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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 13:46:52
What do you think is the major cause of ADHD.
Stimulants like ritalin seem to work, but do you really think that dopamine/norepinephrine release is the major issue in hyperactivity ?What is your take.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 11:32:18
In reply to larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 13:46:52
> What do you think is the major cause of ADHD.
> Stimulants like ritalin seem to work, but do you really think that dopamine/norepinephrine release is the major issue in hyperactivity ?
>
> What is your take.
>
>
> LinkadgeI'm drawn to the apparently paradoxical effect of adding a stimulant to what is already an over-stimulated mind. It shows just how complex the brain really is.
I'm drawn to e.g. fish oil, and dietary avoidance of stimulating food additives (glutamate, certain food colours, etc.) as ways to down-regulate or modulate the excitatory responses. Magnesium also has a part to play, here. Very complicated, is my take.
My son has ADD. I may, also (but never diagnosed or treated). I go for diet first, drugs if necessary.
Lar
Posted by mcp on November 27, 2004, at 14:07:10
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 11:32:18
Larry, as a teacher I have been a proponent of your approach. However, it seems to be the inverse in schools and the diet is often not even looked at. Very interesting are the enlightened school districts out there getting rid of the processed junk and serving good, healthy meals in their cafeteria. It is no coincidence that behavior in all areas is markedly better. My problem is how to get this point across without being abrasive or in a way that doesn't create tension. As far as ADD/ADHD, I always encourage parents of my students to look at diet first. When I see a ADD diagnosed kid drink a soda and two bags of hot cheetos for lunch I often wonder if he truly is ADD. ANyways, I digress.
> > What do you think is the major cause of ADHD.
> > Stimulants like ritalin seem to work, but do you really think that dopamine/norepinephrine release is the major issue in hyperactivity ?
> >
> > What is your take.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> I'm drawn to the apparently paradoxical effect of adding a stimulant to what is already an over-stimulated mind. It shows just how complex the brain really is.
>
> I'm drawn to e.g. fish oil, and dietary avoidance of stimulating food additives (glutamate, certain food colours, etc.) as ways to down-regulate or modulate the excitatory responses. Magnesium also has a part to play, here. Very complicated, is my take.
>
> My son has ADD. I may, also (but never diagnosed or treated). I go for diet first, drugs if necessary.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 14:37:42
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by mcp on November 27, 2004, at 14:07:10
I would say there are a number of students taking ritalin who would far much better on a healthy diet. On the other hand, I know of plenty of children who's parents have fully met the child's nutritional needs and still require medication.
I suppose it's the same with antidepressants. I don't know if the nutritional approach can aid all depressions.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 15:04:24
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 14:37:42
> I would say there are a number of students taking ritalin who would far much better on a healthy diet. On the other hand, I know of plenty of children who's parents have fully met the child's nutritional needs and still require medication.
>
> I suppose it's the same with antidepressants. I don't know if the nutritional approach can aid all depressions.
>
>
>
>
> LinkadgeFailing to optimize nutrition because it may not completely ameliorate all symptoms is a logical fallacy, my friend. The literature has many instances where nutritional intervention turned medication non-responders into responders. Medication and nutrition may address rather divergent aspects of mental functioning, but that is not to say that there is no congruence between them. Picture two circles of the same size, overlapping. For some arrangements, the overlap is near total, while for others, it is nearly non-existent. That may be the case for nutrition vs. medication; some individuals are near fully helped by nutrition alone, whereas others depend more on medication. But it is the overlap which demonstrates the augmentative nature of one to the other.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 16:36:38
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 15:04:24
I fully agree with you. I have driven myself mad trying to optimize my nutrition.
I take fish oil, olive oil, vitamin pill, blueberry extracts, curry powder, 5-htp, tyrosine, as well as drinking green tea,
black tea, and exercising daily.The only problem is that I'm really just shooting in the dark. Taking too much of certain vitamins can be as much detriment as taking too little.
For instance, b6 worsens my mood, but folic acid doesn't. Too much fish oil makes me depressed.I know you're a magnesium proponent, but taking too much makes me feel really incapable. Whereas calcium makes me feel more *present*.
Basically what I'm getting at is that nutritional imballences can be as individual as a fingerprint.
That's not an excuse to let it slip.
Linkadge
Posted by mcp on November 27, 2004, at 16:47:20
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 14:37:42
I see your point. All I was saying is that it is far too often that I see a child's nutritional needs not being met in any way and they then turn to medications. Like Larry said, I believe that should be addressed first, then try medications or augment them. Lastly, this whole problem is worsened by the horrible state of physical activity. Some kids dread my class because I make physical education a priority. When I was young our days were spent outdoors. Nowadays, for a variety of reasons, children are physically inactive and this adds to the problem.
> I would say there are a number of students taking ritalin who would far much better on a healthy diet. On the other hand, I know of plenty of children who's parents have fully met the child's nutritional needs and still require medication.
>
> I suppose it's the same with antidepressants. I don't know if the nutritional approach can aid all depressions.
>
>
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 16:50:05
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by mcp on November 27, 2004, at 16:47:20
Yeah,
"Ritalin, the only thing better is regular physical exercise"
- The Simpsons
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 10:34:19
In reply to Re: larry, what do you think of ADHD, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 16:36:38
> I fully agree with you. I have driven myself mad trying to optimize my nutrition.
It is a crap shoot, what works and what doesn't, but you're the expert on you. You do the experiments, and you observe the outcomes.
> I take fish oil, olive oil, vitamin pill, blueberry extracts, curry powder, 5-htp, tyrosine, as well as drinking green tea,
> black tea, and exercising daily.
>
> The only problem is that I'm really just shooting in the dark. Taking too much of certain vitamins can be as much detriment as taking too little.Too much of a lone vitamin can imbalance demand for another.
See: http://www.anyvitamins.com/vitamin-info.htm
> For instance, b6 worsens my mood, but folic acid doesn't.
Do you mean just taking B6? The B-vitamins work in interactive teams. That's why they're most commonly supplied as a B-complex. Taking too much of one directly and immediately causes a deficiency of others, unless those others are available in enhanced amounts at exactly the same time. Still, that doesn't invalidate you observation, but it may explain it.
> Too much fish oil makes me depressed.
Everyone has a tolerance.
> I know you're a magnesium proponent, but taking too much makes me feel really incapable. Whereas calcium makes me feel more *present*.
Why not make sure you take them both together? Ideally, the response to a supplement is not to make you feel drugged, but to make you feel like you don't need a drug.
> Basically what I'm getting at is that nutritional imballences can be as individual as a fingerprint.Absolutely true.
> That's not an excuse to let it slip.
>
>
> LinkadgeYour response to B6 could also be explained by poor conversion to P-5-P, pyridoxal-5-phosphate. That could be a factor in your mood disorder. There is always another level to consider, in nutrition.
Most vitamins you get at the store are in the form of pro-vitamins. They still require conversion/activation before they become the real biochemical required to enhance our metabolisms. If your body lacks the enzymatic capacity to do those activation steps, you have a functional nutritional deficiency, despite adequate diet or even supplement intake.
If a particular nutrient seems to be indicated (i.e. your symptoms are addressed by supplementation of that nutrient), but taking it doesn't really help, the problem may be that you took it in the wrong form, and stressed an already stressed system (picture a traffic jam, and you add more cars).
There's always more to consider.
Lar
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