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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by KaraS on November 20, 2004, at 16:21:40
Any opinions on this form of calcium or this brand (Nutraceutical Sciences Institute)?
NSI Calcium Citrate Malate
"Description
Studies suggest that calcium citrate malate is the most bioavailable form of calcium. It is even more easily absorbed than the calcium obtained from dairy sources. This makes it a good choice for a growing number of people who cannot tolerate lactose or protein in dairy products."
Posted by jujube on November 20, 2004, at 17:30:25
In reply to Calcium Citrate Malate, posted by KaraS on November 20, 2004, at 16:21:40
I'm not sure about calcium citrate malate, but what I have read about calcium citrate is that it is quite absorbable and maybe a particularly good choice for the eldery since elderly persons often have low levels of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs and calcium citrate requires little hydrochloric acid for absorption.
What I also have read is that of all the forms of calcium, calcium carbonate contains the greatest amount of elemental calcium (40 percent).
Tamara
> Any opinions on this form of calcium or this brand (Nutraceutical Sciences Institute)?
>
>
> NSI Calcium Citrate Malate
>
>
> "Description
> Studies suggest that calcium citrate malate is the most bioavailable form of calcium. It is even more easily absorbed than the calcium obtained from dairy sources. This makes it a good choice for a growing number of people who cannot tolerate lactose or protein in dairy products."
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by KaraS on November 21, 2004, at 0:56:06
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate » KaraS, posted by jujube on November 20, 2004, at 17:30:25
I've also read that the carbonate form doesn't get absorbed as well. I was just wondering if there were any special reason for combining citrate with malate as this brand below seems to suggest. I doubt it but I'm having a hard time finding calcium in a capsule that is in citrate form and isn't really expensive. I came across this particular brand but hadn't heard of it before. I think I'll probably just order calcium citrate powder. I haven't wanted to deal with the uncapsuled powder but it's probably the wisest way to go here.
Thanks for your help.
K> I'm not sure about calcium citrate malate, but what I have read about calcium citrate is that it is quite absorbable and maybe a particularly good choice for the eldery since elderly persons often have low levels of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs and calcium citrate requires little hydrochloric acid for absorption.
>
> What I also have read is that of all the forms of calcium, calcium carbonate contains the greatest amount of elemental calcium (40 percent).
>
> Tamara
>
> > Any opinions on this form of calcium or this brand (Nutraceutical Sciences Institute)?
> >
> >
> > NSI Calcium Citrate Malate
> >
> >
> > "Description
> > Studies suggest that calcium citrate malate is the most bioavailable form of calcium. It is even more easily absorbed than the calcium obtained from dairy sources. This makes it a good choice for a growing number of people who cannot tolerate lactose or protein in dairy products."
> >
Posted by tealady on November 21, 2004, at 5:37:11
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate » jujube, posted by KaraS on November 21, 2004, at 0:56:06
> I've also read that the carbonate form doesn't get absorbed as well.
I think that's due to maybe cutting down on the acidity of the gut. Not sure on any of this.
So if you take to much you reduce your gut acidity ..and don't break down any food as well that's in there at the time...of course I guess if you took it with some acidic food ?
TUMS is caclium carbonate..used for reducing stomach acidity?...so its fine if you have a problem with too much stomach acid etc...then its a great way to go <g>
I was just wondering if there were any special reason for combining citrate with malate as this brand below seems to suggest.maybe..if you try and figure out the fatty acid cycle..if uses citrate as a signal..and moves citrate and malate forms in and out mitochondria. I had a look at this today..and got totally lost...but I think that's the reasoning behind it.
The textbook on biochemistry(1986.so don't know how uptodate) says
acetyl groups formed in the mitochondria by the oxidation of pyruvate need to be transferred to the cytosol for fatty acid synthesis. This is done by citrate formed in the mitochondria.
citratyeis then cleaved in the cytosolsupplying acetyl groups for the fatty acid chain and also providing oxoloacetate for driving electron transfr via malate.
In this scheme, citrate is formed from oxaloacetate and acetyl coenzyme A by the citartae synthase reaction of the citric acid cycle in mitochondria. Instead of being oxidised, it is transported to the cytosol. Cleaved to form acetyl coenzymeA and oxaloacetate in the cytosol by a separate enzyme, cleavage occurs at the expense of ATP.Now comes a clever part. The acetyl coA released in the cytosol by the cleavage of citrate is used to create fatty acid chains.
The oxaloacetate that is also released is used by malate dehydrogenase for transfer of electrons from NADH to NADPH and is converted to pyruvate and CO2 as a result. (or it also says.. the oxaloacetate released from citrate in the cytosol is reduced to malate by NADH , and the malate is oxidatively decarboxylated to form NADPH, pyruvate, and CO2.
the NADPH s used in forming fatty acids.)
now the trciky bit a far as I can see is <g>Regulation of AcetylCoA/Palmitate cycle
AcetylCoa carboxylase catayzes the first committed step in fatty acid synthesis, and regulation of this enyzme controls all remaining steps.(It is inactivated through pshosporylatiobn by hormone-responsive protein kinases (see how hormones get in it?<g>) and activated thru dephosphorylation by insyulin reponsive protein phosphatase..and insulin.)
IN ADDITION, THE ENZYME HAS AN ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT for CITRATE. not only is citrate the SOURCE of ACETYL CoA in the cytosol, IT ALSO SIGNALS the availability of ample supplies of OXALOACETATE, and therefore pyruvate (If acetyl CoA were the signal, the carboxylase would be turned onwhen the liver isalready floodd with fatty acids and rapidlu oxidising them) Acetyl CoA is inhibited by malonyl synthase. and aslo inhibited by palmitoyl CoA so as to prevent the synthesis of fatty acids faster than they can be incorporated into triglycerides."
Mc Gilvery Boichemistry A fuctional approachSo in my words...not sure if just taking citrate has provide worng signalling...not sure if taking malate as well would help balance or mke it worse either..is it as clear as mud to you too?
Anyway..that's where the idea comes from for sure <grin>..that's what ya wanted to know , right?
-----------------of I doubt it but I'm having a hard time finding calcium in a capsule that is in citrate form and isn't really expensive. I came across this particular brand but hadn't heard of it before. I think I'll probably just order calcium citrate powder. I haven't wanted to deal with the uncapsuled powder but it's probably the wisest way to go here.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> K
>
> > I'm not sure about calcium citrate malate, but what I have read about calcium citrate is that it is quite absorbable and maybe a particularly good choice for the eldery since elderly persons often have low levels of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs and calcium citrate requires little hydrochloric acid for absorption.Then on p733 it talks aboout Male sex pheromone.
diect quote" Early French romantic literature reports that a man can become irresistable to women if he wears a handkerchief with which he has proeviously rubbed his armpits while fully aroused. ghis belief may accout for the old feature of male attire - the exposed breast pocket handkerchief"
OK, Its true, its there..I had to lighten it a little..it goes on th=o dexcribe priapol..that's what is transported thru the blood and secreted in the armpits.."the alcohol has a musky odour"..then it goes on to talk about swine and concupiscent boars <grin>
> > > "Description
> > > Studies suggest that calcium citrate malate is the most bioavailable form of calcium. It is even more easily absorbed than the calcium obtained from dairy sources. This makes it a good choice for a growing number of people who cannot tolerate lactose or protein in dairy products."
> > >Jan
Posted by KaraS on November 21, 2004, at 14:00:32
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate..any biochemists??? » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 21, 2004, at 5:37:11
> > I've also read that the carbonate form doesn't get absorbed as well.
>
> I think that's due to maybe cutting down on the acidity of the gut. Not sure on any of this.
> So if you take to much you reduce your gut acidity ..and don't break down any food as well that's in there at the time...of course I guess if you took it with some acidic food ?
> TUMS is caclium carbonate..used for reducing stomach acidity?...so its fine if you have a problem with too much stomach acid etc...then its a great way to go <g>
>
>
>
>
> I was just wondering if there were any special reason for combining citrate with malate as this brand below seems to suggest.
>
>
>
> maybe..if you try and figure out the fatty acid cycle..if uses citrate as a signal..and moves citrate and malate forms in and out mitochondria. I had a look at this today..and got totally lost...but I think that's the reasoning behind it.
>
> The textbook on biochemistry(1986.so don't know how uptodate) says
> acetyl groups formed in the mitochondria by the oxidation of pyruvate need to be transferred to the cytosol for fatty acid synthesis. This is done by citrate formed in the mitochondria.
> citratyeis then cleaved in the cytosolsupplying acetyl groups for the fatty acid chain and also providing oxoloacetate for driving electron transfr via malate.
> In this scheme, citrate is formed from oxaloacetate and acetyl coenzyme A by the citartae synthase reaction of the citric acid cycle in mitochondria. Instead of being oxidised, it is transported to the cytosol. Cleaved to form acetyl coenzymeA and oxaloacetate in the cytosol by a separate enzyme, cleavage occurs at the expense of ATP.
>
> Now comes a clever part. The acetyl coA released in the cytosol by the cleavage of citrate is used to create fatty acid chains.
> The oxaloacetate that is also released is used by malate dehydrogenase for transfer of electrons from NADH to NADPH and is converted to pyruvate and CO2 as a result. (or it also says.. the oxaloacetate released from citrate in the cytosol is reduced to malate by NADH , and the malate is oxidatively decarboxylated to form NADPH, pyruvate, and CO2.
> the NADPH s used in forming fatty acids.)
>
>
> now the trciky bit a far as I can see is <g>
>
> Regulation of AcetylCoA/Palmitate cycle
> AcetylCoa carboxylase catayzes the first committed step in fatty acid synthesis, and regulation of this enyzme controls all remaining steps.
>
> (It is inactivated through pshosporylatiobn by hormone-responsive protein kinases (see how hormones get in it?<g>) and activated thru dephosphorylation by insyulin reponsive protein phosphatase..and insulin.)
>
> IN ADDITION, THE ENZYME HAS AN ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT for CITRATE. not only is citrate the SOURCE of ACETYL CoA in the cytosol, IT ALSO SIGNALS the availability of ample supplies of OXALOACETATE, and therefore pyruvate (If acetyl CoA were the signal, the carboxylase would be turned onwhen the liver isalready floodd with fatty acids and rapidlu oxidising them) Acetyl CoA is inhibited by malonyl synthase. and aslo inhibited by palmitoyl CoA so as to prevent the synthesis of fatty acids faster than they can be incorporated into triglycerides."
> Mc Gilvery Boichemistry A fuctional approach
>
> So in my words...not sure if just taking citrate has provide worng signalling...not sure if taking malate as well would help balance or mke it worse either..is it as clear as mud to you too?
> Anyway..that's where the idea comes from for sure <grin>..that's what ya wanted to know , right?
> -----------------
>
> of I doubt it but I'm having a hard time finding calcium in a capsule that is in citrate form and isn't really expensive. I came across this particular brand but hadn't heard of it before. I think I'll probably just order calcium citrate powder. I haven't wanted to deal with the uncapsuled powder but it's probably the wisest way to go here.
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> > K
> >
> > > I'm not sure about calcium citrate malate, but what I have read about calcium citrate is that it is quite absorbable and maybe a particularly good choice for the eldery since elderly persons often have low levels of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs and calcium citrate requires little hydrochloric acid for absorption.
>
> Then on p733 it talks aboout Male sex pheromone.
> diect quote" Early French romantic literature reports that a man can become irresistable to women if he wears a handkerchief with which he has proeviously rubbed his armpits while fully aroused. ghis belief may accout for the old feature of male attire - the exposed breast pocket handkerchief"
> OK, Its true, its there..I had to lighten it a little..it goes on th=o dexcribe priapol..that's what is transported thru the blood and secreted in the armpits.."the alcohol has a musky odour"..then it goes on to talk about swine and concupiscent boars <grin>
>
>
> > > > "Description
> > > > Studies suggest that calcium citrate malate is the most bioavailable form of calcium. It is even more easily absorbed than the calcium obtained from dairy sources. This makes it a good choice for a growing number of people who cannot tolerate lactose or protein in dairy products."
> > > >
>
> Jan
>
Very, very complicated. Not clear as mud to me at all. I think I'll leave it that there may be some synergism by using citrate and malate together. From now on, however, I will make sure to avoid men with exposed breast pocket handkerchiefs. :-)
Thanks for doing the research.K
Posted by tealady on November 22, 2004, at 18:24:17
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate..any biochemists??? » tealady, posted by KaraS on November 21, 2004, at 14:00:32
> > Regulation of AcetylCoA/Palmitate cycle
> > AcetylCoa carboxylase catayzes the first committed step in fatty acid synthesis, and regulation of this enyzme controls all remaining steps.
> >
> > (It is inactivated through phsosporylation by hormone-responsive protein kinases (see how hormones get in it?<g>) and activated thru dephosphorylation by insulin reponsive protein phosphatase..and insulin.)
> >
> > In addition, THE ENZYME has an absolute requirement for CITRATE. Not only is citrate the SOURCE of ACETYL CoA in the cytosol, it also SIGNALS the availability of ample supplies of OXALOACETATE, and therefore pyruvate
(If acetyl CoA were the signal, the carboxylase would be turned on when the liver is already flooded with fatty acids and rapidly oxidising them)
OK ...so is this a worry with taking citrate forms? I guess that's my question with all of this
(didn't do fatty acid synthesis in my course ..just carbs, glycolysis, citric acid cycle etc)
Just wondering if citrate..if it gets into the blood still as citrate..if it could cause this fatty acid synthesis to flood the liver?..and does this cause any of that "bad" oxidation?
Acetyl CoA is inhibited by malonyl synthase. and aslo inhibited by palmitoyl CoA so as to prevent the synthesis of fatty acids faster than they can be incorporated into triglycerides."
> Mc Gilvery Boichemistry A fuctional approach
>
> So in my words...not sure if just taking citrate has provide wrong signalling...not sure if taking malate as well would help balance or mke it worse either..is it as clear as mud to you too?Anyway..that's where the idea comes from for sure <grin>..that's what ya wanted to know , right?
> > Then on p733 it talks aboout Male sex pheromone.
> > quote" Early French romantic literature reports that a man can become irresistable to women if he wears a handkerchief with which he has previously rubbed his armpits while fully aroused. This belief may accout for the odd feature of male attire - the exposed breast pocket handkerchief"
> > OK, Its true, its there..I had to lighten it a little..it goes on to describe priapol..that's what is transported thru the blood and secreted in the armpits.."the alcohol has a musky odour"..then it goes on to talk about swine and concupiscent boars <grin>
> >
> > JanThe text went on to say how male pigs froth at the mouth (froth contained the priapol) and that truffles contain the same priapol too which is why pigs are attracted to them..didn't know that.
I guess at least human males don't froth at the mouth ...but I'd be REAL wary of any that did <g>
> >
>
> Very, very complicated. Not clear as mud to me at all. I think I'll leave it that there may be some synergism by using citrate and malate together. From now on, however, I will make sure to avoid men with exposed breast pocket handkerchiefs. :-)
>
> Thanks for doing the research.
> K
>Umm just how transparent is your mud over there?
Jan
Posted by KaraS on November 22, 2004, at 18:52:58
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate..any biochemists??? » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 22, 2004, at 18:24:17
> > > Then on p733 it talks aboout Male sex pheromone.
> > > quote" Early French romantic literature reports that a man can become irresistable to women if he wears a handkerchief with which he has previously rubbed his armpits while fully aroused. This belief may accout for the odd feature of male attire - the exposed breast pocket handkerchief"
> > > OK, Its true, its there..I had to lighten it a little..it goes on to describe priapol..that's what is transported thru the blood and secreted in the armpits.."the alcohol has a musky odour"..then it goes on to talk about swine and concupiscent boars <grin>Thanks for the laugh, Jan.
I've always wanted to know about the attraction amongst swine and concupiscent boars :-) You're a hoot! Only you could take a question about a form of calcium and answer it with information on the sex lives of pigs!
> > > Jan
>
> The text went on to say how male pigs froth at the mouth (froth contained the priapol) and that truffles contain the same priapol too which is why pigs are attracted to them..didn't know that.
> I guess at least human males don't froth at the mouth ...but I'd be REAL wary of any that did <g>
I don't know about that. I've known a few in my day...> > Very, very complicated. Not clear as mud to me at all. I think I'll leave it that there may be some synergism by using citrate and malate together. From now on, however, I will make sure to avoid men with exposed breast pocket handkerchiefs. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for doing the research.
> > K
> >
>
> Umm just how transparent is your mud over there?
> Jan
>
Apparently much thicker than yours!K
Posted by tealady on November 22, 2004, at 19:48:31
In reply to Re: Calcium Citrate Malate..any biochemists??? » tealady, posted by KaraS on November 22, 2004, at 18:52:58
Well Kara at least I didn't answer this one
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/414548.html
..
so with this one it works kinda like thisif glycolysis continues under anaerobic conditions (no oxygen or not enough to meet demand) we run out of NAD
If all NAD+ gets reduced to NADH during glycolysis then glycolysis stops and no more ATP can be produced..so need some way to regenerate NAD+ from the NADH..
1. make lactate ..as in yoghurt making, or in human muscle cells when there is insufficient O2.
2. fermentation
Some bacteria and fungi use fermentation..no O2 required and no electron transport chain.
do gylcolysis ONLY..so produce 2 ATP net per glucose molecule.
in fermentation , NADH transfer their H atom (plus an electron) to pyruvate producing either
ethyl alcohol (as in grog)..yep like beer, wine etc. and CO2..goldfish do this too..So this had me wondering in the lecture if you eat say carb sushi ..do you get alcohol in your blood?..like "no officer I haven't had anything to drink.."
Or do goldish enjoy an anaerobic environment?
Does the alcohol give them a high..like if we get drunk.. do they get a hangover?So, yeah you're right :)..or you mean everyone doesn't have a brain that wonders off topic?
Jan
Posted by KaraS on November 22, 2004, at 22:48:36
In reply to reply on only me » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 22, 2004, at 19:48:31
> Well Kara at least I didn't answer this one
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/414548.html
> ..
> so with this one it works kinda like this
>
> if glycolysis continues under anaerobic conditions (no oxygen or not enough to meet demand) we run out of NAD
>
> If all NAD+ gets reduced to NADH during glycolysis then glycolysis stops and no more ATP can be produced..so need some way to regenerate NAD+ from the NADH..
>
> 1. make lactate ..as in yoghurt making, or in human muscle cells when there is insufficient O2.
>
> 2. fermentation
> Some bacteria and fungi use fermentation..no O2 required and no electron transport chain.
> do gylcolysis ONLY..so produce 2 ATP net per glucose molecule.
> in fermentation , NADH transfer their H atom (plus an electron) to pyruvate producing either
> ethyl alcohol (as in grog)..yep like beer, wine etc. and CO2..goldfish do this too..
>
> So this had me wondering in the lecture if you eat say carb sushi ..do you get alcohol in your blood?..like "no officer I haven't had anything to drink.."
> Or do goldish enjoy an anaerobic environment?
> Does the alcohol give them a high..like if we get drunk.. do they get a hangover?
>
> So, yeah you're right :)..or you mean everyone doesn't have a brain that wonders off topic?
> Jan
>It was meant affectionately as in you are funny in the way you bring such examples into your posts. Since most of your posts are far over my head, I concentrate more on the funny parts. :-)
Posted by tealady on November 23, 2004, at 1:36:43
In reply to Re: reply on only me, posted by KaraS on November 22, 2004, at 22:48:36
> > in fermentation , NADH transfer their H atom (plus an electron) to pyruvate producing either
> > ethyl alcohol (as in grog)..yep like beer, wine etc. and CO2..goldfish do this too..
> >
> > So this had me wondering in the lecture if you eat say carb sushi ..do you get alcohol in your blood?..like "no officer I haven't had anything to drink.."
> > Or do goldish enjoy an anaerobic environment?
> > Does the alcohol give them a high..like if we get drunk.. do they get a hangover?
> >
> > So, yeah you're right :)..or you mean everyone doesn't have a brain that wonders off topic?
> > Jan
> >
>
> It was meant affectionately as in you are funny in the way you bring such examples into your posts. Since most of your posts are far over my head, I concentrate more on the funny parts. :-)It's OK. My posts are way over my head too :-)
Thanks Kara,
Jan
This is the end of the thread.
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