics but not against mood stabilizers such as Lithium and Depakote. The company felt "significant" sales gains were possible in a "short time."
Still, the document states that Lilly should "avoid referring to Zyprexa as a mood stabilizer." The company expected a new indication for bipolar maintenance in early 2004.
On January 14, 2004, the FDA approved Zyprexa for use in bipolar maintenance. The company's press release cast the approval thus:
"Zyprexa is the first treatment in nearly 30 years to be recognized by the FDA as a treatment for both acute mania and maintenance treatment in bipolar disorder."
The other treatment approved for maintenance use was Lithium
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 11:16:49
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 9:56:02
i tried to make appt with pdoc but she madeit for the 26th of october...gee could you get any further away?
i can call again today and see if i can get in sooner.i would not loose my job if i were to go in for even a few weeks.
i never thought of going higher in the generic. course last time with the teva brand i went up to 10 and got psychosis. so i need to be careful. i was fine first couple days (like today) no psychosis symptoms. but CRAZY anxiety, earlier apathy with energy, but now energy with energy. getting agitated. took gabapentin about 1/2 hour ago.
boss left for a few hours. give me time to myself.
-seroquel gave me severe cognitive blunting but i have never tried latuda or safris. Geodon, gave me psychosis. abilify gave severe anger and agitation to well, lets just say my T was a witness to it.
and risperdal did nothing. didnt help depression or agitation, i was on that for about only a month but pdoc said that was enough. i should have seen something.anyway.
i feel like a hopeless cause lately. my sypmtoms seem so all over the place, but i think its my mind more.
can you see more specific things in me? thats why i like to post true emotions. sometimes i can track myself that way.
anyway.
i'm just debating the money issue right now.
i want to give myself one more week. trying this different generic zyprexa and see what happens. and see if i can get into pdoc sooner.thanks Scott
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 11:56:47
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » Zyprexa, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 8:48:09
I think you should do 20 mg on the Olanzapine.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 12:27:09
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » SLS, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 11:16:49
>with the teva brand i went up to 10 and got psychosis
Can you describe your psychosis?
>CRAZY anxiety, earlier apathy with energy
I know you can't tolerate mood stabilizers, but one would go a long way to relieving your symptoms.
>Geodon, gave me psychosis
Can you describe this psychosis?
>but i think its my mind more.
How do you mean?
>can you see more specific things in me?
I see you're struggling to keep everything under control. You are not a hopeless cause.
Up the olanzapine to 20 mg, you'll get get better control of your mixed state.
Eric
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 12:46:47
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 12:27:09
>describe psychosis?
with TEVA zyprexa at 10 after 2 or three days i became raging paranoia, had to leave work cuz "everyone was staring at me, whispering things, they were going to tell the director of dept about my illness and i was sure she is going to do what she can to fire me." i was getting visual illusions about every 15min or so (very freq.) i was getting messages from whom i can only guess was the dead to give to others.
>Geodon psychosis?
i became enraged and started going to the 'seady' side of town looking for a gun. was having constant visuals of myself putting the metal gun in my mouth (was tasting the metal), and othertimes to my head feeling the pressure of the explosion. i was sure that others wanted me dead as well. very angry but lots of energy. other visuals like bugs and such. but the self-injury/death visuals were the worst.i'm feeling more stable right now for the time being. i took gabapentin about 10:30 so its about fully kicked in now. (i notice in 10 min lethargy but 2 hours before it seems to help mood).
but yesterday i did a full cycle in one day, anxiety in morning, agitation afternoon. by the time i got home it was all i could do to lay down and dream of death. i fell asleep about 6, woke up 8:30 help put kids to bed. had cereal and about 9 or 9:30 went to sleep again.if i go a full cycle again today i will call pdoc and speak with him.
and if upping zyprexa doesnt help i'll do hospital next week.im thinking logically right now so anyway, thats the plan as i see things now.
thanks Eric.
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 12:48:11
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 10:06:36
> Have you tried Keppra or Zonegran?
>
> What kind of side effects did you get from the mood stabilizers?
>
> Eric
i have tried neither. i've heard those names here but no where else...are they an herbal supplement? or Rx'd?
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 13:04:01
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 12:48:11
Keppra is an anticonvulsant that has been studied as a mood stabilizer. It has few side effects. A 3000 mg dose is usually good at stopping mania fast.
Zonegran is another anticonvulsant and it has a bunch of case studies studies showing it is effective at treating bipolar disorder.
I've used both-I really like Keppra.
Both drugs require a prescription.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 13:33:34
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do?, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 12:46:47
I'm inclined to think that the dose of your medication was not high enough and you started having psychotic features because of it. This explanation is simpler than trying to figure out how the medication made you psychotic when its designed to treat psychosis. I'm wondering what would have been if you raised the TEVA Zyprexa up to 20 mg.
Same goes for the Geodon.
>the self-injury/death visuals were the worst.
I get those all the time.
>I could do to lay down and dream of death
You're not suicidal are you?
Maybe you need a stronger antipsychotic. Has your doctor ever discussed Clozapine with you?
Could you tell me everything you're on?
Eric
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 13:51:26
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » SLS, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 10:17:10
Is this what you present as proof that Zyprexa is not a mood stabilizer, or is it proof that Zyprexa produces metabolic side effects and that Lilly is a ruthless capitalist corporation?
I can't read all of that. What I do see, though, is a piece of writing that appears to me to be more political than scientific. It is more concerned with Lilly than it is with the clinical value of Zyprexa to real people.
Does Zyprexa act as a mood stabilizer?
Do you agree with the following?
"A true mood stabilizer will work in acute manic episodes without inducing depression, acute bipolar depression without inducing mania, and protect the patient from future episodes of mania or depression."
If not, how would you define "mood stabilize"?
- Scott
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 14:07:28
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 13:33:34
i dont really know what happens chemically. i've always thought (somehow) zyprexa increases my dopmanine (i know its labeled antagonist) but maybe it allows for more inthe syntaptic cleft? thus getting me out of stupor. Zyprexa for almost 10 years has been my 'go to' drug when things got too tough for me and ALWAYS worked within 24/48 hours. ReALLY fast.
anyway i wasn't suicidal last night but my thoughts were of death in general. and i was so immobilized that i couldnt have acted if i wanted to.
no pdoc never mentioned CLozapine with me.
am currently on
Pristiq 100mg (am)
Adderall (20mg am, 10mg noon and 4pm-ish)
gabapentin (rx'd for 5xday, but then i was supposed to stop, and then he said no, dont stop...im a little confused so i'm using minimal. about 3x day.)
perphenazine added 2mg 2:00 (oops gotta take now) and 6mg pm. yesterday i took one extra. got urge to eat my pills (again not really suicidal just thoughts of death)
i'm fine now.
then xanax up to 2mg PRN, normally take 1mg in evening.
oh and zyprexa last night i started 10mg.
Posted by Beckett on October 3, 2012, at 14:38:02
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 14:07:28
B2C, have you factored in the increase in Pristiq this time as a possible reason why the zyprexa is not doing the trick in the same way? Could this be a factor?
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 14:53:13
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do?, posted by Beckett on October 3, 2012, at 14:38:02
yes. i even suggested that the up in pristiq is the cause of the up mood.
but the fact was i was getting bad before the 'uppage'. So he left it alone.hasn't mentioned anything about it since.
but about the zyprexa, the name brand worked, i just only had a few samples when i stopped taking name brand the symptoms came back.thanks.
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:14:27
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 14:07:28
Have you discontinued Lamictal?
Why are you still taking Pristiq if it is not preventing depression?
Did Pristiq work when you first started taking it? Does it continue to give you a partial response?
Did it make a difference to raise the dosage of Pristiq from 50 mg to 100 mg?
When you tried Wellbutrin, were you also taking Pristiq?
When you tried Wellbutrin, were you also taking Zyprexa?
Have you ever taken Effexor 300 mg/day?
I bet there are lots of things you haven't tried yet. You actually seem quite treatable. Just keep taking your Trileptal 600 mg/day. If you can induce mania, it should be easily controlled by using a mood stabilizer or an antimanic antipsychotic.
I think you are going to need an anticovulsant mood stabilizer (Trileptal 600 - 900 mg/day), an antimanic antipsychotic (Zyprexa 15 - 20 mg/day) and, if necessary, one or two antidepressants (Effexor 300 mg/day or Pristiq 200 mg/day; Wellbutrin 300 mg/day).
One can make the argument that treating you with only a combination of Trileptal and lithium makes sense. I guess it depends on where along the bipolar spectrum you are, and how much depression persists despite continued treament.
Try to keep things simple and have patience. This is not an easy thing to do. To tell you the truth, to avoid suicidaity and remain employable, it might make sense to continue with Zyprexa or switch to Abilify while continuing with Trileptal. As you can see, there are plenty of alternative treatments available. You have reason to be optimistic, despite the difficult time you are enduring right now.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 15:17:20
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 14:07:28
>i've always thought (somehow) zyprexa increases my dopmanine (i know its labeled antagonist) but maybe it allows for more in the syntaptic cleft?
Zyprexa downregulates dopamine and antagonizes 5ht receptors. It is not a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If there were something left in the synaptic cleft it would just stay there. It would not set off an action potential and the neuron would remain at rest. Usually anything residing in the synaptic cleft gets cleaned up by one enzyme or another.
>ALWAYS worked within 24/48 hours.
It still should, I just think you need a higher dose because you're not on a mood stabilizer.
>i was so immobilized that i couldnt have acted if i wanted to.
Good. If you ever are in crisis, just babblemail me.There is another problem. You're taking 100 mg of Pristiq , which may be destabilizing your mood. That's a maximum dose. Oi, mi ija! I became manic on 50 mg of Pristiq. I'm not going to tell you to change the dose or anything, just know it could be f*ck*ng you up.
Eric
usu
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 15:35:10
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:14:27
i dont think this was meant for me... is it?
b2c
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 15:38:21
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 15:17:20
> >i've always thought (somehow) zyprexa increases my dopmanine (i know its labeled antagonist) but maybe it allows for more in the syntaptic cleft?
>
> Zyprexa downregulates dopamine and antagonizes 5ht receptors. It is not a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If there were something left in the synaptic cleft it would just stay there. It would not set off an action potential and the neuron would remain at rest. Usually anything residing in the synaptic cleft gets cleaned up by one enzyme or another.Hey thanks. that helps to know.
> >ALWAYS worked within 24/48 hours.
>
> It still should, I just think you need a higher dose because you're not on a mood stabilizer.
>
> >i was so immobilized that i couldnt have acted if i wanted to.
>
> Good. If you ever are in crisis, just babblemail me.i just might. thanks.
> There is another problem. You're taking 100 mg of Pristiq , which may be destabilizing your mood. That's a maximum dose. Oi, mi ija! I became manic on 50 mg of Pristiq. I'm not going to tell you to change the dose or anything, just know it could be f*ck*ng you up.
>
> Erici'm sure it is messing things. but quite frankly i'd rather deal with this end then the crazy bad depression i get.
Gracias mi hermano> usu
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:46:14
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 15:17:20
> There is another problem. You're taking 100 mg of Pristiq , which may be destabilizing your mood.
That's very possible.
> That's a maximum dose.
I wish it weren't.
I think 100 mg/day is too low to set as a maximum dose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22883315
Also, the original clinical trials went up to 400 mg/day. It is in the best interests of the drug company to recommend the lowest dosage they think they can get away with so as to minimize side effects and make their product more marketable. It's a juggling act.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17917552
Pristiq 50 mg/day made you manic. Would 200 mg/day make you more manic? Perhaps this was an all-or-nothing phenomenon once you reached a threshold dose. If I were depressed and had not responded to Pristiq 100 mg/day, I would sure lobby a doctor to try 200 mg/day. I am all but sure that we will see higher dosages of Pristiq used once clinicians begin to push the envelope. Perhaps 300 mg/day of Pristiq will be used as commonly as is 300 mg/day of Effexor. Wyeth suggested a maximum dose of Effexor as 225 mg/day when it first came out. Now, Wyeth recommends 375 mg/day. Interesting, right?
- Scott
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 15:46:15
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » b2chica, posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:14:27
> Have you discontinued Lamictal?
i haven't been on lamictal
> Why are you still taking Pristiq if it is not preventing depression?
> Did Pristiq work when you first started taking it? Does it continue to give you a partial response?
the pristiq is working on depression...or it was/is..??unsure
pristiq has worked for an amazing 3 years (except normally once or so a year things go wacky and we have to augment)
> Did it make a difference to raise the dosage of Pristiq from 50 mg to 100 mg?yes made difference going up to 100, worked great. then too great.
> When you tried Wellbutrin, were you also taking Pristiq?
i tried wellbutrin back inthe day. it was the first AD to really work well for me. pooped out after about a year. then three years later tried again, both generics and name brand, didnt work.
no wasnt taking pristiq at same time> When you tried Wellbutrin, were you also taking Zyprexa?
yes off and on wellbutrin and zyprexa, mostly no though.
> Have you ever taken Effexor 300 mg/day?
effexor was HORRIBLE to me.
> I bet there are lots of things you haven't tried yet. You actually seem quite treatable. Just keep taking your Trileptal 600 mg/day. If you can induce mania, it should be easily controlled by using a mood stabilizer or an antimanic antipsychotic.
i'm confused with questions...are you sure your talking to me?
i'm not on Trileptal either. it almost gave me a stroke. got ataxia, nystagmus, and was 'locked in' for about 12 hours.
> I think you are going to need an anticovulsant mood stabilizer (Trileptal 600 - 900 mg/day), an antimanic antipsychotic (Zyprexa 15 - 20 mg/day) and, if necessary, one or two antidepressants (Effexor 300 mg/day or Pristiq 200 mg/day; Wellbutrin 300 mg/day).
>
> One can make the argument that treating you with only a combination of Trileptal and lithium makes sense. I guess it depends on where along the bipolar spectrum you are, and how much depression persists despite continued treament.
>
> Try to keep things simple and have patience. This is not an easy thing to do. To tell you the truth, to avoid suicidaity and remain employable, it might make sense to continue with Zyprexa or switch to Abilify while continuing with Trileptal. As you can see, there are plenty of alternative treatments available. You have reason to be optimistic, despite the difficult time you are enduring right now.
> - Scottif the pristiq hadn't worked i wanted to try your suggestion of desipramine from a few months ago. but the pristiq worked...then too well. now, wacky.
i listed my meds earlier but here:
pristiq 100
adderall 20, 10, 10
perphenazine 2mg, 6mg
gabapenting rx'd 5xday, only taking about 3 now
xanax rx'd 2mg, only take about 1mg pm for sleep
zyprexa starting yesterday 10mg pmi'm going to try to stablize out and change the gabapentin back to at least 3-4 times day (mid morning when anxiety hits, 1pm, 6pm and bedtime.
i'm going to lower xanax as that can cause me depression at times. (unless its really needed for anger etc.)
and keep zyprexa at 10 for 4 more days.IF that doesn't work i'll do outpatient hospital so they can sort things out.
right now i feel a little fuzzy (like i do when depression hits) but i have a lot of electric energy inside, some physical but mostly mentally. i'm trying to read some physics books to calm my mind. and also crocheting when i can, helps as its physical AND very repetative.
thanks ALways Scott!
b2c.
Posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 15:47:29
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:46:14
Very...
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 15:50:00
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » SLS, posted by b2chica on October 3, 2012, at 15:46:15
Oh, my.
I am indeed confusing you with someone else. It's like I made up a hybrid patient out of two different people.
I guess you can take 1/2 of the advice I gave.
But which 1/2?
LOL.
Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on October 3, 2012, at 16:15:57
In reply to Re: PS. what should i do? » phidippus, posted by SLS on October 3, 2012, at 13:51:26
>I can't read all of that
You should read it all. It's just damn interesting.
>Is this what you present as proof that Zyprexa is not a mood stabilizer
Hardly. Its just a revealing read.
>Lilly is a ruthless capitalist corporation?
You have to admit they can be *ssh*l*s.
>appears to me to be more political than scientific
Does it have to be scientific? If it is political, how does that denigrate the piece?
>the clinical value of Zyprexa to real people.
I incurred diabetes as a result of taking Zyprexa. Lilly ended up paying me a lot of money for their clinically valued drug.
Bottom line is Lilly bought its FDA approval for Zyprexa and its status as a mood stabilizer so they could make a few more people fat. The fatter we are, the more meat their is for the zombie horde Lilly is preparing for the end of days.
Ahem, I would call a mood stabilizer "any medication that controls severe mood swings". I wouldn't specify mania or depression.
Eric
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