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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ElaineM on July 9, 2006, at 14:38:16
I've tried a few prescription sleeping pills (my sleep studies say I have trouble reaching delta sleep stage), all of which effected me really poorly - they aggravated the symptoms of a concurrant sleep disorder I have. My pdoc has suggested taking Tryptophan supplements, saying that some of his patients seem to have positive results. Has anyone tried this before? Any side-effect stories?
Thanks for any input.
EL
Posted by JLx on July 9, 2006, at 19:38:44
In reply to Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by ElaineM on July 9, 2006, at 14:38:16
> I've tried a few prescription sleeping pills (my sleep studies say I have trouble reaching delta sleep stage), all of which effected me really poorly - they aggravated the symptoms of a concurrant sleep disorder I have. My pdoc has suggested taking Tryptophan supplements, saying that some of his patients seem to have positive results. Has anyone tried this before? Any side-effect stories?
> Thanks for any input.
> EL
I've tried tryptophan, it did make me sleepy. It also gave me a stomach ache, but then I was using an equine version. If I tried it again, I would get human pharmaceutical grade which is more available now. But then, 5-HTP bothers my stomach too, so perhaps it's the serotonin itself for me.In the past when I had insomnia, melatonin in very small amounts would help.
For me also, not eating sugar and not drinking caffeine helps.
Using a light visor very early in the morning has helped me too in the past.
I used to have hellish problems with insomnia for many years but not since I started taking magnesium.
JL
Posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 0:47:37
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep? » ElaineM, posted by JLx on July 9, 2006, at 19:38:44
Is tryptophan still available in the US? Or do you need a special permission prescription?> > I've tried a few prescription sleeping pills (my sleep studies say I have trouble reaching delta sleep stage), all of which effected me really poorly - they aggravated the symptoms of a concurrant sleep disorder I have. My pdoc has suggested taking Tryptophan supplements, saying that some of his patients seem to have positive results. Has anyone tried this before? Any side-effect stories?
> > Thanks for any input.
> > EL
>
>
> I've tried tryptophan, it did make me sleepy. It also gave me a stomach ache, but then I was using an equine version. If I tried it again, I would get human pharmaceutical grade which is more available now. But then, 5-HTP bothers my stomach too, so perhaps it's the serotonin itself for me.
>
> In the past when I had insomnia, melatonin in very small amounts would help.
>
> For me also, not eating sugar and not drinking caffeine helps.
>
> Using a light visor very early in the morning has helped me too in the past.
>
> I used to have hellish problems with insomnia for many years but not since I started taking magnesium.
>
> JL
>
Posted by dessbee on July 10, 2006, at 7:51:21
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 0:47:37
No, but I would recommend pycnogenol 20-40 mg before bedtime.
Posted by ElaineM on July 10, 2006, at 15:27:35
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by dessbee on July 10, 2006, at 7:51:21
> No, but I would recommend pycnogenol 20-40 mg before bedtime.
>
>I can get it. It's not an equine form either. But why is not available to you? Is it dangerous?
Is pycnogenol the same thing? Is melatonin like the same thing? Sorry I'm a bit of an idiot when it comes to stuff like this.EL
Posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 17:05:53
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep? » dessbee, posted by ElaineM on July 10, 2006, at 15:27:35
I thought it was banned by the FDA in the US after someone died from a tainted batch a few years back, and they never re-approved it even after they realized what the problem really was.
> > No, but I would recommend pycnogenol 20-40 mg before bedtime.
> >
> >
>
> I can get it. It's not an equine form either. But why is not available to you? Is it dangerous?
> Is pycnogenol the same thing? Is melatonin like the same thing? Sorry I'm a bit of an idiot when it comes to stuff like this.
>
> EL
Posted by nolvas on July 10, 2006, at 17:08:44
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 17:05:53
It was banned, however it's readily available from places such as www.iherb.com in capsules and powdered forms for human consumption.
Posted by JLx on July 10, 2006, at 21:33:51
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by nolvas on July 10, 2006, at 17:08:44
> It was banned, however it's readily available from places such as www.iherb.com in capsules and powdered forms for human consumption.
See Larry's post here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060227/msgs/614222.html
Posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 9:38:10
In reply to Re: Tryptophan not banned since 1994 » nolvas, posted by JLx on July 10, 2006, at 21:33:51
What is the reason for your insomnia?
Are you depressed?
Do suffer from anxiety?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:In 1989, a large outbreak of a new, disabling, and in some cases deadly autoimmune illness called eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) was traced to L-tryptophan. The bacterial culture used to synthesize tryptophan by a major Japanese manufacturer, Showa Denko KK, had recently been genetically engineered to increase tryptophan production; with the higher tryptophan concentration in the culture medium, the purification process had also been streamlined to reduce costs, and a purification step that used charcoal absorption to remove impurities had been omitted. This allowed another bacterial metabolite through the purification, resulting in the presence of an end-product contaminant responsible for the toxic effects. The FDA was unable to establish with certainty that this was the sole cause of the outbreak. Tryptophan was banned from sale in the US, and other countries followed suit.
Posted by JLx on July 14, 2006, at 11:01:09
In reply to Re: Tryptophan not banned since 1994, posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 9:38:10
> What is the reason for your insomnia?
> Are you depressed?
> Do suffer from anxiety?Did you mean to address these questions to someone else?
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
>
> In 1989, a large outbreak of a new, disabling, and in some cases deadly autoimmune illness called eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) was traced to L-tryptophan. The bacterial culture used to synthesize tryptophan by a major Japanese manufacturer, Showa Denko KK, had recently been genetically engineered to increase tryptophan production; with the higher tryptophan concentration in the culture medium, the purification process had also been streamlined to reduce costs, and a purification step that used charcoal absorption to remove impurities had been omitted. This allowed another bacterial metabolite through the purification, resulting in the presence of an end-product contaminant responsible for the toxic effects. The FDA was unable to establish with certainty that this was the sole cause of the outbreak. Tryptophan was banned from sale in the US, and other countries followed suit.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TryptophanWikipedia, as you probably know is freely posted to and in this case, someone is not up to date.
As the FDA link contained within the discussion post I gave says,
Current policy on the marketing of dietary supplements containing L-tryptophan and related compounds
"Although FDA continues to enunciate its concern about the safety of dietary supplements containing L-tryptophan and related compounds such as L-5-hydroxytryptophan, this does not mean that FDA prohibits the marketing of dietary supplements that contain L-tryptophan. Under the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (the Act), as amended by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA), the manufacturer is responsible for ensuring that its products are safe." http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-tryp1.html
Tryptophan is widely available now.
JL
Posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 13:55:21
In reply to Re: Tryptophan not banned since 1994 » dessbee, posted by JLx on July 14, 2006, at 11:01:09
No I was not addressing you. I was addressing ElaineM but forgot to check box and change title.
Regarding Wikepedia article, just wanted to post the story behind banning Tryptophan.
Posted by Elainem on July 14, 2006, at 14:59:55
In reply to Re: No I was addressing ElaineM » JLx, posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 13:55:21
I developed terrible insomnia, and a seperate, bizarre sleep disorder, when I was very anorexic. Docs assumed they were related, however, I've been weight-restored for 1.5 years, over 100lbs for 2.5, and the insomnia hasn't improved (though the other part has)- I can't stay asleep very long. Only a couple of hours a night. I haven't reacted well to benzos, AP's, high doses of SSRI's, or prescription sleeping pills (they tend to aggravate the other sleep disorder). So we're considering less conventional ways now.
Posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 17:53:59
In reply to Re: No I was addressing ElaineM, posted by Elainem on July 14, 2006, at 14:59:55
Since you have tried benzos and SSRI I presume you suffer from anxiety/depressive disorder. These disorders result in high cortisol levels, which is degenerative on brain tissue.
Anorexia will induce high cortisol levels.
The malnutrition will also contribute to cortisol's degenerative effect.http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_chronic_insomnia_000027_3.htm
If you suffer from insomnia you should exclude caffeine (coffee, tea, coke etc.) from your diet and look for supplements that will lower cortisol levels.Supplements that may alleviate insomnia/anxiety/depression:
St john wort
SeroctinSupplements that may lower cortisol levels:
St john wort
Zinc
Posted by ElaineM on July 15, 2006, at 10:33:19
In reply to Re: Cortisol levels » Elainem, posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 17:53:59
Thanks. I had many docs helping all the times I put on the weight, but none of the ED specialists stayed to help me through the aftermath (ie. I've never heard of cortisol) I think I'll try the zinc. I'm already mega-dosing on Vit.D (for pain), and take a multi, Cal-Mag, and Omega's. I also take codiene(I'm not sure if that would alter things effects)
I kinda think I've heard somewhere that St.John's Wort doesn't interact well with other meds? Or the Pill?
EL
Posted by dessbee on July 15, 2006, at 16:42:59
In reply to Re: Cortisol levels » dessbee, posted by ElaineM on July 15, 2006, at 10:33:19
Your medical record/history seems complicated.
What is the cause of your pain?
Pain disorder will increase cortisol levels.How much vitamin D are you taking?
I am not a big fan of mega dosing, especially vitamin D since it is considered the most toxic vitamin. High doses of vitamin D may cause hypercalcemia (high blood calcium) and increase release of histamine, which may aggrevate your pain disorder and increase release of cortisol.Safest way to increase vitamin D is through sun exposure. This way your eyes will also get bright day light which inhibits the release of melatonin (sleep hormone) during the day and increase its release at night, supporting your circadian rhythm (day-night cycle).
Most pain disorders benefits from warm sunny climate.
Daily moderate exercise is also important for treating pain and insomnia.How much Calcium-Magnesium are you taking?
I am doubtful it will help your insomnia and pain. Calcium may aggrevate your pain and insomnia since it is a stimulant.
Please avoid chelated minerals since some of these aminoacids may disturb your sleep.In my oppinion zinc sulfate (15-20 mg) is a good form.
Fish oil is good in moderate doses but may cause insomnia in high doses (> 4 gram)
St John's Wort increases turnover rate of most drugs, which lowers drugs concentration in the blood. You have to ask your doctor about codeine.
Posted by ElaineM on July 15, 2006, at 17:24:57
In reply to Re: Cortisol levels » ElaineM, posted by dessbee on July 15, 2006, at 16:42:59
...Complicated, to say the least. I also have osteoporosis (hereditary & anorexia side-effect). My alternative medicine doctor now has me on 4000IU of Vit.D. -- she publishes alot on the effects of high doses of D for chronic pain. Apparently I was highly deficient (my level was in the 20's). I'm supposed to work up to anywhere from 6000-8000iu. She takes 10,000 herself! I'm skeptical of what I'm even taking now -- it sounds incredibly high.
The Cal-Mag is 300/150mg - I only take one a day. I'm supposed to take high-dose calcium supplements (but I can't really swallow them). But I've been told that since I'm only 25 that I can still rebuild some bone mass. I don't know.
The omega's say 1600mg, and I take two a day.
From my own daily experiences, I've found warmer temps better too. Cold ones really aggravate Raynauds phenomenon, which I've had problems with for about a year -- yes, I'm truly a mess.
I do intend to mention the codiene to a physician, when I find another (my therapist is the one who has always prescribed it for me). Medically, I only have specialists right now.
In addition to the zinc, are melatonin supplements good/safe? I haven't tried that before.
Thanks Dessbee,
EL
Posted by helpme on July 15, 2006, at 18:34:37
In reply to Re: Cortisol levels » dessbee, posted by ElaineM on July 15, 2006, at 10:33:19
I heard that too- that you get get seraronin syndrome from combining it with either ssris or maois.
> I kinda think I've heard somewhere that St.John's Wort doesn't interact well with other meds? Or the Pill?
>
> EL
Posted by dessbee on July 15, 2006, at 20:09:54
In reply to Re: Cortisol levels, posted by ElaineM on July 15, 2006, at 17:24:57
SJW induce liver metabolising enzymes (e.g. cytochrome P450s), which leads to altered drug concentration and clearance.
http://www.innovationmagazine.com/innovation/volumes/v6n2/coverstory3.shtml
I do not think it is a major concern for you if you only take codeine, but make sure to ask your doctor. SJW is a safe supplement for most people.
4,000 IU! I still claim that sun exposure is the safest way to increase vitamine D. Human beings feel better if they get a daily dose of sun exposure. Sunexposure will give you much higher vitamin D concentrations without any health risks unless you get burned in the sun.
Osteoporosis is also improved by exercise!
Another factor important to cure osteoprosis is vitamin K, especially vitamin K2.
http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1081.html
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/womenshealth/a/Osteoprevent.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_10/ai_n13557316
Melatonin is not really anything I recommend since it will only help you falling asleep. The effect of 2mg will wear off quickly and therefore will not be able to improve deep sleep, at least not in my oppinion.
If SJW is not an option for you you could try Seroctin at bedtime. It increases the release of serotonin/melatonin.
Cortisol has a degenerative effect on any tissue including bone tissue. Another supplement that may lower cortisol levels is vitamin C, which is also good for building bone tissue.
I still do not understand your pain disorder.
Posted by laima on July 24, 2006, at 16:15:20
In reply to Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by ElaineM on July 9, 2006, at 14:38:16
I saw L-tryptophan at my local health food store today! Several brands. Is this the same as "tryptophan"? Not banned from the shelf after all?
Posted by dessbee on July 26, 2006, at 5:12:55
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep?, posted by laima on July 24, 2006, at 16:15:20
statement by the FDA from February, 2001:
"A firm is not required to obtain premarket review or approval from the FDA of its products before marketing them as dietary supplements. Moreover, a firm is not required to submit scientific evidence to FDA of the safety of its products or ingredients. While we are unaware of conclusive scientific data that would establish that a dietary supplement L-tryptophan would be safe, if a firm has information that it believes establishes that a product containing L-tryptophan is safe within the meaning of the Act, it could market such a product as a dietary supplement."
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/tryptophan/tryptophan_law.shtml
L-tryptophan: An isomer of the amino acid tryptophan that is a precursor in the formation of serotonin.
Posted by laima on July 26, 2006, at 10:12:38
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Tryptophan for sleep? » laima, posted by dessbee on July 26, 2006, at 5:12:55
Thanks dessbee.Alas, I just discovered that it is not to be used by anyone who is using an MAOI, like me on EMSAM, due to risk of seratonin syndrome. The bottle said, "Not for use with maois or ssris". Someone just wrote about this, I think it's on the "alternative" forum.
> statement by the FDA from February, 2001:
>
> "A firm is not required to obtain premarket review or approval from the FDA of its products before marketing them as dietary supplements. Moreover, a firm is not required to submit scientific evidence to FDA of the safety of its products or ingredients. While we are unaware of conclusive scientific data that would establish that a dietary supplement L-tryptophan would be safe, if a firm has information that it believes establishes that a product containing L-tryptophan is safe within the meaning of the Act, it could market such a product as a dietary supplement."
>
> http://www.erowid.org/smarts/tryptophan/tryptophan_law.shtml
>
>
> L-tryptophan: An isomer of the amino acid tryptophan that is a precursor in the formation of serotonin.
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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