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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:17:47
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 17:49:58
Thanks so much Larry. I think I'll try it. Years ago I remember taking niacin[don't remember why] and it made me red around the face and neck. I later learned that this side effect didn't occur with niacinamide. I don't even know what the niacin was supposed to be good for. I didn't take it long. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 19:06:15
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:17:47
> Thanks so much Larry. I think I'll try it. Years ago I remember taking niacin[don't remember why] and it made me red around the face and neck. I later learned that this side effect didn't occur with niacinamide. I don't even know what the niacin was supposed to be good for. I didn't take it long. Fondly, Phillipa
The niacin flush is histaminic activity in dermal tissue....it also occurs internally, to some extent.
Niacinamide actually has a diametrically opposite effect; it inhibits mast cell degranulation, which is the process of histamine release. Therefore, niacinamide makes a good augment for hayfever treatment, and asthma, too. It also encourages joint health, and may be useful in osteoarthritis.
High dose niacin is sometimes used to treat high triglycerides, high cholesterol, and atherosclerosis. Despite the fact that blood sugar actually increases under high-dose niacin, the amount of hemoglobin A1C (a measure of cumulative blood sugar exposure) actually decreases over time.....suggesting modulation of insulin responsivity.
Lar
Posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 19:06:15
Thats interesting. I have never heard it would inhibit mast cell "degranulation". I think that could be useful especially for me in the spring. But perhaps it could sensibilize (through IgE globulins) your immunsystem once you stop the niacinamide. If you take a not cardioselecive betablocker you should be cautious not to have inflammation and therefore spastic constriction of the bronchioli.
Posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 16:06:11
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
I would not say niacin does not have any effect on gaba receptors. All depends about the affinity or in some cases avidity (ligands to receptors) but also the dosage of every substance you take.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:14:43
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
> Thats interesting. I have never heard it would inhibit mast cell "degranulation". I think that could be useful especially for me in the spring. But perhaps it could sensibilize (through IgE globulins) your immunsystem once you stop the niacinamide. If you take a not cardioselecive betablocker you should be cautious not to have inflammation and therefore spastic constriction of the bronchioli.
It's a direct, receptor-stabilizing inhibitory effect. Niacinamide "raises the threshold" for mast cell histamine release. All the relevant research was done in Eastern Europe, during the Cold War. They had a totally different philosophy over there. E.g., Picamilon is a result of the research into niacinamide modulating the GABA(A) receptor. Anyway, here are some suggestive titles of papers in the Pubmed archives....no abstracts (though I've found bits of the contents, in other places).
Lar
Chyrek-Borowska S, Gruszecka M, Hofman J.
[Combined treatment with hypostamine and nicotinamide of allergic reactions and asthma]
Pol Tyg Lek. 1978 Jan 16;33(3):107-8.Bekier E, Maslinski C.
Antihistaminic action of nicotinamide.
Agents Actions. 1974 Aug;4(3):196.Bekier E, Wyczolkowska J, Szyc H, Maslinski C.
The inhibitory effect of nicotinamide on asthma-like symptoms and eosinophilia in guinea pigs, anaphylactic mast cell degranulation in mice, and histamine release from rat isolated peritoneal mast cells by compound 48-80.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1974;47(5):737-48.Bekier E, Czerwinska U.
The effect of nicotinamide on the experimental asthma in guinea pigs.
Acta Physiol Pol. 1973 Nov-Dec;24(6):887-9.Bekier E, Szyc H, Czerwinska U, Maslinski C.
The influence of nicotinamide on the course of experimental bronchial asthma in guinea pig.
Agents Actions. 1973 Oct;3(3):176.Czezowska Z, Kowal-Gierczak B, Wrzyszcz M.
The effect of nicotinamide on the urinary 17-hydroxysteroid excretion in patients with allergic bronchial asthma.
Pol Med J. 1971;10(1):42-6.Wyczolkowska J, Maslinski C.
Inhibition by nicotinamide of an homologous PCA reaction and antigen-induced histamine release from rat peritoneal mast cells.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1975;49(3):285-92.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 16:06:11
> I would not say niacin does not have any effect on gaba receptors. All depends about the affinity or in some cases avidity (ligands to receptors) but also the dosage of every substance you take.
Niacinamide and NAD both have binding affinity for GABA(A) receptors. Both change the conformation of the receptor itself, making it more sensitive to GABA. Niacinamide is a (mild) partial agonist, and I believe NAD is, as well.
As niacinamide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, it can serve acutely as an anxiolytic. Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin.
Over in Eastern Europe, it's taken as a fact that niacinamide is anxiolytic. Again, there are earlier publications with no abstracts, but here's a fairly recent one that sums up their belief in these effects.....
Biull Eksp Biol Med. 1993 May;115(5):487-91.
[Psychoregulating role of nicotinamide]
[Article in Russian]
Akhundov RA, Sultanov AA, Gadzhily RA, Sadykhov RV.
In the experiment and clinics, psychotropic effect of nicotinamide (tranquilized and nootropic activity) has been established. It has been shown that nicotinamide in conflict situation has anxiolytic effect, increase aggressive reaction threshold, decrease the quantity of induced fights during interspecies' incompatibility modelling.
Best,
Lar
Posted by sdb on April 27, 2005, at 10:01:12
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
Hi!
Thank you Lar for your knowledge.
Somebody who worked with the inventor of diazepam (who was picked up during world war II) told me:
Young boy you may have the faster brain than i have but I have a lot of life experience.
We have synthesized many thousand substances in the laboratory and many of them we have taken ourself to look what it does.
So I have learnt to listen carefully to people with life experience and to people with a lot of knowledge you can only obtain by time.
Relating to this forum I like to share the "applied" knowledge (linked to drugs), I like to feel connected and I like to hear to people who can tell something.
Regards
sdb
Posted by cache-monkey on May 7, 2005, at 17:40:25
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
Hi Larry,
I've been on benzos for the last couple of months. I've found that they really haven't done enough for my anxiety. They've been more sedating and depressiogenic than anxiolytic. I've been recently on Ativan and could feel it wearing off between doses. My pdoc wants me to discontinue, and I've been trying to work my way down from 3 mg.
I've been playing around with niacinamide since I heard about it on this board. I've noticed that in terms of my anxiety, nicanimide is far better than any of the benzos I've tried. I had been hoping to use it to withdraw from Ativan (I've seen reference to a study backing this idea) or perhaps switch over to it as a regular anxiolytic.
But, based on what you wrote here, I'm wondering if that leaves me with the same tolerance problem as with the benzos. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Also, do you happen to know the half-life of niacinamide? (If it's pretty short and the tolerance problem holds, then using it to taper probably isn't a great idea.)
Thanks,
cache-monkey<< Niacinamide and NAD both have binding affinity for GABA(A) receptors. Both change the conformation of the receptor itself, making it more sensitive to GABA. Niacinamide is a (mild) partial agonist, and I believe NAD is, as well.
As niacinamide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, it can serve acutely as an anxiolytic. Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin. >>
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:02:34
In reply to Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » Larry Hoover, posted by cache-monkey on May 7, 2005, at 17:40:25
Hi CM
How much niacinamide were you taking? I'd like to use it to at least moderate my Valium use.
Declan
Posted by cache-monkey on May 8, 2005, at 14:55:41
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:02:34
Hey Declan,
Right now I'll take an occasional 250 mg tab. If I'm really anxious, though, that only seems to last for about 4 hours or so...
If that's the effective half-life and it hits the same receptors as valium (*) you might be better off with the valium. Especially if the goal is to withdraw/taper. (* I'm not sure about either "if", hence the last post.)
I'm hoping Larry chimes in again to clarify...
Good luck,
cache-monkey
> Hi CM
> How much niacinamide were you taking? I'd like to use it to at least moderate my Valium use.
> Declan
Posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » Declan, posted by cache-monkey on May 8, 2005, at 14:55:41
I think that Larry told me to take between l00mg and 500mg. But don't quote me on that. I too take valium. How much do you take? Do you think it works? I'm still unable to work and scared to be alone. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 19:31:58
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » cache-monkey, posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
Hi Phillipa
I take 7.5mg at the moment. Perhaps if I take say 1000mg niacinamide/d I could take a little less. You mean does the Valium still work? Well yes, but I think it makes things worse in the long run. When I took lots I ended up agoraphobic, I guess you might say. Now I just have common or garden anhedonia. Just finishing The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon, nice to have a good book.
Declan
Posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 19:53:36
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 19:31:58
I must really be an addict. I take l5mg total a day and don't feel a thing. When I took it years ago 5mg allowed me to go out and do anything I wanted and feel great. That doesn't help anymore. I don't know what to think. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 1:16:11
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » cache-monkey, posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
Hi Phillipa,
I'm actually not taking valium anymore, since I found it too sedating/depressing. When I did, I was on about 8 mg/day spread out. I switched to Ativan at 3 mg/day and now my pdoc wants me to withdraw completely.
He thinks the benzos are making me worse off. Maybe so, maybe not. I think it's more likely the Depakote, but I'm getting worried about tolerance/dependence issues. I'm actually starting Seroquel to deal with my bipolar-ish anxiety and depression and to help me wean off the benzos. (For weaning purposes, I'm going through Klonopin b/c of the longer half-life.)
As far as the niacinamide, I take 250 mg once or twice a day. It seems to help, but not for very long. And I'm worried that since it hits the same receptors as the benzos it might not be such a good thing to use while tapering.
Not sure if this really answers your question, though. In your case, my concern would be that if you've acclimatized to valium, you might also acclimatize to niacinamide. It might be better to use PRN for situational anxiety rather than as a regular anxiolytic.
Have you tried other traditional meds for anxiety? E.g. Seroquel, the SSRIs and/or MAOIs?
Best,
cache-monkey<< I think that Larry told me to take between l00mg and 500mg. But don't quote me on that. I too take valium. How much do you take? Do you think it works? I'm still unable to work and scared to be alone. Fondly, Phillipa >>
Posted by Declan on May 9, 2005, at 1:35:34
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 1:16:11
Hi CM
I thought the fact that niacinamide hits the same receptors as benzos *is* the reason it would be useful when tapering. And if you ended up just as addicted/dependant? Its hard to imagine, if only because its going to be less effective. Once I discontinued 1600mg/d SAMe and had a noticeable withdrawal type feeling, but I'm sure it was nothing like wd from SSRIs. Not the same, but still....
Declan
Posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 14:06:16
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 9, 2005, at 1:35:34
Hey Declan,
Hmm. I had figured that part of the process of tapering a benzo is allowing your GABA-A receptors to go back to normal somehow. I.e. chronic benzo use down-regulates that receptors. The fact that they up-regulate slowly after cutting back on the benzo leads to the withdrawal symptoms.
Since niacinamide acts like a benzo at the receptors, I'd imagine it a) provides temporary relief from the symptoms, but b) slows down the process of up-regulation further.
Just my thinking on it...
~cache-monkey
> Hi CM
> I thought the fact that niacinamide hits the same receptors as benzos *is* the reason it would be useful when tapering. And if you ended up just as addicted/dependant? Its hard to imagine, if only because its going to be less effective. Once I discontinued 1600mg/d SAMe and had a noticeable withdrawal type feeling, but I'm sure it was nothing like wd from SSRIs. Not the same, but still....
> Declan
Posted by Declan on May 9, 2005, at 15:06:11
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 14:06:16
Yeah Hi CM, that'd be right but if you are having *difficulty* reducing benzo use this might substitute to some small extent. Last night I took an extra 500mg niacinamide and took 2.5mg Valium less, and was OK till this morning.
Declan
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 12, 2005, at 14:01:36
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:02:34
In the product I'm trying to bring to market, we're going to--if we can make it affordable--use skullcap 90% wogonin extract as the BZD agonist. Look up wogonin on pubmed, it's pretty impressive.
If you can get magnolia extract with a high % of magnolol/honokiol, you could use that to moderate your valium use, especially if it is combined with phenibut and/or gastrodia tuber extract.
Posted by sdb on May 14, 2005, at 18:05:24
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdra » Declan, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 12, 2005, at 14:01:36
I have never taken niacinamide thus I have ordered 1500mg slow release niacinamide (source naturals product delivered by vitasprings) in the US to see what it does. I did not arrive yet.
In our country politicians are not lucky with alternatives because of the very big "chemical" pharma industrie we have. Poorly, no niacinamide is available and pharmacy prices can be up to 60% higher for alternatives (but not for "chemicals") than in the US. It is a great pity.
Is here somebody, who has thaken niacinamide and did not build up any tolerance?
Best wishes
sdb
Posted by joebob on May 14, 2005, at 20:26:03
In reply to Is here somebody, who did not build up tolerance?, posted by sdb on May 14, 2005, at 18:05:24
Posted by Declan on May 15, 2005, at 0:07:07
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdra » Declan, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 12, 2005, at 14:01:36
Is woganin from baicall skullcap? I wasn't aware BS was sedative, though I've taken it for ages for allergies. The products sound good.
Declan
Posted by sdb on May 15, 2005, at 1:08:20
In reply to what country are you in? (nm) » sdb, posted by joebob on May 14, 2005, at 20:26:03
[xxx]
Posted by sdb on May 15, 2005, at 5:00:01
In reply to Is here somebody, who did not build up tolerance?, posted by sdb on May 14, 2005, at 18:05:24
I do not know anything about binding properties of niacinamide on GABA-receptors. But if niacinamide would have some combined agonist-antagonist properties it would probably not lead automatically to changes in density of GABA-receptors and therefore fast tolerance in some individuals.
Posted by Elroy on May 25, 2005, at 19:15:27
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
RE: "Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin."
What would be your recommendation - strictly theoretical - for a long term "alternative" treatment for anxiety?
Likewise, Lar, your thoughts on the following (if you wouldn't mind):
1. Kava
2. Valerian
3. Passionflower
4. Skullcap
5. Chamomile
6. St. John's Wort (*)
7. SAMe
8. Picamilon (aka Pikamilon)(*) Specifically for anxiety versus the more normal approach to depression disorder
I often see various "drug cocktails" suggested for various depression and / or anxiety disorders, but seldomly see the same recommendation for "alternative products"... or possibly cycling "alternatives" to reduce tolerance or down-regulation or whatever....
X
X
X
> > I would not say niacin does not have any effect on gaba receptors. All depends about the affinity or in some cases avidity (ligands to receptors) but also the dosage of every substance you take.
>
> Niacinamide and NAD both have binding affinity for GABA(A) receptors. Both change the conformation of the receptor itself, making it more sensitive to GABA. Niacinamide is a (mild) partial agonist, and I believe NAD is, as well.
>
> As niacinamide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, it can serve acutely as an anxiolytic. Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin.
>
> Over in Eastern Europe, it's taken as a fact that niacinamide is anxiolytic. Again, there are earlier publications with no abstracts, but here's a fairly recent one that sums up their belief in these effects.....
>
> Biull Eksp Biol Med. 1993 May;115(5):487-91.
>
> [Psychoregulating role of nicotinamide]
>
> [Article in Russian]
>
> Akhundov RA, Sultanov AA, Gadzhily RA, Sadykhov RV.
>
> In the experiment and clinics, psychotropic effect of nicotinamide (tranquilized and nootropic activity) has been established. It has been shown that nicotinamide in conflict situation has anxiolytic effect, increase aggressive reaction threshold, decrease the quantity of induced fights during interspecies' incompatibility modelling.
>
> Best,
> Lar
>
Posted by Matsuemon on September 25, 2010, at 15:16:06
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 1:16:11
Hey guys,
This thread as five years old, but I figured I'd post in case people still used it. I've read several books written by Psychiatrists who treat anxiety disorders with niacinamide and the doses they recommend are much higher than this board is talking about. Also, some of the information on this board is incorrect.
*They recommend 2000-6000 mg a day, in divided doses.
*Also, they said these doses are perfectly safe, even in children, as long as the person doesn't have a liver or kidney problem, etc. If you experience nausea, vomiting, or other GI symptoms, lower the dose by 500 or 1000 mg.
*People DO commonly use niacinamide to help ween off of benzos.
*Niacinamide is NOT usually effective for acute anxiety, and has to be taken for some time for it to be effective (although everyone is different and can respond faster). The authors say it can take up to a month for the effects to be seen.
*Niacin does NOT have the same anxiolytic properties as niacinamide because it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier or affect the GABA receptors.
Well, that's about it. I hope someone finds this info useful.
This is the end of the thread.
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