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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 21:37:57
It ain't as effective for me as magnesuim oxide__
I'm taking a lot of vitamins...probably too much.
Which ones are toxic/bad in large amounts?
Are any of B vitamins?I should search the net but i'm in sloth mode and tired.
Posted by sb417 on November 23, 2003, at 22:05:29
In reply to Magnesium citrate .., posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 21:37:57
Hi Slinky. I know that vitamin B6 should not be taken in large doses, but I'll have to check on exactly what is considered a large dose.
As for magnesium, I'd been taking a combined Calcium and Magnesium Citrate pill for a long time. Recently I switched to Magnesium glycinate, which I read was absorbed better. I have to say that I prefer the citrate.
Posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 22:27:08
In reply to Re: Magnesium citrate .. » slinky, posted by sb417 on November 23, 2003, at 22:05:29
Hi...
I had a surf and found this about b6:
http://www.foresight-preconception.org.uk/summaries/frames/B6-nf.html
Posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 22:32:57
In reply to Re: Magnesium citrate .. » sb417, posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 22:27:08
.well , I said I was tired.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 24, 2003, at 8:33:53
In reply to Magnesium citrate .., posted by slinky on November 23, 2003, at 21:37:57
> It ain't as effective for me as magnesuim oxide__
Everybody's different. It's usually the other way around (unless there is a confusion in the amount of elemental magnesium contained in doses of each product).
> I'm taking a lot of vitamins...probably too much.
It's hard to do that.
> Which ones are toxic/bad in large amounts?
Generally, the fat solubles. Vitamin A and D are common culprits. That's why cod liver oil is not the best source of omega-3 fatty acids....too much A and D.
> Are any of B vitamins?
Yes, but...
Here's an example of what happens when you behave like an idiot. Gram quantities, for years? Give me a break.
Funct Neurol. 1993 Nov-Dec;8(6):429-32.
Sensory and motor neuropathy caused by excessive ingestion of vitamin B6: a case report.
Morra M, Philipszoon HD, D'Andrea G, Cananzi AR, L'Erario R, Milone FF.
Department of Neurology, San Bortolo Hospital U.L.SS. n. 8, Vicenza, Italy.
We describe a patient who developed a severe sensory and a mild motor neuropathy. This syndrome was due to massive and prolonged ingestion of vitamin B6 (10 g daily for 5 years). To our knowledge this is the first published case of motor neuropathy caused by chronic abuse of vitamin B6.
Vitamin B6 neuropathy is reversible. All you do is stop taking B6 if it develops. There are reports of B6 neuropathy at much lower doses than the above case (in the 100 mg-200 mg/day range, but again, over extended periods of time), but that is rare, and there are many other factors which mitigate the risk. One simple factor is to never just take B6. Combine it with other B's, and the risk is virtually zero. That's one of the reasons why they sell B's in a blend, as B-complex.
B-vitamins, with the exception of B-12, are not stored in the body. They are rather quickly eliminated by the kidneys. It takes prolonged and outrageous overdose of B-vitamins for harm to develop.
> I should search the net but i'm in sloth mode and tired.
Rather than the net, you can search Lar. My pleasure.
Hypervitaminosis, the medical term for toxicity from vitamin overdose, is really a rare thing. Despite that, it receives massive publicity, almost propaganda, from standard medical types. These are the same people who tell you that you get all your nutritional needs met with normal diet. That is false, by the way. Vitamins as a *treatment* would fall under an exception to that definition, in any case.
Lar
Posted by slinky on November 24, 2003, at 10:30:57
In reply to Re: Magnesium citrate .. » slinky, posted by Larry Hoover on November 24, 2003, at 8:33:53
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 22:41:14
In reply to Re: Magnesium citrate .. » slinky, posted by Larry Hoover on November 24, 2003, at 8:33:53
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:49:57
In reply to If B12 is stored, why the mega-dosing? (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 22:41:14
Mega-dosing wouldn't be a permanent strategy, but is instead intended to saturate the various tissues requiring the cobalamin complex.
B-12 shouldn't be called a B vitamin at all. It's a historical error, but retained by convenience, to avoid compounding the confusion. Chemists are a confused lot. ;-)
B-12 is a cobalt ion already bound to a porphyrin complex, something like iron in hemoglobin. It's a big molecule, and it requires a very special process to be brought across the membranes of the intestine (active transport). It was believed that if the active transport process was flawed (pernicious anemia is the result), that the only way around that was injection.
Like many "well known facts", the assumption that B-12 uptake requires active transport is wrong. A small percentage simply diffuses across the intestinal membranes.....maybe 1-3% of the total dose.
So, if you're taking 1 mg of oral B-12, and your active transport uptake is not working (acid reduction therapy for stomach complaints blocks this process), then passive diffusion would supply something like 10-30 micrograms of B-12.
Sublingual tablets are designed to dissolve in the mouth, permitting diffusion across oral membranes. Any that is swallowed gets a second chance in the gut.
If you were severely depleted in B-12 (if symptoms are evident, you are severely depleted), it takes months to get the levels back up.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:40:26
In reply to Re: If B12 is stored, why the mega-dosing? » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:49:57
Thanks, Lar. Clear and to the point as usual. (You are no more long-winded than you should be). ;-)
> If you were severely depleted in B-12 (if symptoms are evident, you are severely depleted), it takes months to get the levels back up.
Are there any highly distinctive or tell-tale symptoms of B12 deficency? Malaise/fatigue/depression of course is altogether too widespread. ;-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:46:38
In reply to Re: If B12 is stored, why the mega-dosing? » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:40:26
> Thanks, Lar. Clear and to the point as usual. (You are no more long-winded than you should be). ;-)
I do try to be thorough *and* succinct.
> > If you were severely depleted in B-12 (if symptoms are evident, you are severely depleted), it takes months to get the levels back up.
>
> Are there any highly distinctive or tell-tale symptoms of B12 deficency? Malaise/fatigue/depression of course is altogether too widespread. ;-)Well, yes, that is part of the problem. Why fatigue? Why malaise? Why depression? Those are non-specific symptoms.
The clue is in the clustering of symptoms...the continuum would extend to extreme cases, as defined by the diagnostic category, pernicious anemia:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000569.htm#Symptoms
Add a healthy modicum of intuition, and voila!
In my own case, I had recurrent parasthesia for years. I had gum problems. I had impaired smell. I had wheezing. I had fatigue. And I was on Prilosec for GERD. Given the dependency of B12 uptake on stomach pH below 3.0, and the effect of the proton-pump inhibitor, I put 2 and 2 together and got 11-teen. ;-)
In any case, a trial treatment is nothing more than that.
BTW, what I have discovered is that my GERD may have been *caused* by pre-existing B12 deficiency in the first place. The connection is complex....and it is my hypothesis, not one from another source....but I have stopped needing treatments for GERD altogether, despite two decades of major symptoms.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 14:40:33
In reply to Re: If B12 is stored, why the mega-dosing? » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:46:38
> In my own case, I had recurrent parasthesia for years. I had gum problems. I had impaired smell. I had wheezing. I had fatigue. And I was on Prilosec for GERD. Given the dependency of B12 uptake on stomach pH below 3.0, and the effect of the proton-pump inhibitor, I put 2 and 2 together and got 11-teen. ;-)
"Why don't you just make ten louder?"
"But this one goes to eleven!"> In any case, a trial treatment is nothing more than that.
>
> BTW, what I have discovered is that my GERD may have been *caused* by pre-existing B12 deficiency in the first place. The connection is complex....and it is my hypothesis, not one from another source....Gotta love these downward spirals in complex systems, eh?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2003, at 7:47:42
In reply to Re: If B12 is stored, why the mega-dosing? » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 14:40:33
> > In my own case, I had recurrent parasthesia for years. I had gum problems. I had impaired smell. I had wheezing. I had fatigue. And I was on Prilosec for GERD. Given the dependency of B12 uptake on stomach pH below 3.0, and the effect of the proton-pump inhibitor, I put 2 and 2 together and got 11-teen. ;-)
>
> "Why don't you just make ten louder?"
> "But this one goes to eleven!"What, ten-teen?
I be weird sometimes, as is my wont.
> > In any case, a trial treatment is nothing more than that.
> >
> > BTW, what I have discovered is that my GERD may have been *caused* by pre-existing B12 deficiency in the first place. The connection is complex....and it is my hypothesis, not one from another source....
>
> Gotta love these downward spirals in complex systems, eh?Well, it does indict allopathic medical treatment, too. The presenting symptom (e.g. acid reflux) can be masked, or the cycle can be broken. I don't know if Western medicine simply doesn't know better, or it doesn't care better.
I prefer system intervention over reductionism. It just makes more sense to me.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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