![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by lostforwards on December 11, 2004, at 17:49:06
In reply to Re: fish oil, posted by L*O*S*T=FoRWaRdS on December 11, 2004, at 17:40:43
oops, I was using the other computer when I posted that. It still had that in as the name. It wasn't intentional (I'm sure that won't stop some people from thinking it is ). Please don't let that bias how you view my post.
Posted by Glydin on December 11, 2004, at 19:45:13
In reply to Re: fish oil, posted by lostforwards on December 11, 2004, at 17:49:06
I felt results at about the month mark and steady improvement as time went on after that. I like Salmon oil at 1,000 mgs of EPA per day. I've been a steady user for a year and plan, at this point, to not be without it.
Posted by KaraS on December 11, 2004, at 20:39:42
In reply to Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting period?, posted by SLS on December 11, 2004, at 10:51:17
Isn't DHA important as well? Are most of you taking other things besides fish oil? If so, how do you know how much of your good effect is attributable to the fish oil?
Years ago a holistic doctor prescribed large doses of Omega-3 for me to treat a skin condition. It was way before I knew anything about its efficacy in treating depression. It didn't help my skin condition so I stopped the fish oil. Around the same time I starting taking Prozac. I had what I thought was a month long robust antidepressant effect from the Prozac. Recently I've been wondering if that antidepressant effect was more a result of the fish oil than the Prozac.
I have tried taking large amounts of fish oil since then but it gave me terrible problems with acne so I didn't stay on it long enough to get a good response. Now I'm taking 1 gram of fish oil and I seem to be tolerating this brand. I think I'll try increasing it gradually and see what happens.
Posted by Ktemene on December 11, 2004, at 22:28:44
In reply to Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting period?, posted by SLS on December 11, 2004, at 10:51:17
> I've been taking fish oil @ 1000mg EPA per day for just over a week. I was wondering how long one must take it before an improvement appears.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott,
There was an article in the American Journal of Psychiatry (159:477-479 March 2002) about a study of 20 people taking 1 gram E-EPA per day. The study reported significant benefits by the third week of treatment. The URL is: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/159/3/477
Good luck, and let us know how it's going.
Ktemene
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 19:08:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per » SLS, posted by Ktemene on December 11, 2004, at 22:28:44
Thanks for posting this, Scott. I had the same question. I started two 1000 mg capsules per day about a week ago. Wondering same thing or if I should increase.
Thanks and good luck to you.
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 22:29:18
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per, posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 19:08:47
> Thanks for posting this, Scott. I had the same question. I started two 1000 mg capsules per day about a week ago. Wondering same thing or if I should increase.
>
> Thanks and good luck to you.
> ggYou may not have hit your effective dose yet, and you may not have been on it long enough, or both. You may never have an obvious psychological benefit, but I can assure you, you will have health benefits accruing from its use.
Lar
Posted by jujube on December 13, 2004, at 13:26:27
In reply to Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting period?, posted by SLS on December 11, 2004, at 10:51:17
I don't have any info on how long it takes before improvement is noticed, but I thought I would share the following (which I also posted in the thread below).
Just for information, I had read that it is important that EPA and DHA (fish oil) supplements include Vitamin E to prevent rancidity, and that supplements be taken with extra vitamin E supplements to prevent oxidation in the body. I further read that some of the conflicting studies using fish oil may be due to the fact that, in some cases, the supplements did not contain any vitamin E to protect them. Apparently, study results have been superior when EPA has been consumed with a vitamin E supplement.
Tamara
> I've been taking fish oil @ 1000mg EPA per day for just over a week. I was wondering how long one must take it before an improvement appears.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Mistermindmasta on December 13, 2004, at 17:04:38
In reply to Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting period?, posted by SLS on December 11, 2004, at 10:51:17
> I've been taking fish oil @ 1000mg EPA per day for just over a week. I was wondering how long one must take it before an improvement appears.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - ScottIt really does vary depending on what other fats you eat in your diet. For example, as a comparison, you could have one person who consumes 40 grams of omega 6 fats in one day, and 5 grams of trans fats. Supplementing 1 gram of omega 3 leads to a 1:40 ratio of omega 3 to 6's. I think it really is the ratio that counts. Another person might consume a meditteranean-ish diet that contains ample monounsaturated fats from olive oil and little omega 6's. A ratio at the same 1 gram dose of omega 3 might be 1:2 ratio of omega 3's to 6's.
Clearly, over the same dose of 1 gram per day, the 1:2 ratio of 3's to 6's is about 20 times more likely to produce a desired response in comparison to the 1:40 ratio. The less omega 6's you eat, the more metabolic opportunity you give the 3's to do their job.
By supplementing one gram per day and not altering your diet any further, this might help what would have been a deficiency condition. But maybe for you to get an effect, you need to lower those other fats so there's less metabolic competition. So if you lower the omega 6's and trans fats in your diet, while staying on that same 1 g dose, you now lower the ratio of 3's to 6's, which will produce a greater effect.
While you're at it, if you can tolerate 1 gram per day and there's not a huge cost issue, why not try to boost it to 2g / day? More is not necessarily better, but I see no problem with going the whole 9 yards with your trial. I do better on higher doses (I think!).
In September 2002, I was on a very strict diet of what could have been a few grams of omega 6's per day, and about 3 - 4 g omega 3's per day. I can say for DEFINITE that this was one of the best I've ever felt. I had so much energy that my usual 200 mg caffeine / day that I'd have around 2pm gave me insomnia at 10pm! Usually nothing gives me insomnia, especially my daily caffeine use. I tend to sleep a lot, and I was having insomnia, so this was sort of good thing you could say. It had a very noticable energizing and stimulating effect; I assume that my dopaminergic transmission in my frontal lobes and reward areas was helped especially.
Posted by LOOPS on December 13, 2004, at 19:28:43
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting period?, posted by Mistermindmasta on December 13, 2004, at 17:04:38
I can't tell you how much this has been my experience too!
I was recently doing a wholefood mostly vegan diet which was pretty low in fats - only fats coming from grains and fats that were naturally present in vegetables/beans/bread etc. I then started supplementing with fish oil - around 3-4g omega 3 and bam, the difference was pretty dramatic. It cleared up my OCD pretty much right away. I'm not snapping at my hubby and am much more laid-back, plus the negative little voices are gone, and my self-consciousness is much less round people. True, I am also taking lithium orotate and sjw, but I started the fish oil from a clean slate before these, and still there were improvements on fish oil alone (although not 'quite' enough immediate ones to not do anything else - if my progress continues I am going to phase down/out the sjw, but will keep on the lith because it has absolutely no side-effects).
Ok, so then there was a week when I was eating high-fat, which was mostly eggs, chicken, some fish, butter etc etc (needed the B12 and fats for awhile). During this week I went downhill quite suddenly. It seemed like either I needed more fish oil, or something in the other fats was impeding my progress with the fish oil.
So it definitely must be the fish oil working with a low-er fat diet.
So the answer for me is carry on eating those beans and quinoa and veggies and take the fish oil! I also supplement the old lecithin when I'm not eating eggs as I believe lecithin is also very underrated when it comes to dispelling anxiety and aiding the brain's cell membranes.
Dopamine - I have no idea how fish oil does this - but I'm much more 'up' in a dopamine-type way - almost like how I should be normally I suppose, rather than failing to get any enjoyment out of life and obsessing about the smallest thing. Also, the dopamine effect works in a much more different way to say, tyrosine, which seems to have a very fixed, driven aspect to its effects, which I don't like, and makes me angry.
Seems dopamine has different effects in different parts of the brain maybe. Fish oil seems to make me more reactive to stimuli which would activate serotonin or dopamine - I can get a high off a situation which before would have just left me numb when I couldn't get 'happy'.
I will say, the first few weeks I did feel a little 'manicky', but this did indeed pass, and it felt within 'normal' boundaries (i.e. I didn't feel unnaturally stimulated). Since then I haven't 'come down', just feel like I'm getting back to that normality we all dream about, like when I was a kid and didn't have the cares of the world wrapped tightly around me.
Hail the fish oil is what I say - it does seem to work, but you have to take enough (I do anyway).
Loops
Posted by Mistermindmasta on December 15, 2004, at 0:37:12
In reply to Oh wow! I totally agree!!!, posted by LOOPS on December 13, 2004, at 19:28:43
Yeah, hail the fish oil. My own personal theory is that certain people have genetic dispositions towards a high requirement for omega 3's and a low requirement for omega 6's. When these people don't get what they are genetically programmed for, they suffer with symptoms of autoimmune disease (excessive inflammation) and mental disorders.
Imagine this scenario: your descendents lead a life where their diet consisted of no less than 30% cold water oily fish, packed with tons of omega 3's. What happens when you take someone with these genetics and give them the typical american diet laden with fake fats and tons of omega 6's?
At the very least, a propensity for increased inflammatory activity and inadequate neurotransmission... That's my thinking.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 15, 2004, at 0:48:19
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 22:29:18
Thanks, Lar.
I will stay at two for another week and then maybe try upping it to see how I feel. But it is reassuring that there are benefits beyond psychological relief.Take care,
gg
Posted by SLS on December 15, 2004, at 8:07:40
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on December 15, 2004, at 0:48:19
Thanks for the input everyone!
I have not been doing too well, and have been very low on motivation to want to participate here. Please forgive my being uncommunicative.
- Scott
Posted by Glydin on December 15, 2004, at 8:13:12
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per, posted by SLS on December 15, 2004, at 8:07:40
I hope things improve for you soon and I'm wishing you wellness.
Glydin
Posted by LOOPS on December 15, 2004, at 8:21:37
In reply to Re: Oh wow! I totally agree!!!, posted by Mistermindmasta on December 15, 2004, at 0:37:12
Mistermindmasta -
that's interesting, because I suffer from eczema and psoriasis (genetic/stress-induced), which gets pretty much unbearable at times. I assume this could be connected to inflammation problems stemming from omega-6 predominance in the diet? I have seen a slight improvement in my eczema, but then it's Summer here at last (Chile), and our house is finally drying out (gets damp live by the sea etc.).
The improvement I'm seeing with the fish oil is slow but steady - little things I am noticing are getting easier, less traumatic, not so much of a big deal (instead of feeling like I can't cope unless I do this, or this, or feeling everything is just too much of an effort to even bother).
Loops
Posted by platinumbride on December 17, 2004, at 14:14:36
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per, posted by SLS on December 15, 2004, at 8:07:40
Scott,
Thank you for all of your input.
I'm sorry you aren't feeling well and that you seem to have such a struggle.I very much hope that the heaviness begins to go away,
Diane> Thanks for the input everyone!
>
> I have not been doing too well, and have been very low on motivation to want to participate here. Please forgive my being uncommunicative.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 7:45:51
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per, posted by platinumbride on December 17, 2004, at 14:14:36
Thanks, Diane.
Your kind sentiments warm my heart.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 15:43:19
In reply to Re: Fish Oil for depression - How long waiting per » platinumbride, posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 7:45:51
Hi gg,
I saw a post of yours on another board about fish oil causing you acne. I don't know if you have done a search here for our earlier thread on this or not. If not, I wanted to tell you that I also got horrible cystic acne from some brands of fish oil as well as flax seed oil. I'm currently taking RxOmega-3 Factors by Natural Factors which I order from iHerb.com. I don't have any problems with acne from it. My face is completely clear. This might be due in part to the fact that I have less hormonal activity than I used to but I really don't think that's the main reason. Anyway, I just thought I'd let you know this in case you want to try it.
Take care,
Kara
Posted by gardenergirl on January 1, 2005, at 16:27:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message for gardenergirl » SLS, posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 15:43:19
Thanks, Kara
Actually, my acne is on my chest, and it looks more like a rash than actual pimples. It's really annoying. I'm sorry about the cystic acne you experienced. Every once in awhile I get that around the time of my period. It's awful! Glad you found something that works for you.
Take care,
gg
Posted by tealady on January 29, 2005, at 2:28:13
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message for gardenergirl » SLS, posted by KaraS on January 1, 2005, at 15:43:19
Kara,
I tried a few brands (5?) of fish oil and all gave me noticeable large acne.I couldn't get past one capsule a day, and even with that I had some acne.
I'm taking flaxseed now and I only have a few spots on my body.
I read somewhere that lack of VitB5 can cause the acne reaction with fish oil. I haven't tried large doses of B5 as yet with the fish oil to test it..just thought maybe it might help someone elso.
What do you mean by less hormonal now?
And by any chance did you start a multiB or more B5 when the acne disappeared? Just wondering if it would work or not.Best wishes, Jan
Posted by KaraS on January 29, 2005, at 4:01:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message for gardenergirl » KaraS, posted by tealady on January 29, 2005, at 2:28:13
> Kara,
> I tried a few brands (5?) of fish oil and all gave me noticeable large acne.I couldn't get past one capsule a day, and even with that I had some acne.
> I'm taking flaxseed now and I only have a few spots on my body.
> I read somewhere that lack of VitB5 can cause the acne reaction with fish oil. I haven't tried large doses of B5 as yet with the fish oil to test it..just thought maybe it might help someone elso.
> What do you mean by less hormonal now?
> And by any chance did you start a multiB or more B5 when the acne disappeared? Just wondering if it would work or not.
>
> Best wishes, Jan
>Hi Jan,
It's amazing that you've been able to find some a possible explanation for the acne from fish oil. There have been several posts about it but no ideas of possible cause.I do take a B-complex capsule now. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of when I started taking it but I can't remember. Maybe that is the difference for me with the fish oil. I am not having acne from it now at 2 grams a day. I thought it might have been the brand. I've recently decreased from a B-100 complex to a B-50 so I'll see if that makes a difference at all.
I had the worst acne from flax seed oil. I remember my face looked like it had these marble sized welts all over it. It was bizarre.
Less hormonal was my inept way of saying menopausal - so probably less estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA.
Kara
Posted by Optimist on January 30, 2005, at 11:48:03
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » tealady, posted by KaraS on January 29, 2005, at 4:01:47
I noticed a bad flare up of acne as well after using fish oil. Both the salmon capsules, and bottled cod liver oil. I don't bother with each anymore cause it makes my acne much worse. Acne's something I tend to struggle with anyway. I don't need anything else making it worse! :)
Brian
Posted by KaraS on January 30, 2005, at 13:31:51
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » KaraS, posted by Optimist on January 30, 2005, at 11:48:03
> I noticed a bad flare up of acne as well after using fish oil. Both the salmon capsules, and bottled cod liver oil. I don't bother with each anymore cause it makes my acne much worse. Acne's something I tend to struggle with anyway. I don't need anything else making it worse! :)
>
> Brian
I hear you! It's so strange that this reaction to fish oil is prevalent yet there's virtually nothing in the literature about it. Tealady's reading that low B5 might be involved is the only information I've seen or heard concerning this.There was a time that I took large doses of it without a problem. I purchased the fish oil through a holistic doctor. I wonder what the difference was then. I'm on 2 grams a day now and my face is definitely oilier though I'm not getting those welts on it. At some point I'm going to try increasing the dosage and see what happens.
k
Posted by tealady on January 30, 2005, at 16:27:03
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » tealady, posted by KaraS on January 29, 2005, at 4:01:47
> > Kara,
> > I tried a few brands (5?) of fish oil and all gave me noticeable large acne.I couldn't get past one capsule a day, and even with that I had some acne.
> > I'm taking flaxseed now and I only have a few spots on my body.
> > I read somewhere that lack of VitB5 can cause the acne reaction with fish oil. I haven't tried large doses of B5 as yet with the fish oil to test it..just thought maybe it might help someone elso.
> > What do you mean by less hormonal now?
> > And by any chance did you start a multiB or more B5 when the acne disappeared? Just wondering if it would work or not.
> >
> > Best wishes, Jan
> >
>
> Hi Jan,
> It's amazing that you've been able to find some a possible explanation for the acne from fish oil. There have been several posts about it but no ideas of possible cause.
>
> I do take a B-complex capsule now. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of when I started taking it but I can't remember. Maybe that is the difference for me with the fish oil. I am not having acne from it now at 2 grams a day. I thought it might have been the brand. I've recently decreased from a B-100 complex to a B-50 so I'll see if that makes a difference at all.
>
> I had the worst acne from flax seed oil. I remember my face looked like it had these marble sized welts all over it. It was bizarre.
>
> Less hormonal was my inept way of saying menopausal - so probably less estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA.
>Hi Kara,
I suspected the less hormonal bit was happening..did you notice a lot of my posts to you on that dopamine stuff were based on lowering estrogen effects? It's just that your symptoms fitted :-)
OK I'll throw in a little more detail in a hurry.
I'm going on hols again soon and I'm all abstracted out!
I reckon B5 (from my glance at posts on it) seems to work in over 80% of people with acne, at least those who posts on forums about it.
Here's why with some of the other things one can be short on as well.
But I suspect B5 is hit hard by stress as well.
--------------------------------------Acne is thought to be linked to “fats” intake and the sex hormones.
Coenzyme-A is used in both fatty acid metabolism and sex hormone synthesis.
Coenzyme-A is formed from adenosine triphosphate, cysteine, and pantothenic acid(B5).So a bottleneck (limiting thingy) of B5 will mean eating more fats, as in chocolate, fish oils, EPO, flaxseed, “fatty” meals
Or raging hormones..as in teenager, perimenopausal will “cause” acne if insufficient B5.
It formed the impression from a glance over a few forums, that B5 supplementation (mega dose usually but start at 250mg- 500mg/day with a MultiB25 or MutliB50 for “balance” depending on your weight/sex/age) does actually work to stop the acne caused by EFA supplementation in over 80% of cases…but don’t quote me on this. In other cases maybe the adrenals are just too weak/exhausted to handle it…in which case just back off, take it slowly , and use a multiB25 with maybe 50 of B5. Note the adrenals also produce testosterone etc.Also “the skin of acne patients shows a greater activity of 5-alpha-reductase--the enzyme converting testosterone to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone. This increased activity is independent of systemic levels of androgens and may explain the poor correlation between systemic levels of androgens and the severity of the acne lesions”
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-117.shtml“Leung (1997) suggested that a dietary deficiency of pantothenic acid could be the main cause of acne
When there is a plentiful supply of pantothenic acid, both of these processes can be carried out, but when the person's diet does not supply enough panthothenic acid, the body has to adjust accordingly. Fatty acid metabolism will probably be reduced, lipids start to accumulate in the sebaceous glands, sebum builds up in the pores and leading to an acne outbreak”In the luteal (read PMS) phase of the menstrual cycle, progesterone in is secreted abundantly by the corpus lutcum. This naturally will take up a lot of pantothenic acid from the body's pantothenic pool reducing what is available for fatty acid metabolism.
I used to find that vitB5 was a supplement I really benefitted from in my teenage years and 20’s.
Also Siberian Ginseng (ground root powder) that I can no longer get! This also supported the adrenals.
The synthesis of sex hormones uses pantothenic acid, leaving a relative shortage of it to efficiently metabolize fatty acids. This may be the cause of teenage acne.
Stress is , of course, in there too as a cause of acne.
To understand this, one should recall that in combating stress, the body will secrete glucocorticoids from the adrenal glands. The glucocorticoids, like the sex hormones, are derivatives of cholesterol, and increased demand for glucocorticoids will draw on the pantothenic acid pool. Lipid metabolism may therefore be reduced, leading to acne.Anything that uses more B5 actually increases our chances of acne.
Although B5 appears to be the main limiting cofactor , Vitamin A (as in cod liver oil a couple of times a week) and zinc are also needed somewhere as cofactors I suspect. B6, biotin, and even niacinamide are in there as well in some people aapparently., and below there is a bit on carnitine, but I’m not sure on this. Anything “short” in the fatty acid metabolic chain I guess, but this usually is B5 in most people. P5p B6 in females over 40 would probably be up in there too.
Personally I found fish oil > flaxseed>EPO> other fats ..eg chocolate as far as acne is concerned. But this too is individual and depends on our relative shortages in our individual bodies as far as our bodies determine our priorities in need of use.
The low concentrations in stressed calves may reflect the role of pantothenic acid in adrenal function and corticosteroid synthesis (Goodman,
1960; Fidanza et al., 1978).http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/74/6/1358.pdf
”For nonruminants, stress and disease greatly increase requirements for vitamin B6, folicacid, pantothenic acid, and ascorbate.”
“Even after prolonged feed restriction, calves in this study had higher concentrations of plasma folic acid, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, vitamin B6, and ascorbate than plasma concentrations of shipping-stressed calves in a previous survey (Dubeski, 1992). This might suggest
that stress has a larger impact than restricted feed intake on plasma vitamin concentrations and perhaps on vitamin status”http://www.coenzyme-a.com/research.html
Binaghi, p., Cellina, G., Lo Cicero, G., Bruschi, F., & Penotti, M.; Evaluation of the Cholesterol-lowering effectiveness of pantethine in Perimenopausal Age; Minerva Med. June 1990; 81: 6, 475-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2359503&itool=iconabstrControlled evaluation of pantethine, a natural hypolipidemic compound, in patients with different forms of hyperlipoproteinemia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6365107&itool=iconabstr
--------------------
The role of carnitine in normal and altered fatty acid metabolism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12751049&itool=iconabstr
Carnitine is a low-molecular-weight compound obtained from the diet that also is biosynthesized from the essential amino acids lysine and methionine. Carnitine has been identified in a variety of mammalian tissues and has an obligate role in the mitochondrial oxidation of long-chain fatty acids through the action of specialized acyltransferases. Other roles for carnitine include buffering of the acyl coenzyme A (CoA)-CoA ratio, branched-chain amino acid metabolism, removal of excess acyl groups, and peroxisomal fatty acid oxidation. The growing body of evidence about carnitine function has led to increased understanding and identification of disorders associated with altered carnitine metabolism. Disorders of fatty acid oxidation and metabolism typically are associated with primary and secondary forms of carnitine deficiency. These disorders, which include increased lipolysis, increased lipid peroxidation, accumulation of acylcarnitines, and altered membrane permeability, have significant consequences for patients with myocardial diseases and kidney failure. Therapeutic administration of carnitine shows promise in treating selected groups of patients who have altered carnitine homeostasis, resulting in improved cardiac function, increased exercise capacity, reduced muscle cramps, and reduced intradialytic complications.
PMID: 12751049 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by tealady on January 30, 2005, at 17:02:17
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » KaraS, posted by tealady on January 30, 2005, at 16:27:03
see above post
also B5 and chloresterol loweringJan
Posted by KaraS on January 30, 2005, at 19:51:29
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » KaraS, posted by tealady on January 30, 2005, at 16:27:03
> > > Kara,
> > > I tried a few brands (5?) of fish oil and all gave me noticeable large acne.I couldn't get past one capsule a day, and even with that I had some acne.
> > > I'm taking flaxseed now and I only have a few spots on my body.
> > > I read somewhere that lack of VitB5 can cause the acne reaction with fish oil. I haven't tried large doses of B5 as yet with the fish oil to test it..just thought maybe it might help someone elso.
> > > What do you mean by less hormonal now?
> > > And by any chance did you start a multiB or more B5 when the acne disappeared? Just wondering if it would work or not.
> > >
> > > Best wishes, Jan
> > >
> >
> > Hi Jan,
> > It's amazing that you've been able to find some a possible explanation for the acne from fish oil. There have been several posts about it but no ideas of possible cause.
> >
> > I do take a B-complex capsule now. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of when I started taking it but I can't remember. Maybe that is the difference for me with the fish oil. I am not having acne from it now at 2 grams a day. I thought it might have been the brand. I've recently decreased from a B-100 complex to a B-50 so I'll see if that makes a difference at all.
> >
> > I had the worst acne from flax seed oil. I remember my face looked like it had these marble sized welts all over it. It was bizarre.
> >
> > Less hormonal was my inept way of saying menopausal - so probably less estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA.
> >
>
> Hi Kara,
>
> I suspected the less hormonal bit was happening..did you notice a lot of my posts to you on that dopamine stuff were based on lowering estrogen effects? It's just that your symptoms fitted :-)
>
> OK I'll throw in a little more detail in a hurry.
> I'm going on hols again soon and I'm all abstracted out!
> I reckon B5 (from my glance at posts on it) seems to work in over 80% of people with acne, at least those who posts on forums about it.
> Here's why with some of the other things one can be short on as well.
> But I suspect B5 is hit hard by stress as well.
> --------------------------------------
>
> Acne is thought to be linked to “fats” intake and the sex hormones.
> Coenzyme-A is used in both fatty acid metabolism and sex hormone synthesis.
> Coenzyme-A is formed from adenosine triphosphate, cysteine, and pantothenic acid(B5).
>
> So a bottleneck (limiting thingy) of B5 will mean eating more fats, as in chocolate, fish oils, EPO, flaxseed, “fatty” meals
> Or raging hormones..as in teenager, perimenopausal will “cause” acne if insufficient B5.
> It formed the impression from a glance over a few forums, that B5 supplementation (mega dose usually but start at 250mg- 500mg/day with a MultiB25 or MutliB50 for “balance” depending on your weight/sex/age) does actually work to stop the acne caused by EFA supplementation in over 80% of cases…but don’t quote me on this. In other cases maybe the adrenals are just too weak/exhausted to handle it…in which case just back off, take it slowly , and use a multiB25 with maybe 50 of B5. Note the adrenals also produce testosterone etc.
>
> Also “the skin of acne patients shows a greater activity of 5-alpha-reductase--the enzyme converting testosterone to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone. This increased activity is independent of systemic levels of androgens and may explain the poor correlation between systemic levels of androgens and the severity of the acne lesions”
> http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-117.shtml
>
> “Leung (1997) suggested that a dietary deficiency of pantothenic acid could be the main cause of acne
> When there is a plentiful supply of pantothenic acid, both of these processes can be carried out, but when the person's diet does not supply enough panthothenic acid, the body has to adjust accordingly. Fatty acid metabolism will probably be reduced, lipids start to accumulate in the sebaceous glands, sebum builds up in the pores and leading to an acne outbreak”
>
> In the luteal (read PMS) phase of the menstrual cycle, progesterone in is secreted abundantly by the corpus lutcum. This naturally will take up a lot of pantothenic acid from the body's pantothenic pool reducing what is available for fatty acid metabolism.
>
> I used to find that vitB5 was a supplement I really benefitted from in my teenage years and 20’s.
> Also Siberian Ginseng (ground root powder) that I can no longer get! This also supported the adrenals.
> The synthesis of sex hormones uses pantothenic acid, leaving a relative shortage of it to efficiently metabolize fatty acids. This may be the cause of teenage acne.
>
> Stress is , of course, in there too as a cause of acne.
> To understand this, one should recall that in combating stress, the body will secrete glucocorticoids from the adrenal glands. The glucocorticoids, like the sex hormones, are derivatives of cholesterol, and increased demand for glucocorticoids will draw on the pantothenic acid pool. Lipid metabolism may therefore be reduced, leading to acne.
>
> Anything that uses more B5 actually increases our chances of acne.
>
> Although B5 appears to be the main limiting cofactor , Vitamin A (as in cod liver oil a couple of times a week) and zinc are also needed somewhere as cofactors I suspect. B6, biotin, and even niacinamide are in there as well in some people aapparently., and below there is a bit on carnitine, but I’m not sure on this. Anything “short” in the fatty acid metabolic chain I guess, but this usually is B5 in most people. P5p B6 in females over 40 would probably be up in there too.
> Personally I found fish oil > flaxseed>EPO> other fats ..eg chocolate as far as acne is concerned. But this too is individual and depends on our relative shortages in our individual bodies as far as our bodies determine our priorities in need of use.
>
>
> The low concentrations in stressed calves may reflect the role of pantothenic acid in adrenal function and corticosteroid synthesis (Goodman,
> 1960; Fidanza et al., 1978).
>
> http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/74/6/1358.pdf
> ”For nonruminants, stress and disease greatly increase requirements for vitamin B6, folicacid, pantothenic acid, and ascorbate.”
> “Even after prolonged feed restriction, calves in this study had higher concentrations of plasma folic acid, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, vitamin B6, and ascorbate than plasma concentrations of shipping-stressed calves in a previous survey (Dubeski, 1992). This might suggest
> that stress has a larger impact than restricted feed intake on plasma vitamin concentrations and perhaps on vitamin status”
>
> http://www.coenzyme-a.com/research.html
> Binaghi, p., Cellina, G., Lo Cicero, G., Bruschi, F., & Penotti, M.; Evaluation of the Cholesterol-lowering effectiveness of pantethine in Perimenopausal Age; Minerva Med. June 1990; 81: 6, 475-9.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2359503&itool=iconabstr
>
> Controlled evaluation of pantethine, a natural hypolipidemic compound, in patients with different forms of hyperlipoproteinemia.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6365107&itool=iconabstr
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
> The role of carnitine in normal and altered fatty acid metabolism.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12751049&itool=iconabstr
> Carnitine is a low-molecular-weight compound obtained from the diet that also is biosynthesized from the essential amino acids lysine and methionine. Carnitine has been identified in a variety of mammalian tissues and has an obligate role in the mitochondrial oxidation of long-chain fatty acids through the action of specialized acyltransferases. Other roles for carnitine include buffering of the acyl coenzyme A (CoA)-CoA ratio, branched-chain amino acid metabolism, removal of excess acyl groups, and peroxisomal fatty acid oxidation. The growing body of evidence about carnitine function has led to increased understanding and identification of disorders associated with altered carnitine metabolism. Disorders of fatty acid oxidation and metabolism typically are associated with primary and secondary forms of carnitine deficiency. These disorders, which include increased lipolysis, increased lipid peroxidation, accumulation of acylcarnitines, and altered membrane permeability, have significant consequences for patients with myocardial diseases and kidney failure. Therapeutic administration of carnitine shows promise in treating selected groups of patients who have altered carnitine homeostasis, resulting in improved cardiac function, increased exercise capacity, reduced muscle cramps, and reduced intradialytic complications.
> PMID: 12751049 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Jan,
Thanks so much for all of this information! I wish I knew this many years ago when I used to have trouble with acne. Oh well...80% of the people who had acne from fish oil got rid of the problem with B5 - that's very impressive. I generally take a multi vitamin daily and I used to take a B100 as well. (Now I'm taking a B50 instead.) I do have some individual B5 at home. I was taking it before when I was worried about my adrenals.
I will definitely start on it again when I increase my dosage of fish oil. I'll let you know how it goes.
Have a great time on holiday! Talk to you when you get back.
Kara
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.