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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tealady on September 9, 2003, at 17:14:12
In reply to Re: Maintaining the Effectiveness of Ritalin, posted by axc100 on September 7, 2003, at 9:32:38
Just a suggestion. When you do take the holiday You might try tyrosine..probably 500mg in morning when first get up and same around lunchtime...some take 500mg 3 times a day. It may help a little.
I have heard of a few people who have successfully taken their kids off ritalin and replaced it with tryosine and are better off or no worse off with concentration/behaviour at school etc. Others with young children have successfully tried tryosine instead of ritalin. Whether the kids were incorrectly diagnosed is debatable, and also in these cases thyroid problems were in the mothers.
Jan
Posted by EscherDementian on September 10, 2003, at 18:56:22
In reply to on ritalin holiday..suggest try tryosine? » axc100, posted by tealady on September 9, 2003, at 17:14:12
Might tryosine be helpful for Adderall 'holiday' as well(for adult)? Can you suggest a good source for information about this?
Thanx :)
Posted by tealady on September 11, 2003, at 7:45:29
In reply to Re: on ritalin holiday..suggest try tryosine? » tealady, posted by EscherDementian on September 10, 2003, at 18:56:22
> Might tryosine be helpful for Adderall 'holiday' as well(for adult)? Can you suggest a good source for information about this?
>
> Thanx :)
Sorry, I was trying to say that having anecdotal evidence from reading posts on forums ONLY , that some poeple have effectively replaced , or not started ritalin and use tyrosine instead with their children.
One poster has used this successfully for over two years..so it does work for some long term.
I have never heard of this being done with any adults.
tyrsoine is a precursor of dopamine, noradrenaline and , I think adrenaline , as well as thyroid hormones in our bodies.
With me, it definitely allows me to get over the "apathy" and depression and tackle little things. I took 2000mg today..so I don't feel like sleeping yet, but I got a few things done.
Yesterday I couldn't concentrate at all.
I'm not ADD or ADHD..but I feel this is something missing at present.
I'm really only begining to understand this.
The poster I was replying to, was needing to take a break from ritalin to maintain its effectiveness. I am not sure at all, but I just thought he may like to consider trying tyrosine as it might help with the break(seeing as he was stopping anyway)..however if it stimulates the same things that he needs the break from(doubtful), I guess that would defeat the purpose!
It was only meant as a suggestion, as something to perhaps consider, not advice in any way..especially as I have no documentation, studies or any proof.
I would think tyrosine would not be a good replacement of adderall, but if one was discontinuing for some reason, it may not hurt to try it?
Jan
I just googled on tyrosine and stimulant ..and came up with this post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020402/msgs/101636.html
looks like someone has thought of this before
If one was trying it as an adult male, one would probably need 1500mg on an empty stomach in the morning and 500mg at lunch to have some effect..I took that today, bit too much for me, but a reasonable day...not tired yet and 10.45PM!
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 11, 2003, at 20:56:53
In reply to Re: on ritalin holiday..suggest try tryosine? » EscherDementian, posted by tealady on September 11, 2003, at 7:45:29
According to "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" Phyllis and James Balch MD.
A book I find to be very well researched and up to date on alternative healing methods;
Its important to take an amino acid complex supplement if you are planning to take a single amino acid for longer than a month.If you are planning to do this indefinitely it really should be done under the supervision of a naturopath or at least give your body a break between sessions every 3 months or so.
Unfortunately I can't remember the reason!
And I don't have the book in front of me because
I just moved and its still packed somewhere :(
Posted by Zenclearer on September 11, 2003, at 21:12:43
In reply to Just some added information, posted by Gabbix2 on September 11, 2003, at 20:56:53
Tyrosine can raise your blood pressure, especially with stims.
I do find tyrosine helpful, but it makes my chest feel as though there's a brick on it, so I cannot take regularly.
Am I the only one with this problem with these stimulating aminos?
Posted by tealady on September 11, 2003, at 23:35:32
In reply to Be careful about BP, posted by Zenclearer on September 11, 2003, at 21:12:43
Zen thanks for that,
My blood pressure has increased and I was wondering if it was the tyrosine.
Before any meds..blood pressure about 90/60..too low (in 2001), pulse ..usually couldn't find but irregular and raced on exercise..like walking 20 steps <g>
After treatment (thyroid , increased salts, vitamins /minerals etc)..and weight gain...up to 120/80..pulse 88..strong and even , no more racing pulse
After adding in tyrosine ..more weight gain (which I was blaming on the T3 stimulating my appetite too much), yesterday blood pressure 135/88..pulse 91.I've stopped the T3 by itself..for some reason it causes a REALLY strong hunger in me, one that blocks all thought...Any thoughts anyone. It does usually cause an appetite increase for the first few days..but mine was very strong and never wore off, like I was missing something else I needed to go with the T3 to control the hunger pangs
Any thoughts as to why this occurs anyone?now I just need to find something to lose the weight, sigh...
Does tyrosine increase weight too?Jan
Posted by Kacy on September 13, 2003, at 13:53:02
In reply to Re: Be careful about BP » Zenclearer, posted by tealady on September 11, 2003, at 23:35:32
Tealady:
Somone posted here a couple months ago and said he used CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) for one month and lost ten pounds. He was certain it was the CLA that made the difference. I just searched for the post but can't figure out how to search for anything after June 27 of this year.
I haven't been able to lose weight since I began Effexor, so I've been open to trying anything healthy that might work. I didn't expect any results from something so simple as taking CLA, especially since I don't really know what it is. I was sort of a desperate skeptic at that point.
I keep thinking "It can't really be that pill." I wasn't going to post results until the effect lasted two months, but since you said you were looking for something…well, I'm an amazed skeptic, now…it's working.
I was going to take just one pill a day for one month and if that didn't work take two a day until I used up the bottle. I'll be sticking to one a day because after a few weeks, my weight began to move down. Four pounds in five weeks might not sound exciting, but after trying for two years and not budging, I'm happy. It took three weeks to lose a pound, then one week to lose a pound and then one more week to lose two. I've always been slow in losing weight, so others might do better.
I think the other poster was taking a lot more CLA than I have been. He or she said something about 'Tonalin' and CLA so I bought a bottle with that word on it. It's not the brand name but it looks like one. I take 1000 mg. (72% - 82%) on a empty stomach. It's a gel tab.
I think it's worth a try. If it keeps working, I'll be posting back again with a second month report.
Posted by tealady on September 13, 2003, at 18:46:14
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight » tealady, posted by Kacy on September 13, 2003, at 13:53:02
Kacy,
That's terrific news. Thanks.
I might give it a go.
You didn't get any increased acne?
Jan
Posted by Kacy on September 14, 2003, at 19:24:30
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight, posted by tealady on September 13, 2003, at 18:46:14
No. That was fish oil gel tabs.
The CLA hasn't caused any problems. It or something in my five pill, take-on-an-empty-stomach combo is energizing me. The effect is very Strattera-like. I know because I stopped getting a response to Strattera after my doctor made me start taking it at night. (Yeah…we beat the sedation effect all right.) The only help I get during the day comes about a half hour after I take the supplements and lasts an hour and a half or so. I don't know if it's CLA. I take it with E, DL-Phenylalanine, zinc, and a folic acid mix that includes B2,6,12, a tiny amt. of calcium and 100% RDA of C. I've only known about the energizing effect for about 10 days since I began taking Strattera at night. I don't know if that effect took a while to build up or what.
I was off a week in my last post. It only took two weeks to lose the first pound, not three. I missed counting the pills in my daily pill container when I checked to see how long I had been taking it. (Mind like a steel trap.)
Posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 6:45:02
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight » tealady, posted by Kacy on September 14, 2003, at 19:24:30
My guess is the dl-phenylanine. Only a guess. Tyrosine gives me a bit of energy. Only feel like sleeping half the day now, instead of 20 hours of the day.
If you really wanted to know I guess you could drop it for a week and see if you feel less energised? No way I'd do it if I had enough energy!
I was reading where females need to take CLA together with tyrosine and B6 (or the P5P form of B6 if over 40) to get the CLA to work in losing weight. So you're taking the lot as the dl-phenyl is covering for the tyrosine.
Jan
Posted by Kacy on September 15, 2003, at 14:43:29
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight » Kacy, posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 6:45:02
Thanks, again, for the knowledge. For once, I'm covered. I take it with a folic acid mix that has 25 mg B-6 Pyridoxine HCI–that's 1,250% of the rda–and with a zinc supplement that has 20 mg of the same B6–another 1000% of the rda.
I see nothing on those, however, that says P5P. I am over forty.
Did I see some post of yours recently about zinc in the picolinate form that was a bad form to take? After I finished my zinc/B6 mix, I was going to finish up a bottle of zinc as "zinc citrate, histidinate, picolinate, alpha-ketoglutarate, aspartate". Is there something wrong with that?
Posted by tealady on September 17, 2003, at 6:38:27
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight » tealady, posted by Kacy on September 15, 2003, at 14:43:29
> Thanks, again, for the knowledge. For once, I'm covered. I take it with a folic acid mix that has 25 mg B-6 Pyridoxine HCI–that's 1,250% of the rda–and with a zinc supplement that has 20 mg of the same B6–another 1000% of the rda.
sounds good..most folks don't need any more B6 than that. On a daily basis most women need 20mg to 50mg. Any more than 25mg used to give me migraines...but there again some folks can take 100mg
> I see nothing on those, however, that says P5P. I am over forty.Well I can't get P5P in Oz, I have one precious bottle from the US..I really do need more but it is exxy to bring in. Another "illegal" in Oz.
And I've been ringing around and can't get NADH either. still to ask a few alternative docs if perhaps they bring it into the country! Tried all chemit I can think of.
But the story is pyridoxal 5 phosphate(P5P form of B6) is the biologically active co factor ( post liver metabolized B6)..what you get after your liver has digested the B6 properly.
A large percentage of women over 40 don't have the stomach acid or something that allows one to properly absorb B6 and in general women lose the ability more as they age.
Taking an enteric coated form of p5P B6 separately by itself (as it is enteric coated..like you can't cut the tablet) allows the stomach and liver to be bypassed and hopefully one absorbs in the intestine! We only need about 20mg of this P5P form..unless there is a problem to correct when we may need 20mg P5P twice a day.
This form is used to with tyrosine hydroxylase ..something to do with adrenals. '
Wait I'll look for a link
"B6 or pyridoxine is essential for the metabolism of protein as it helps to convert glycogen into glucose which can be used by your muscles for energy. It's an important co-factor in the regulation of 26 aminotransferases, enzymes that regulate the proper pathways for our neuroendocrine system. If you are deficient in B6, you may form kidney stones when you eat sugars such as fructose or galactose. Women need higher doses of B6 than men because we lose more B6 in our urine. Women taking birth control pills to control menopausal excess bleeding can become depleted of B6, which results in disturbances in the metabolism of tryptophan. This can cause depression, anxiety, decreased sex drive and impaired glucose tolerance. B6 is important in lowering homocysteine levels in blood. Pyridoxal-5-phosphate, the liver metabolized form of B6, is the active component. However, if you have problems with gastric emptying, you may not be able to absorb B6 from standard vitamins unless it has been treated for absorption in the small intestine or duodenum."..from http://www.menopausediet.com/Store/products.htm
but you can buy it other places...if you do, make sure it is enteric coated as it has to bypass your liverB6 is the starting element. The ideal is a NORMAL STOMACH..which most of us women with problems don't have....and then liver enzymes break B6 into P5P, the ACTIVE form of B6. I've read women lose twice as much P5P as men but we don't make as much as men. So we tend to be a bit short.B
B6 is cheaper and better than taking nothing at all.
And too much B6 does lead to migraine s and can be toxic.
Some folks take a combo of P5P and straight B6...I guess to reduce cost and "cover" themselves?
> Did I see some post of yours recently about zinc in the picolinate form that was a bad form to take? After I finished my zinc/B6 mix, I was going to finish up a bottle of zinc as "zinc citrate, histidinate, picolinate, alpha-ketoglutarate, aspartate". Is there something wrong with that?
>Yes I was asking Lar about the picolinate form..see
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/257782.html
or in that threadI tried some zinc picolinate and it did seem to give me a much stronger zinc effect..so I'm not too sure on the chelation, and lots of folks swear by it..but I would definitely myself NOT take it routinely..only occasionally, and I don't think I'll buy another bottle when this one runs out.
I really don't know enough to comment , but I would guess it would be OK as you are only getting a little bit as it is in lots of forms..how much of each are you getting? Perhaps when it runs out you could look around for a different type? The B6 with zinc is good..if you do end up with too much B6 and get headaches, you know what to suspect.Jan
Posted by tealady on September 17, 2003, at 7:32:58
In reply to Re: Something to lose weight » Kacy, posted by tealady on September 17, 2003, at 6:38:27
Just to confuse the whole B6 thing..
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/index.html
says you need a form called PLP of B6??not the P5P form?
Maybe this is why some people take P5P AND B6??Anyone?
Jan
Posted by DSCH on September 17, 2003, at 10:43:01
In reply to PLP P5P B6?? Kacy anyone?, posted by tealady on September 17, 2003, at 7:32:58
> Just to confuse the whole B6 thing..
> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/index.html
> says you need a form called PLP of B6??not the P5P form?
> Maybe this is why some people take P5P AND B6??
>
> Anyone?
> JanIIRC, P5P = PLP. Two different ways of refering to the same thing, the activated coenzyme form of B6.
Posted by Kacy on September 17, 2003, at 11:24:29
In reply to Re: PLP P5P B6?? Kacy anyone?, posted by DSCH on September 17, 2003, at 10:43:01
Thanks for the information. I'll look for PLP or P5P on supplements after I finish what I have. If I don't see it, I guess the large amount I'm taking ought to give me enough to make that.
About the zinc, I am just realizing those are different forms of zinc. I'll use my bottle up by alternating days with my other form. I'll get less b6, though because my other zinc is a zinc/b6 combo. It should be enough, though
If I find PLP, I'll let you know. Maybe, if Mother Nature doesn't give over-40 women as a group that ability, it's because we don't need as much as men and younger women.
Posted by DSCH on September 17, 2003, at 13:06:27
In reply to Re: PLP P5P B6?? Kacy anyone?, posted by Kacy on September 17, 2003, at 11:24:29
More info...
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_9.htmlB6 you'll often see listed as pyridoxine HCl (hydrochloride).
PLP/P5P is pyridoxal phosphate.
Posted by shar on October 1, 2003, at 0:21:36
In reply to Re: PLP P5P B6??, posted by DSCH on September 17, 2003, at 13:06:27
I went to a homeopathic doc and he said I did not process B6 like most, and needed P5P. It is a coenzyme form of B6, which (in my lay understanding means if you took B6 and the body processed it 'properly' is what you'd get at the NEXT step) makes it available to me.
It is more expensive than B6. He also used crystals to determine this....but, who am I to judge? When I can afford it, I do always get P5P.
Shar
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