![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
In reply to I use magnesium orotate....for sport, posted by LOOPS on March 30, 2005, at 19:03:22
Hi Loops. Thank you. I'm not familiar with the orotate form. I will look it up.
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
In reply to Re: I use magnesium orotate....for sport » LOOPS, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
have a look at lifelinknet.com - they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site. Gives an anecdotal experience with using calcium orotate for appetite supression, plus an overall article on the family of orotates and hans neiper.
I personally am not taking lithium orotate now on a daily basis, because after being on the fish oil for a while now, I find it makes me feel too calm and sluggish, even with one tablet. Now isn't that odd?? Before it was the difference between heaven and hell for me regarding anxiety management.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread guys - it is kinda relevant but not too much!
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
> have a look at www.lifelinknet.com
- they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site.Just looking around. Looks great. Thanks.
Not sure why I go worse on fish oil. Maybe one day I'll figure it out.
I have my Dad on it though..just 2 caps a day and salmon a couple of times a week.Jan
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
In reply to Good site Thanks » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.
How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
In reply to fish oil (...again - sorry), posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
> You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
> I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
>
> They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.Ahh that explains my brain degradation...
Hi Loops:-)
I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)
http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0470003790/cutting_edge/viagra/viagra.htm
I'm sure there are better references out there, and It's all a bit beyond me..but that was where my suspicions about fish oil lie..similar symptoms, although not as profound.
NO I think binds like carbon monoxide(although not anywhere near the same extent) and cuts the binding of Oxygen to hemeglobin... this is all very vague and washed out in my brain..so I could be completely wrong, but I think that's what I remember.I'm one who always feels like there isn't enough oxygen..unless i",m out in the real fresh air relaxing.
NO is good stuff providing you don't have too much of it ..as with everything I guess.Maybe someone else who is interested in why fish oil works might be intersted in this line though..and can shoot me down if I'm on the wrong track please.
>
> How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
>
over a year and with VitE..though only the alpha kind (with CoQ10 as well) and some EPO.> I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
>
> ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
>Yes, I'm one who loves B6 (especially enteric P5P) and loves EPO..my 2 favourite supps for many years..ofh and zinc too. That should maybe indicate pyroluria? but I can't get tested for it..my urine is not pink or anything like that though.
tea
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 19:52:04
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
I love P-5-P and zinc as well. In fact I've been on zinc for a number of years, well before I got any sort of knowledge about nutrition and vitamins.
I was unwillingly sent to a Christian therapist by my darling well-intentioned Mother whilst suffering severely from bulimia in my teenage years. The best thing she ever did was give me a 'taste' zinc test, and immediately give me a big bottle of liquid zinc, which I took every day for the next two months. There was much improvement. I think I must have been extremely deficient (well, that's common with bulimics).
Alas, I did not continue the treatment, but remember vividly during college starting to take Centrum (which has 15mg zinc) and feeling better. I have taken zinc ever since, but in larger doses.
I don't take the P5P every day - I think I'm scared it's efficacy will wear off or some silly notion if I take it all the time. I save it for when I'm feeling anxious mixed-up horrid PMSy.
There is a possibility I have destroyed some of my absorption abilities in my stomach through years of purging - which would explain why I can't make P5P - or maybe. There's just no way of telling.
Interesting about the NO. Interestingly, one of the first things I noticed from taking the fish oil was a re-emergence of my long-dormant sex-drive, much to my husband's delight. I originally put this down to reintroducing saturated fat and animal products to my diet (which followed immediately after taking the fish oil - realizing a vegan diet was not obviously optimal for me), but now I think it is the fish oil.
Anwyay with the EPO, I have found taking borage oil has cleared up some psoriasis on my eyebrows. I think it's true about taking fish oil with GLA source to combat inflammation. I think this because long ago I bought a huge tub of EPO to combat really horrible eczema I had whilst in an even more horrid job. It didn't work. In fact the eczema got worse and I was taking a lot of EPO. I then bought fish oil, and unwittingly took this INSTEAD of the EPO, not knowing the theory. Again, no improvement. Pity, as I did notice mood improvement after the fish oil. If only I'd known to combine these two.
Loops
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 23:11:48
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
Hi LOOPS. Thank you for that link.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:23:55
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
> I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
> and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)Ah, but this is macrophage NO production. These are white blood "killer" cells, and they use NO to destroy targetted cells/invaders. I don't see this as a generalized increase in NO synthesis. This was entirely a study of macrophage response to prostaglandins/activation.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:27:04
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 19:52:04
> Alas, I did not continue the treatment, but remember vividly during college starting to take Centrum (which has 15mg zinc) and feeling better. I have taken zinc ever since, but in larger doses.
>
> I don't take the P5P every day - I think I'm scared it's efficacy will wear off or some silly notion if I take it all the time. I save it for when I'm feeling anxious mixed-up horrid PMSy.You know what? I would call those rationalizations of gut feelings. I think your body sends messages, but they aren't in a rational form. We create rational form for them, so that we can consider them cognitively.
What I hear you say is, "I take these supplements according to need, and that need differs."
Lar
Posted by tealady on April 10, 2005, at 18:04:52
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:23:55
> > I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
> > and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)
>
> Ah, but this is macrophage NO production. These are white blood "killer" cells, and they use NO to destroy targetted cells/invaders. I don't see this as a generalized increase in NO synthesis. This was entirely a study of macrophage response to prostaglandins/activation.
>
> LarI've been seeing this fish oil promotion of NO in many differing places..just forget where
here's another
http://www.oilofpisces.com/cholesterol.html"Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
Jan
Posted by LOOPS on April 12, 2005, at 9:47:19
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:27:04
>
> You know what? I would call those rationalizations of gut feelings. I think your body sends messages, but they aren't in a rational form. We create rational form for them, so that we can consider them cognitively.
>
> What I hear you say is, "I take these supplements according to need, and that need differs."
>
It certainly does! I often wondered if some of my reactions are 'all in my head'; my husband thinks it's amazing I react so strongly to supplements - but he is too busy to notice what is going on in his body/brain. I have a lot of time spent to myself; when I get enough sleep and eat well, I can tell how different supplements are affecting me quite acutely. My life is a baseline that is very constant, and luckily, without too much exterior 'noise', or stress.It's taken me 2 years to get this tuned in - I'm sure a lot of people here are the same. I've gotten used to feeling the effects of different supplements and now know a lot about what is good and what ain't for my brain/body (at the moment).
I have just ditched my GLA for awhile, for instance, as I am pretty sure it was dragging my mood down (may go back to lower dose). I know because I started the fish oil long before the GLA, was doing fine, but then got a little anxious and added in the GLA (for eczema + anxiety) - fixed the anxiety but then kept taking it in probable too large doses and mood/motivation started declining (though not too much). Have dropped it completely and mood/motivation is stabilizing once more.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 11:08:21
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 10, 2005, at 18:04:52
> I've been seeing this fish oil promotion of NO in many differing places..just forget where
> here's another
> http://www.oilofpisces.com/cholesterol.html
>
> "Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
> perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?
>
> Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
>
> JanIt's free unregulated NO that's a problem. As a pressor-modulator (a controller of blood pressure/flow), NO is a good guy. If free NO is a problem, then you need to deal with peroxynitrite stress, as per Dr. Martin Pall.
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html
How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
Lar
Posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 11:08:21
> > "Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
> > perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?
> >
> > Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
> >
> > Jan
>
> It's free unregulated NO that's a problem. As a pressor-modulator (a controller of blood pressure/flow), NO is a good guy. If free NO is a problem, then you need to deal with peroxynitrite stress, as per Dr. Martin Pall.
>
>
I know NO is a good guy . I just thought maybe there is a point where you can have too much? Guess I don't see the diff between free NO and NO. (although I understand free and bound etc)
I remember there is INOs and ENOs(endothelial) too ?
At least I now iknow th worite NO in all caps, grin.http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html
>
> How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
>
> LarWell seeing as you asked and all...
I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
Maybe it's just coincidence ?Jan
Posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> JanHi Jan,
Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
Here, DSCH, says:
"I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artifically and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
"The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
Hang in there.
JL
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> Jan
Posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
You probably know who I am, but just in case....
I had to reregister from my previous posting name of JLx as I couldn't reset my password (never got the e-mail) and I rec'd no response when I e-mailed Dr. Bob. Very annoying.
JL
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2005, at 18:11:55
In reply to By the way...used to be JLx » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
> I rec'd no response when I e-mailed Dr. Bob. Very annoying.
Oops, sorry about that! Just sent a reply now...
Bob
Posted by KaraS on May 5, 2005, at 20:12:04
In reply to By the way...used to be JLx » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
Posted by tealady on May 7, 2005, at 18:08:01
In reply to RE: SAMe experiment, subsequent downswing » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
> > > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > Well seeing as you asked and all...
> >
> > I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
> >
> > The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> > It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
> >
> > It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
> >
> > I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> > Maybe it's just coincidence ?
> >
> > Jan
> --------------------------------------> Hi Jan,
>
> Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
>
> It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
>
> As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
>I was thinking along those lines as well
> The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
>
> Here, DSCH, says:
>
> "I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
>I tried NADH http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/280564.html :-)
I stopped due to the depression but it did increase energy..strange.
You've got some posts there on SAMe and methyl donation..TMG etc and DHEA.
I am still taking DHEA, I found 20mg a day too much...testosterone way too high take 7.5mg compounded in a mulltiB.every day or two. Not sure if it does anything much at present. I'm hoping for some oestrogen conversion..but I think its mostly testosterone. It may help with anxiety..not sure.> There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
>
> Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
>
Well TMG is in my box I got from the US beginning of this year and I'm slowly working thru..probably next to try..although if it does donate a lot of methyl I'm not sure if I will go bad..so I'll leave it for a bit I think...unless someone can tell me why I need it., and that it'll be different to methylcobalamin in the methyl bit.I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
After the taurine I tired SAMe..I only had 1 packet of 20 (bought from US iherb)..I only order once a year usually as postage cost is about $60:-) I'd always suspected SAMe might help and I surprised at how well it worked. Better than any antiD I'd ever tried by orders of magnitude and fairly fast too.
So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
I go real bad on methylcobalamin. I tried this about 3 years ago..for about 18 mths.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261999.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/262127.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263744.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263813.html
this thread :-) LOL
never could figure that one out. I occasionally take a sublingual methylcobamin (I get those from the Us too)..but it always has a negative effect,..increases tingling, very wiped out, and slight colouring of palms, soles of feet. Feels a bit like capillaries getting affected somehow. But I seem to go Ok on dibencozide sublingual (that's the other b12 without the methyl bit). It's in http://www.iherb.com/coen.html . This is also a favourite of mine. Its a sublingual with all the coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 as well as B5, folate etc. I think its a good cover in case there is something I'm missing somewhere. I take these every 3 days or so..trying to make it last. (anther from the US). Doesn't provide any methyl ..and doesn't affect me negatively either. I can't say I notice a big positive either...I just take for insurance I guess.
> I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
>Yeah, I know what you mean :-)
> I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
>I'm pretty sure magnesium works by overloading the system and therefore changing the equilibrium..driving out whatever was there before and replacing with magnesium. Its much the same idea as water softeners..which replace the calcium or magnesium with sodium in the water..which feels softer and washes clothes better but is bad for the heart(an unexplined huge increse in an area where they used water softening ). The calcium/mag ions in the water gets withdrawn from the water and sodium ions the filter replaces the calcium/mag. You can "recharge' the falter by reverse flushing with strong sodium chloride..putting heaps in to change the equilibrium, thus flushing out the calcium/mag and replacing by sodium again..so you can reuse it. The balance(equilibrium) changes by overloading.
That's how magnesium works too I think..when you feel better after taking large doses.
it seemed to work for me when I went too high in iron last year. Took heaps of magnesium for any effect..but I think it musta lowered the iron and replaced whatever with magnesium..not sure where..but it was a relief.
That's why I was once wondering why the heck you needed so much magnesium...not that I didn't believe you, just I wondered what your problem may have been. I think you thought too much calcium?> I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artificially and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
>
> I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
>
> "The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11896744&dopt=Abstract
>
> You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
>
> I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
me either :-)) Like I said back in the pold posts..I still don't get this methylation stuff :-)
>
> Hang in there.Thanks JL
Jan
Posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 17:50:23
In reply to RE: SAMe experiment, subsequent downswing » JLxx, posted by tealady on May 7, 2005, at 18:08:01
> I am still taking DHEA, I found 20mg a day too much...testosterone way too high take 7.5mg compounded in a mulltiB.every day or two. Not sure if it does anything much at present. I'm hoping for some oestrogen conversion..but I think its mostly testosterone. It may help with anxiety..not sure.
I have 25 mg tablets that I split into quarters. They turn out uneven so I take anywhere from 4-8 mg at a time, and not every day, kind of hit or miss. What I notice is the libido effect more than anything now, especially if I've slacked off and then take some. I've been taking it at night for no real reason, but recently read that it normally peaks in the morning so that's the time to take it. I also read that fat helps absorption.
Do you recall previous discussion about boron and estrogen? Have you ever tried taking boron?
> Well TMG is in my box I got from the US beginning of this year and I'm slowly working thru..probably next to try..although if it does donate a lot of methyl I'm not sure if I will go bad..so I'll leave it for a bit I think...unless someone can tell me why I need it., and that it'll be different to methylcobalamin in the methyl bit.I sure don't know. I thought that people there were suggesting that TMG is equivalent to SAM-e, so I thought if SAM-e helped you then that may too. BUT, there was also something there that had me thinking that if I wanted to duplicate SAM-e I should take methionine AND TMG.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
From what I remember about Larry's posts on the subject, that is not much taurine.
> After the taurine I tired SAMe..I only had 1 packet of 20 (bought from US iherb)..I only order once a year usually as postage cost is about $60:-) I'd always suspected SAMe might help and I surprised at how well it worked. Better than any antiD I'd ever tried by orders of magnitude and fairly fast too.
That was me too. Too bad you have to pay so much postage. Is there somebody else in your area that might also be using supplements that you could pool orders with? Or maybe a shop could order wholesale some of these things. Or bodybuilders. Those guys use tons of products and must get them from somewhere.
> So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
> I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?I don't think MSM is actually a methyl donor. Neither are glucosamine and taurine, are they?Don't see them on Sahelian's page on methyl donors: http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.html
> I go real bad on methylcobalamin. I tried this about 3 years ago..for about 18 mths.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261999.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/262127.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263744.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263813.html
> this thread :-) LOL
> never could figure that one out. I occasionally take a sublingual methylcobamin (I get those from the Us too)..but it always has a negative effect,..increases tingling, very wiped out, and slight colouring of palms, soles of feet. Feels a bit like capillaries getting affected somehow. But I seem to go Ok on dibencozide sublingual (that's the other b12 without the methyl bit). It's in http://www.iherb.com/coen.html . This is also a favourite of mine. Its a sublingual with all the coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 as well as B5, folate etc. I think its a good cover in case there is something I'm missing somewhere. I take these every 3 days or so..trying to make it last. (anther from the US). Doesn't provide any methyl ..and doesn't affect me negatively either. I can't say I notice a big positive either...I just take for insurance I guess.That's weird that methylcobalamin would give you that reaction, but not SAM-e, suggesting it's not the methyl... or what?
> I'm pretty sure magnesium works by overloading the system and therefore changing the equilibrium..driving out whatever was there before and replacing with magnesium. Its much the same idea as water softeners..which replace the calcium or magnesium with sodium in the water..which feels softer and washes clothes better but is bad for the heart(an unexplined huge increse in an area where they used water softening ). The calcium/mag ions in the water gets withdrawn from the water and sodium ions the filter replaces the calcium/mag. You can "recharge' the falter by reverse flushing with strong sodium chloride..putting heaps in to change the equilibrium, thus flushing out the calcium/mag and replacing by sodium again..so you can reuse it. The balance(equilibrium) changes by overloading.
> That's how magnesium works too I think..when you feel better after taking large doses.
> it seemed to work for me when I went too high in iron last year. Took heaps of magnesium for any effect..but I think it musta lowered the iron and replaced whatever with magnesium..not sure where..but it was a relief.I was reading Dr. Slagle's comments on magnesium again recently and noticed that she says,
"Excess sugar, caffeine, carbohydrates, low dietary protein, prolonged fasting, general malnutrition, chronic diarrhea, vomiting, excess zinc, vitamin D & calcium contribute to Mg deficiency. Aluminum, fluoride, & phosphate interfere with absorption." http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm
I've been routinely taking 525 mg magnesium at night, and sometimes just lately another 125 mg during the day because I've been getting cramps in my feet and legs. Which seemed odd all of a sudden as I've been ok on this dose of mg for months. I took just a little calcium (only about 40 mg) with it a couple nights and am sure I was grinding my teeth those nights because I woke up with a particular kind of headache. I haven't been this calcium sensitive lately so that was surprising. The relatively small amount of TMG I took yesterday that make me irritable seemed odd too. It all now sounds like I need more magnesium. Perhaps it is the extra Vit D. I'm going to try taking more mg.
> That's why I was once wondering why the heck you needed so much magnesium...not that I didn't believe you, just I wondered what your problem may have been. I think you thought too much calcium?
Yes, definitely. I seemed to need less the longer I took it.
> >
In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
> >
> > "The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11896744&dopt=Abstract> >
> > I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
>
>
> me either :-)) Like I said back in the pold posts..I still don't get this methylation stuff :-)It sounds like taurine, glucosamine and MSM are sulfur which can be used to increase synthesis of SAM-e, which is not the same thing even as a precursor. When you took SAM-e then, it was a unique experience. I think I would definitely try the TMG.
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 11:39:44
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
> I know NO is a good guy . I just thought maybe there is a point where you can have too much? Guess I don't see the diff between free NO and NO. (although I understand free and bound etc)
Rather than too much, think "escaped". NO has a certain physical chemistry. It is highly reactive, something you want from a signalling chemical. It can however, react with other signalling molecules, to form RNS (reactive nitrogen species, analogous to ROS, reactive oxygen species). The high reactivity of RNS causes an organism to develop and maintain specific RNS-reactive molecules (pretty much similar molecules to the antioxidants....some do both) in the vicinity. The signal gets out, but if something bad happens, then the RNS is quenched thereafter. The antioxidants destroy the RNS (destroying the antioxidant too, but it is a sacrificial molecule in the first place).
A moderate release of NO is good. Too little is bad, and too much is bad. Too much usually mean some gets involved with those reactive oxygen species, forming RNS.
If NO diffuses to mitochondria, for example, it can react with superoxide anion to form peroxynitrite, a metastable compound. Metastability means it has a prolonged half-life relative to its reactivity. It's like a mouse trap after it's set. There is a high likelihood of something happening, but if and only if the metastable state is disturbed. A tiny jiggle of the bait in the mousetrap disturbs the metastable state (it could sit that way forever otherwise), and SNAP!, a whole bunch of potential energy is released.
Peroxynitrite goes SNAP!, metaphorically, after being able to travel away from its site of synthesis (defective mitochondria) because of its metastable state. When it "snaps" though, it does major oxidative damage to cell membranes, enzymes, DNA.....whatever happens to be around.
Its when the "fences go down", when RNS escapes its natural boundaries (the antioxidants that would have destroyed it before it got free), that NO's reactivity then becomes a liability (via RNS).
> I remember there is INOs and ENOs(endothelial) too ?
> At least I now iknow th worite NO in all caps, grin.Little letters, usually. iNOS (inducible nitric oxide synthase); eNOS (endothelial nitric oxide synthase); and another, nNOS (neurological nitric oxide synthase). Just to add confusion, the latter two are sometimes considered together as cNOS (constitutive nitric oxide synthase), and the latter one alone is sometimes called bNOS (brain nitric oxide synthase).
I bet there are other confusing acronyms, as well.
However, here is an excellent overview of nitric oxide activity/function etc., at least in so far as it affects respiratory function.
http://www.lumc.nl/1070/research/Algemeen/pdf/784.pdf
> http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html
> >
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...And, please accept my sincere apology for not being around to hear the answer.
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.I know that exact place. I think it is my "normal".
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
Can you/will you get more?
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.I have decided that some of the things I do are like putting in a new well beside one that has gone dry. I might get more water than before I put in the new well, but soon enough, the very same things that caused the old well to go dry also make the new well go dry.
Many of the things I've tried just seem to end up being new ways of using up the old depleted me.
Or....
I just get frustrated and try to do too much and I overwhelm the benefit I was getting, and I seem to "go dry" again.
In any case, I'm better and better, as time goes on. It's a bumpy road I'm on, but I am getting on.
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> JanSAMe is an intermediate. Whenever you take an intermediate, you run the risk of downregulating something that is sensitive to the concentration of the intermediate. I'm not saying that's what happened. Maybe you exhausted yourself because your improved state of mind did not extend to bodily function? Maybe you body just couldn't keep up? You overdid it, somehow?
I'm sorry it's so hard to be well, Jan. It sucks when you can't depend on a stable degree of health. I know that struggle too well.
The best advice I have is not to fight off the need for rest, when you feel that need come on. That's what really sets me back, when I go on by stubborn effort, rather than from resiliency. I pay for stubbornness 10-fold.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 12:27:14
In reply to RE: SAMe, TMG, magnesium » tealady, posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 17:50:23
> I sure don't know. I thought that people there were suggesting that TMG is equivalent to SAM-e, so I thought if SAM-e helped you then that may too. BUT, there was also something there that had me thinking that if I wanted to duplicate SAM-e I should take methionine AND TMG.
TMG is a promoter of methionine formation from homocysteine. Taking methionine also would be redundant.
Either methionine or TMG would promote natural formation of SAMe, if and only if, the liver enzyme that does this job is up to the task. It could be defective. Or down-regulated for some reason. Or, you may be deficient in the coenzymes required to perform that synthesis.
In most people, TMG kills two birds with one stone. It restores the normal recycling of SAMe back to methionine via homocysteine, and, it reduces homocysteine concentrations that can cause circulatory damage and influence inflammatory responses.
The sulphur cycle has to function normally to maintain the supply of the materials needed for the trans-sulfuration pathway that terminates in taurine (via cysteine). It is my belief that depressed people suffer not only from SAMe-related problems, but also from taurine/cysteine deficiency-related problems.
> > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
>
> From what I remember about Larry's posts on the subject, that is not much taurine.No, it is not much taurine. Hardly enough to notice, IMHO, if you notice at all.
> > So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
> > I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
>
> I don't think MSM is actually a methyl donor. Neither are glucosamine and taurine, are they?Don't see them on Sahelian's page on methyl donors: http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.htmlNo, none of those is a methyl donor. They share one characteristic: sulphur.
> It sounds like taurine, glucosamine and MSM are sulfur which can be used to increase synthesis of SAM-e, which is not the same thing even as a precursor.
I can't see any of those increasing SAMe in any way.
> When you took SAM-e then, it was a unique experience. I think I would definitely try the TMG.
>
> JLHere's a good review of the various essential sulphur compounds:
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/1/22.pdf
If that page won't open, go to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11896744&query_hl=22
Just click on the button under the journal title.
The thing is, sulphur loves to oxidize. I think of depression as being characterized by excessive oxidation (oxidative stress). That's why antioxidants (e.g. polyphenols) and vitamins can have such effects as they do. That's why we need fish oil....our long chain PUFAs have been burned up (oxidized) long ago.Sulphur compounds are easy targets for oxidation. But sulphur bridges (or disulphide bonds across cystine residues) are essential for enzyme structure. Reactive sulphur aminos are in many enzyme active sites. Many antioxidants depend directly on sulphur activity (e.g. glutathione). Liver health depends on sulphur supply. Oxidation wrecks all this.
I think that sulphur supplementation is a good thing. It's in finding the balance.....too much too quickly makes you feel yucky, IMHO.
Perhaps a better angle is to unblock an internal logjam, i.e. homocysteine to methionine. TMG does that. B12 and folate do that together. A little cysteine (NAC) or taurine to smoothe out the load.
Hard to get it right, but really worth a try, IMHO.
Maybe a long-term SAMe supp is the answer for some.
Lar
Posted by tealady on May 23, 2005, at 7:02:10
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 11:39:44
Hey Lar,
thanks for that. I'll get back to ya when I'm feeling less tired and overwhelmed :-) ..been sleeping most of the time lately.
Felt my adrenals were getting a bit too pushed so stopped the B vits, especially B5 (twas taking 1/2 tablet(125mg?) a day on top of B vits) and DHEA (only 7.5mcg every couple of days) for cholesterol ..then realised it may be pushing my adrenals too far as my skin was thinning and beginning to bruise etc.
Also dropped taurine as I thought maybe it was increasing thirst...can do this maybe from research I think, and it didn't have any great effect on me.
Not sure if you've had a chance to look at this one in ths thread
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050414/msgs/494956.htmlI know before I was confused between sulfation and methylation...I seem OK on the sulphation I suspect(although sulpha drugs never agree with me or my Dad a lot..if that is related at all), but I suspect maybe somethings up with the methylation due to my previous reaction to B12(methylcobalamnin only..not the adenosylcobalamin sp?), and ,maybe the dental anesthetic as well. I was hoping maybe to figure out one day where in that loop could be a problem that is overcome by taking SAMe.
..when I get the time and energy to find it again :-)
and of course if anything occurs to you (or anyone) about any enzyme or point in the pathway..it's like the methyl builds up ..thing of PKU analogy? , although only a (probably small)possibility though.
Your thoughts on the possible downregulation of something sensitive to SAMe make a lot of sense too. I didn't think of that...although I thought the tapering off might have allowed for it better than occurred:(-It sucks when you can't depend on a stable degree of health. I know that struggle too well.
Yeah..and it's so little before I reach my threshold too. I'm not up to "doing the experiment any more" either :-)BTW did you ever consider law as a career option..like arguing environmental-toxicological type cases for the people affected? Something where you can use your present training as well..just seems like something you'd enjoy and excel at. although I guess one needs some strength etc too.
Jan
Posted by JLx on May 24, 2005, at 22:53:57
In reply to RE: sulphur metabolism » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 12:27:14
> > I sure don't know. I thought that people there were suggesting that TMG is equivalent to SAM-e, so I thought if SAM-e helped you then that may too. BUT, there was also something there that had me thinking that if I wanted to duplicate SAM-e I should take methionine AND TMG.
>
> TMG is a promoter of methionine formation from homocysteine. Taking methionine also would be redundant.Yes, I can see how it could be. But, in that previous discussion http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278173.html which was about how a person might be a slow cycler of SAM-e, quoting Dr. Walsh, http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshQZ.htm#Ta
"In addition, persons who are undermethylated have a SAM cycle which is "spinning very slowly", much like a superhighway with little traffic. The answer for them is NOT to more efficiently convert the small amount of homocysteine to methionine (using TMG), but rather to directly introduce more methionine or SAMe into the body."
You said,
"It depends on why it's spinning slowly. If it's because of hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine, a risk factor for heart attack, more common in depressives), then the slow SAMe might be caused by poor recycling of homocysteine. There's a blood test for homocysteine.
Your body recycles homocysteine to methionine because dietary sources of methionine may be unreliable (in an historical sense, in evolutionary history). If that cycle gets stalled at homocysteine, only dietary supply can give you methionine. Moreover, homocysteine is doing damage that places even more burden on SAMe. It can set up a vicious cycle. If you think of homocysteine as the basic raw material, which is then methylated (to methionine), then adenosinated (to SAMe), it makes sense to have most of that core stuff already to use, rather than used up. That's just my way of looking at it."
I said,
"I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
You said,
"Yes. Good idea."
So, what do you think now?
I'm really intrigued with this methylation stuff, especially given the homocysteine/heart disease/depression connection. In that last discussion I was trying to sort out what Dr. Walsh said about folate, which you seemed to agree was contradictory to some of his other comments.
Since then, this past winter, when I wasn't taking TMG, MSM or methionine, I felt a good effect from folic acid, 800 mg/day, I thought. I wasn't taking methylcobalamin either. At least now I know that folate doesn't bother me, so whatever Walsh was saying there, I don't think I have to worry about it.
Of these things:
TMG
METHYLCOBALAMIN
FOLATE
METHIONINEwhat is the best combination to duplicate SAM-e (which I had good effect from in the past for about 2 months) AND prevent homocysteine buildup?
Is there a way of knowing when one might become OVERmethylated?
And how about MSM and taurine? Choline?
The pdf file you gave me says, "There is a metabolic relationship between methionine and MSM." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582816
And also,
"Sulfur containing compounds include methionine, cysteine, taurine, thiamin, biotin, alpha lipoic acid, glucosamine sulfate. They're all synthesized from methionine except thiamin and biotin."
Is it advisable to supplement with thiamin and biotin, or not?
This is interesting considering Louise Gittlelman's advice to women about excess copper and depression:
"Excessive copper ingestion impairs sulfur containing amino acids and increases the dietary requirement for SAA as well."
> Either methionine or TMG would promote natural formation of SAMe, if and only if, the liver enzyme that does this job is up to the task. It could be defective. Or down-regulated for some reason. Or, you may be deficient in the coenzymes required to perform that synthesis.
>
> In most people, TMG kills two birds with one stone. It restores the normal recycling of SAMe back to methionine via homocysteine, and, it reduces homocysteine concentrations that can cause circulatory damage and influence inflammatory responses.
>
> The sulphur cycle has to function normally to maintain the supply of the materials needed for the trans-sulfuration pathway that terminates in taurine (via cysteine). It is my belief that depressed people suffer not only from SAMe-related problems, but also from taurine/cysteine deficiency-related problems.
>
> > > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
> >
> > From what I remember about Larry's posts on the subject, that is not much taurine.
>
> No, it is not much taurine. Hardly enough to notice, IMHO, if you notice at all.
>
> > > So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
> > > I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
> >
> > I don't think MSM is actually a methyl donor. Neither are glucosamine and taurine, are they?Don't see them on Sahelian's page on methyl donors: http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.html
>
> No, none of those is a methyl donor. They share one characteristic: sulphur.
>
> > It sounds like taurine, glucosamine and MSM are sulfur which can be used to increase synthesis of SAM-e, which is not the same thing even as a precursor.
>
> I can't see any of those increasing SAMe in any way.> > When you took SAM-e then, it was a unique experience. I think I would definitely try the TMG.
> >
> > JL
>
> Here's a good review of the various essential sulphur compounds:
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/1/22.pdf
>
> If that page won't open, go to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11896744&query_hl=22
>
> Just click on the button under the journal title.
>
>
> The thing is, sulphur loves to oxidize. I think of depression as being characterized by excessive oxidation (oxidative stress). That's why antioxidants (e.g. polyphenols) and vitamins can have such effects as they do. That's why we need fish oil....our long chain PUFAs have been burned up (oxidized) long ago.
>
> Sulphur compounds are easy targets for oxidation. But sulphur bridges (or disulphide bonds across cystine residues) are essential for enzyme structure. Reactive sulphur aminos are in many enzyme active sites. Many antioxidants depend directly on sulphur activity (e.g. glutathione). Liver health depends on sulphur supply. Oxidation wrecks all this.
>
> I think that sulphur supplementation is a good thing. It's in finding the balance.....too much too quickly makes you feel yucky, IMHO.
>
> Perhaps a better angle is to unblock an internal logjam, i.e. homocysteine to methionine. TMG does that. B12 and folate do that together. A little cysteine (NAC) or taurine to smoothe out the load.
>
> Hard to get it right, but really worth a try, IMHO.
>
> Maybe a long-term SAMe supp is the answer for some.
>
> LarSAM-e is too expensive for me to experiment much with. It did help me in the past but then so did TMG. And I like the way MSM feels too. I'm not so sure about methylcobalamin.
What did you mean by too much sulfur makes you feel yucky? And for what reason?
When I was taking SAM-e, I noticed I didn't have my former craving for eggs.
Is it possible to get over-antioxidented? I noticed that article said something about MSM being a free radical scavenger, so that seems like another good reason to take it.
I'd really like to sort this out into some kind of plan as to what to try in what combinations. I haven't been very systematic about it in the past, and now don't even remember what I'd tried before either. So I kind of feel like I'm starting from scratch. And as usual, not very patient about trying just *one* thing at a time. :)
Actually right now I am also trying NADH for the first time. I'm taking 5 mg, 3 days now. The first day I didn't even feel it. Yesterday, I felt more anxious about an hour after I took it. Today, it's hard to say as I've had a lot of things on my mind. I don't feel the energy boost though, unfortunately. I was hoping to be speeding around my house cleaning by now. Now THAT would really be something! :)
JL
Posted by tealady on May 25, 2005, at 6:48:28
In reply to RE: sulphur metabolism » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on May 24, 2005, at 22:53:57
Hi JLx,
I'm feeling really wiped still..been sleeping most of the time I can, so unfortunately I can't function enough to contribute much here. Even went to the wrong car park for the car this afternoon. Well I guess I can find the car parks at least:-)
I've been upping the T4 in my thyroid meds..so far I've added 100mcgT4 keeping the rest the same, and so far my FT4 has not budged off near bottom? Really wierd...but explains the lack of a brain which functions :-) Even got the chemist to order a new supply...still not working.re the folate though. I remember that was strange in me too. I tested (red cell folate) above normal range without any supplementation., beats me. Maybe I don't utilize folate properly somehow?
Also my Mum tested even higher for red cell folate without ever taking any supps. She also gets that blue palms/soles from B12 needles (hydroxycobalamin, which converts to both methyl and adenosylcobamain I think) but not to the same extent as much..a lot less.
Looks like I'm different to you though..but it seems to all be linked in there somehow?BTW the SAMe I liked was Natrol SAMe Joint formula which contained MSM and Glucosamine as well..enteric coated and 1 daily gave 400mg SAMe.
http://www.iherb.com/samejoint.html ..looks like they have changed the fillers but mostly the sameI only bought one box (cost as well) , BUT I do highly recommend them as working, at least on that trial. I think I mentioned in previous post that MSM and Glucosamine had little effect on me and I had just tried them before this tablet...so I know it was the SAMe, although maybe it was helped by the rest?
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2005, at 7:50:51
In reply to RE: sulphur metabolism » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on May 24, 2005, at 22:53:57
My, my, you do keep me on my toes.
:-)
> I said,
>
> "I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
>
> You said,
>
> "Yes. Good idea."
>
> So, what do you think now?
I'm going to contradict myself. Sort of.It really doesn't make one bit of difference where the methionine comes from. It simply must be present in the liver for SAMe to be created. If you are having some trouble forming SAMe despite adequate methionine, then increasing methionine will be of no effect. In contrast, if SAMe output is low because of poor recycling of homocysteine to methionine, then increasing that rate with TMG and/or B12 and folate *might* be sufficient to optimize methionine recycling, and thus SAMe output.
I cannot recall for certain exactly what I meant, but I suspect I was speaking to the "foolproof" argument about methionine supply. What if a person does not have a homocysteine backlog (where the cycle usually stalls in depression)? Optimizing homocysteine recycling will have little effect. Then, only dietary intake will solve the methionine deficiency.
So, in summary, if SAMe output is low despite adequate methionine, SAMe supps might be a good idea. (What makes SAMe output low is a separate issue, involving (probably) mitochondrial dysfunction.) If high homocysteine is the problem (stalled recycling), then SAMe supps are contraindicated (they'll simply make homocysteine worse). In that case, increasing remethylation with TMG and/or B12-folate solves the problem. If and only if methionine is deficient despite proper remethylation is methionine supplementation formally indicated.
Like I said, I suspect I was giving you the foolproof "increase the methionine without doubt" answer.
>
> I'm really intrigued with this methylation stuff, especially given the homocysteine/heart disease/depression connection. In that last discussion I was trying to sort out what Dr. Walsh said about folate, which you seemed to agree was contradictory to some of his other comments.
>
> Since then, this past winter, when I wasn't taking TMG, MSM or methionine, I felt a good effect from folic acid, 800 mg/day, I thought. I wasn't taking methylcobalamin either. At least now I know that folate doesn't bother me, so whatever Walsh was saying there, I don't think I have to worry about it.Your liver stores vast amounts of B12. It is believed the average person stores 5 years' worth. I would dispute that, as the liver just doesn't suddenly run out. All B12 dependent rates decline as the reserves decline.....
> Of these things:
>
> TMG
> METHYLCOBALAMIN
> FOLATE
> METHIONINE
>
> what is the best combination to duplicate SAM-e (which I had good effect from in the past for about 2 months) AND prevent homocysteine buildup?Methionine is not the answer, if you are concerned with homocysteine increases. Same goes with SAMe. What you want is enhanced recycling. There are two distinct recycling processes. The "standard" one, the one doctors believe is virtually foolproof (despite the cases of hyperhomocyteinemia they see all the time) is the B12-folate pathway. That one needs both nutrients in a 1:1 ratio (not intake, available). A distinct inducible mechanism (kind of like a reserve capacity that can be brought on line) requires TMG. So, my answer involves three of the four nutrients listed. No methionine (unless the other interventions fail).
> Is there a way of knowing when one might become OVERmethylated?I have reservations about that diagnostic category's existence. Rather than being overmethylated, I would characterize the syndrome as being differently malnourished. The body needs balancing, but I don't see the solution as suppressing methylation. It would be to bring the other processes up to a balanced capacity.
> And how about MSM and taurine? Choline?
>
> The pdf file you gave me says, "There is a metabolic relationship between methionine and MSM." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582816
>
> And also,
>
> "Sulfur containing compounds include methionine, cysteine, taurine, thiamin, biotin, alpha lipoic acid, glucosamine sulfate. They're all synthesized from methionine except thiamin and biotin."I think it is a gross oversimplification to say that e.g. taurine is synthesized from methionine. It is true, but there are 8 (?) intermediates. I've been simplifying things myself. Cysteine comes from homocysteine (alternate pathway to the one that makes methionine). Taurine comes from cysteine. All kinds of enzymes and hormones require cysteine (insulin, for example). Sulphur metabolism is complex.
There is an excellent diagram here:
http://www.bbriefings.com/pdf/26/ept032_t_axis.pdfThe first two also have diagrams, but the third is specific to depression:
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/meth1-4.html
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/homo2-4.html
http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/69/2/228> Is it advisable to supplement with thiamin and biotin, or not?
Yes, and yes. Thiamine is B1. It is certainly an essential nutrient. Biotin is considered to be conditionally essential, but I wouldn't want to assume that I'm in the condition where it isn't essential.
> This is interesting considering Louise Gittlelman's advice to women about excess copper and depression:
>
> "Excessive copper ingestion impairs sulfur containing amino acids and increases the dietary requirement for SAA as well."Far far worse is mercury. Mercury is toxic precisely because of what it does to sulphur. It loves sulphur. It can't get enough sulphur. If you want to protect sulphur from mercury's rapacious appetite, you need selenium.
I've looked a lot at copper, and although it is essential, and it can easily become toxic, I doubt very many people are deficient. Zinc is a pretty good regulator of copper. Zinc deficiency exacerbates any effects of copper.
> > Here's a good review of the various essential sulphur compounds:
> >
> > http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/1/22.pdfEmphasizing again.....this reference covers supplemental sulphur specifically.
> > The thing is, sulphur loves to oxidize. I think of depression as being characterized by excessive oxidation (oxidative stress). That's why antioxidants (e.g. polyphenols) and vitamins can have such effects as they do. That's why we need fish oil....our long chain PUFAs have been burned up (oxidized) long ago.
> >
> > Sulphur compounds are easy targets for oxidation. But sulphur bridges (or disulphide bonds across cystine residues) are essential for enzyme structure. Reactive sulphur aminos are in many enzyme active sites. Many antioxidants depend directly on sulphur activity (e.g. glutathione). Liver health depends on sulphur supply. Oxidation wrecks all this.
> >
> > I think that sulphur supplementation is a good thing. It's in finding the balance.....too much too quickly makes you feel yucky, IMHO.
> >
> > Perhaps a better angle is to unblock an internal logjam, i.e. homocysteine to methionine. TMG does that. B12 and folate do that together. A little cysteine (NAC) or taurine to smoothe out the load.
> >
> > Hard to get it right, but really worth a try, IMHO.
> >
> > Maybe a long-term SAMe supp is the answer for some.
> >
> > Lar
>
> SAM-e is too expensive for me to experiment much with. It did help me in the past but then so did TMG. And I like the way MSM feels too. I'm not so sure about methylcobalamin.It is possible that TMG does other things than just to enhance homocysteine recycling. If instead of losing a methyl group to homocysteine, it gains a methyl group, it has become choline.
> What did you mean by too much sulfur makes you feel yucky? And for what reason?
Overdoing sulphur intake can make you feel sick. That goes for any sulphur substance (I think). I'm not sure why (I've never looked at it). It's just pretty good feedback that you've exceeded your capacity for using whatever it is you're taking.
> When I was taking SAM-e, I noticed I didn't have my former craving for eggs.Interesting. I believe in cravings, as a message. I'm not sure what this one indicates, though.
> Is it possible to get over-antioxidented? I noticed that article said something about MSM being a free radical scavenger, so that seems like another good reason to take it.
No, I don't think you can become over-antioxidanted. Not without overdosing on a specific one, anyway. And I would call that a toxic effect, in any case.
> I'd really like to sort this out into some kind of plan as to what to try in what combinations. I haven't been very systematic about it in the past, and now don't even remember what I'd tried before either. So I kind of feel like I'm starting from scratch. And as usual, not very patient about trying just *one* thing at a time. :)Shortcuts give you less information. I know you know that. Sorry, no magic.
> Actually right now I am also trying NADH for the first time. I'm taking 5 mg, 3 days now. The first day I didn't even feel it. Yesterday, I felt more anxious about an hour after I took it. Today, it's hard to say as I've had a lot of things on my mind. I don't feel the energy boost though, unfortunately. I was hoping to be speeding around my house cleaning by now. Now THAT would really be something! :)
>
> JLIn my readings about NADH, it seems there are two reactions. One is immediate (I know I get a buzz the day I use it). The literature, however, says it takes a couple of weeks to reach a stable level, and *that's* when the energy benefit comes.
I dunno. I get irritable after a few weeks on it.
NADH with TMG was Ron Hill's and my favourite. They seemed to be synergistic, rather than additive.
Lar
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