![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:47:17
In reply to Re: OMG! IT WORKS it works great!, posted by teejay on November 25, 2006, at 13:57:31
Thnaks Teejay! My body is a laboratory and my life's work is to cure depression naturally, for me and all other fellow sufferers. Yes, I am crazy - certified and all!
aeon
Posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:59:33
In reply to Re: Creating anandamide in vivo, posted by nolvas on November 25, 2006, at 17:03:48
Hi
I'll try and explain what it was like first day. I really was not expecting it to work or if it did to build up slowly over weeks. I must be seriously deficient in all these things because it actually was like taking a drug.
I first noticed about an hour after completing the supps a tingling in my back then about ten minutes later an overwhelming surge of the most delicoious feeling energy. I actually had to lie down. This passed very rapidly and i was then immersed in a very pleasant glow of delight and joy and warmth.
Then it started to feel less like a drug and more just like my natural state and I just enjoyed it. Mind was calm, all tenseness in my muscles and pain that I ALWAYS have just evaporated.
I got up after an hour or so and everything just looked lovely. I turned on some music and was enjoying it so much, phyiscally feeling waves of joy from the sounds.
Then it all calmed down a whole lot and I was just left with a pleasant sensation of simple joy.
I slept well and had nice dreams (usually they are of being chased, dying, etc). This morning everything seems brighter, more alive. The sound of the kookaburras and cicadas is just wonderful, whereas they just annoy me normally. I just feel strangely delighted at everything. No morning headache either (first time in years).
Unlike all other relief I have ever had from depression this doesn't feel like I am putting something on top of it. I actually feel different, and the memory of how I felt yesterday is reapidly receeding.
Anyway, I am going to keep doing this. Its unlike anything else I have ever tried.
I can highly recommend it.
Bye
aeon
Posted by Jimmyboy on November 25, 2006, at 18:15:56
In reply to Anandamide experiment update #1, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:59:33
Hey that sounds interesting , keep us all posted!
Posted by tealady on November 25, 2006, at 18:30:57
In reply to Re: Creating anandamide in vivo, posted by nolvas on November 25, 2006, at 17:03:48
I'm not sure about vege.. but if you can drink milk or cream?
there was a markets on Saturday I went to in Nth Sydney and they sold some organic unhomogenised and un-pasteurised milk(exxy but yummy) anyway it was made from jersey cows ONLy..so you can guess it was over 50% cream .. but not the thick stuff you buy..and the cream is more naturally dispersed so the layers arent as pronounced in non pasteurised milk
anyways.. I was think lamb is a combo of protein, omega3(as the lambs are grass fed) and saturated mainly.. with some other types of fats too I'd guess (you'd be sure to find it somewhere in the net if you looked around)..
and I'd guess that grass fed jersey cows pure natural milk (with the cream not removed) would be similar..
and YES it does feel good , especially for the first few daysOthers maybe coconut cream (which I have sometimes)together some ground flaxseed mixed in and some yoghust (if allowed?).. you'd be looking to replace the lamb with a combo of saturated fats (as in coconut cream) and omega 3's mainly but still high in protein
fish with coconut creme (that's just pure coconut not just the oil) or even better a FRESH COCONUT WITH FISH also might do it.. .. but that's not vege either (like fish cooked in a coconut cream saice?).. add some curry for a thai dish?
just guessing here as to what to replace lamb with that may have similar fats, protein
still all a guess..
You'd have to look at the fats and protein levels of the foods which are only average approx guides.. to be sure.well I'd better stop rambling on now..
Posted by tealady on November 25, 2006, at 18:36:36
In reply to Re: recipe, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:31:59
EPO (evening prirose oil) is always been a favourite of mine for feel good.. but I wan't sure if it worked for blokes as wells as girls
that last post of mine was only lokking for a lamb replacement
some people are more efficient at those conversions than others..
i cant remember but I think females are better than males at it.. bad memorybut lamb would be a combo of many fat types :)
Posted by tealady on November 25, 2006, at 19:23:36
In reply to Re: recipe, posted by nolvas on November 25, 2006, at 11:21:46
> Well I take exception to that remark since I'm a vegetarian and well I won't get in to all that this isn't the place, but it's a free world.
>
> Any alternatives to the animal fat in your recipe for us veggies?
>
lamb .. have a look at the chart of fat & fatty acids
http://nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21F9.htmlthe x:0 are all saturated fats (no double bonds,the smaller the first nunber the shorter the chain length),
the x:1 is monounsaturated(one double bond),
the x:3 means there is 3 double bonds, then the n-3 are omega 3's and the n-6 are omega 6's.. this is how far from the end of the chain is the first double bond occurs.
The shorter distance from the end and the greater no of double bonds (if the cis type) makes the fat chain more "wingley" in membranes.
DHA is a 22:6 n-3 omega3 fat..and none in lamb
so 6 double bonds and first one is 3 from the end.c, t are cis and trans ..and most are cis in nature unless they've been hydrogenated aka margarine (and some cooked oils) where you get those trans (probably bad)fats sometimes.. processed foods etc.
yeah and after all of that I find this link
http://nutritiondata.com/fatty-acids.htmlOur bodies use some tyes of fats better than others but they need a mix.
and the thing with omega 3's is we are eating far less of them than we have traditionally(and the old way of eating that's is what our bodies would be designed to run best on)
Our bodies also build some of their own fatty acid chains.. as is being discussed
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 9:53:14
In reply to Re: recipe, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:37:59
>Anandamide signalling may be high in Melancholic >depression as a compensatory mechanism maybe?? >what do you think?
I never knew anandamide signalling to be high in depression. Some studies suggest it is low in melancholic depression. The "endocannabanoid deficiancy" hypothesis.
>As for neurotoxicity - don't know.Unfortunately it is true.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16129828
Linkadge
Posted by sregan on November 26, 2006, at 15:22:07
In reply to Anandamide experiment update #1, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:59:33
> Then it started to feel less like a drug and more just like my natural state and I just enjoyed it. Mind was calm, all tenseness in my muscles and pain that I ALWAYS have just evaporated.
Sounds like my second day on Mucuna Pruriens. There was a peace and clarity. Life was beautiful again. I looked at a cloud formation in front of me and it was breathtakingly artistically beautiful. Anyway, not like a drug but like something that removed everything that was wrong with my normal mode of perception.
Posted by sregan on November 26, 2006, at 15:27:38
In reply to Re: OMG! IT WORKS it works great!, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 17:47:17
> Thnaks Teejay! My body is a laboratory and my life's work is to cure depression naturally, for me and all other fellow sufferers. Yes, I am crazy - certified and all!
I can relate, I've been an experiment for over a year now. I've got the cabinet full of supplements.
You mention Choline in your first post then calcium in the recipe. Is it calcium, if so how is the choline involved?
Shawn
Posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 17:16:33
In reply to Re: recipe Choline or calcium? » aeon, posted by sregan on November 26, 2006, at 15:27:38
I sregan
It needs to be lecithin. The two compounds from lecithin that the body uses are phosphatidyl choline and phostpatidylethanolamine (PE). When these factors are really high, these combine with Arachidonic acid (AA) (from meat or you can use GLA evening primrose oil) in the body and this is encreased in an environment of high Calcium.
Choline by itself will not work - you need lecithin, I recommend the granules, they should taste fresh and nutty.
Lecithin is different from choline though many people use the terms interchangeably which can get confusing. Also in lecithin is a fair amount of phosphatydilinositol, which may act as a second messenger in the serotonin system.
aeon
Posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 17:25:02
In reply to Re: recipe, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 9:53:14
Thanks for that link - its really interesting. I must admit that I have felt a certain "forgetting" going on the last two days.
I feel different largely because I can't quite remember why I am in this situation. It seems a bit ridiculous but I can't remember what it felt like to feel really depressed as much, and the memories of the really bad times seem very distant to me, almost like a movie I saw rather than an event I participated in.
I wonder if the cell death could be beneficial - it sure feels like it. I just can't remember the bad feelings or associations as much. That I think is part of the "simple joy" the newness of everything. I wake up in the morning and the kids faces seem new, my car I felt as if I had never seen before.
It's subtle, but yes I would agree there is some clearing out going on, though I don't know if it is entirely bad.
Will keep you updated. Am still taking the things it still feels good.
I have wanted to try Mucuna but I am concerned about its reaction with Parnate. Are you still using it Linkage?
Posted by blueberry on November 26, 2006, at 18:05:33
In reply to Creating anandamide in vivo, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 5:13:38
I really like this thread and will take good notes on it for a possible trial myself. That being said, I doubt there is any one formula that is going to work for everyone. Every person's genetic makeup, metabolism, deficiencies, and overloads are unique. Trying to have a formula that fits everyone is kind of like trying to find a shoe size that fits everyone. Neverthless, I am likely to try this in the near future and hope the shoe fits me as well as it does aeon.
Posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 18:26:11
In reply to Creating anandamide in vivo, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 5:13:38
Research Locates Source of Runner’s High Experienced by Athletes
Atlanta (January 8, 2004) — A new study conducted at the Georgia Institute of Technology and the University of California, Irvine suggests that a class of chemicals known as cannabinoids may be the missing piece of the “runner’s high” puzzle long sought by scientists.
A Student Runs Laps at Tech's Campus Recreation Ce
A new study suggests that the buzz some people get when they exercise is similar to the high experienced by marijuana users.“Exercise is good for the mind. For the millions of people who exercise, this is not a secret,” said Arne Dietrich, the study’s principal investigator and a former visiting professor at Georgia Tech. “It helps reduce stress, lowers anxiety, suppresses pain, produces a feeling of well-being and can even lead to a euphoric state. To scientists, however, the process that leads to this last phenomenon—popularly known as the ‘runner’s high’—remains an elusive mystery.”
A critical clue in the mystery may have been found, however. As published recently in the journal Neuroreport, Dietrich’s research team has found very high levels of a naturally occurring cannabinoid called anandamide in runners and cyclists who exercised at moderate intensity for an extended period.
Anandamide produces effects similar to those of THC, the psychoactive constituent of marijuana, leading researchers to speculate that “runner’s high” may not be caused by endorphins released by the human body – as previously thought—but by a naturally occurring cannabinoid high.
“I was aware of the limitations of the endorphin theory for explaining the runner’s high, and I thought that Dr. Dietrich’s novel hypothesis fit well within recent endocannabinoid discoveries,” said Professor Phil Sparling, co-director of the Exercise Physiology Lab and Dietrich’s host at Tech..
“The body’s ability to produce cannabinoids is currently an intense area of research”, said Dietrich, who studied them as a visiting professor in Georgia Tech’s School of Applied Physiology this past year. His one-year stay at the Institute was made possible through the College of Sciences Faculty Development Program.
“Cannabinoids that are produced naturally by the body are called endocannabinoids,” Dietrich said. ”The body’s endocannabinoid system has evolved primarily for pain modulation—that is, pain or stress activates the system naturally. This activation, in turn, helps the body to modulate the pain.”
“This natural analgesic system is independent of and complimentary to the body’s opioid system,” he said, and it performs other natural functions such as vasodilation, bronchodilation and sedation.
“Because anandamide and THC bind to the same receptor in the body, all these are also primary effects of smoking or ingesting cannabinoids from outside the body,” Dietrich said.
For their study, researchers asked 24 young men to either run, cycle or sit. If they ran or cycled, participants began with a five-minute warm-up, then built up to a 70-80 percent heart rate, which they sustained for 45 minutes, followed by a cool-down.
In those subjects, investigators documented a dramatic endocannabinoid increase in their body, providing the first evidence that exercise activates the endocannabinoid system. “Numerous follow-up studies are necessary to understand the precise nature of this increase,” Dietrich said, but it remains an exciting discovery for him and his team.
”Since exercise is physical stress—albeit healthy stress—and because it produces muscle break-down, I thought exercise might activate it. This is what we found,” he said. “No other study has ever considered this possibility, which is why the results are so significant.”
Dietrich believes the human body begins to produce high levels of endocannabinoids – and thus a natural “runner’s high”—during moderate-to-intense exercise that produces prolonged stress and pain.
“Once the endocannabinoid system is highly activated, it causes a naturally induced high, as the endocannabinoids produce the same effect than when it is activated unnaturally—by smoking THC for instance,” he said.
It does not appear that this effect causes any harm to runners and athletes who experience it after intense exercise, however.
“In exercise, there is a reason why the endocannabinoid system is activated,” Dietrich said. “One has to deal with a physical stressor, and the endocannabinoid system fulfills its purpose. Smoking marijuana is a different story. This is an unnatural abuse of the system - not intended to be used this way by evolution.”
Dietrich believes this study might provide a possible mechanism to explain why the “runner’s high” might be caused, and it suggests that exercise might be useful to help in the treatment of chronic pain or glaucoma, both of which are treated in some parts of the country in clinical experimental trials using plant-derived cannabinoids such as THC.
“Our work raises many questions,” Dietrich said. “We need to characterize which types of exercise best activate the system, at what intensity, and at what duration,” he said.
“We also need to know: Are there sex differences? Why and when is the system overwhelmed? Can it be used to maximize performance in some way? How does this effect decision making – for example, at the end of a marathon race, or in a combat situation? Our findings produce entirely new avenues of research never considered previously,” he said.
Dietrich is an assistant professor of psychology at Georgia College and State University in Milledgeville, where he also directs the Department of Psychology’s Behavioral Neuroscience Laboratory. His experience at Georgia Tech was part of the College of Sciences Faculty Development Program, which Dean Gary Schuster said provides an exciting way for the Institute to help advance science throughout the state.
“The whole idea here is that Georgia Tech has resources available to it that some other institutions in the University System of Georgia do not, and faculty members at those institutions need to stay current in their disciplines just as much as ours do,” Schuster said. “After all, only people who are active in their disciplines can transmit that excitement and inspiration to their students.”
The Faculty Development Program provides an opportunity for other University System of Georgia faculty to spend either a semester or a year at Georgia Tech, collaborating on research and teaching students.
“It adds a new perspective to some of our courses, and it establishes a connection between us and other universities in Georgia,” Schuster said. “I think it gives Georgia Tech a very positive way to contribute to research and teaching throughout the university system.”
The Georgia Institute of Technology is one of the nation's premiere research universities. Ranked eighth among U.S. News & World Report's top public universities, Georgia Tech's 17,000 students are enrolled in its Colleges of Architecture, Computing, Engineering, Liberal Arts, Management and Sciences. Tech is among the nation's top producers of women and African-American engineers. The Institute offers research opportunities to both undergraduate and graduate students and is home to more than 100 interdisciplinary units plus the Georgia Tech Research Institute.
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:18:29
In reply to Re: recipe, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 17:25:02
Well I suppose cell death in certain areas of the brain are beneficial, but other areas I don't know.
The cortex. Dead cells here are hard, if not impossable to replace (?)
Anyhow, anandamide itself can promote forgetfullness independant of its possably neurotoxic properties.
Andandamide, from the greek (?) ananda, means bliss.Endocannabanoids inhibit cholinergic function, and can make memory a little poor. That is why marajuanna can make people forgetfull.
Other anticholinergics can have the same effect, but needent be neurotoxic.
What is happening in your case?, I have no idea :)
I am sure the fatty acid supplementation could have other, far reaching benifits to mental health, whether or not you are boosing anandamide high enough to induce neurotoxicicty.
I've never tried Mucuna.
I found folic acid worked well with parnate, but some people don't like folic acid.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:20:51
In reply to Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 18:26:11
I have to admit, one of my perids of remission was using the following.
1. Exercicse,
2. Omega-3
3. Wee bit of marajuanna.The common denominator...perhaps enhanced cannabanoid activity?
Linkadge
Posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 20:53:30
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:20:51
Yes, this is getting more and more interesting to me. I am uncovering research that points to anandamide being in a relationship with cortisol also... excess cortisol decreases anandamide and vice versa.
Also anandamide is anti-inflammatory, and is showing intitial promise as a treatment for a number of inflammatory conditions, notably asthma.
Anandamide may be the common link between all mental illness... anxiety, depression, bipolar, shcizoprhenia... there is preliminary evidence of its power over dopamine, serotonin, and mediating NMDA and glutaminergic activity.
schizophrenics have greatly elevated anandamide which they intially thought was implicated in causing it, now they realise that the worse the schizophrenia the less anandamide they have. It is the body's ANTI- psychosis mechanism.
I am adding chocolate to my recipe not for the extra anandamide buit for the anandamide breakdown inhibitors... Buying a bunch of bars of premium swiss 88% cocoa - I believe you eat cocoa Linkadge?
I have to say I feel really really good the more I do this. I actually had a conversation at work this morning with someone and enjoyed it. NOW THAT IS WEIRD!
Posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 22:28:50
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 20:53:30
Turns out removing quercetin was a bad move. My reasoning was that it would stop the conversion of GLA to Arachidonic Acid.
However it turns out that COX 2 is one of the enzymes that degrades anandamide into prostaglandin E2.
Blocking the enzyme means that there is only one other pathway for anandamide breakdown, the FAAh enzyme (Fatty Acid Amide Hydrolyase). Lots of companies are working on ways to block this enzyme. Apparently chocolate contains some FAAH inhibitors but I cannot find out which ones yet.
So I am going to bring back the quercetin (blocking anandamide breakdown may have been the mechanism for how it makes you feel nice anyway) and start eating dark chocolate yum yum.
Cheers
aeon
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 12:23:30
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 20:53:30
>schizophrenics have greatly elevated anandamide >which they intially thought was implicated in >causing it, now they realise that the worse the >schizophrenia the less anandamide they have. It >is the body's ANTI- psychosis mechanism.
You're on the ball, I read that studies too. Yes, anandamide has antidopaminergic properties. It potentiates 5-ht1a receptors, and antagonizes 5-ht2a like some atypical antipsychotics, as well as inhibiting limbic dopamine release.
Thats why too much weed makes people sleepy and unmotivated.
I'd have to reread it, but it also was points to why people with schizophrenia use marajuanna, to try and perhaps counteract a sluggish endocannabanod system?Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 12:27:52
In reply to Update: I was wrong to remove quercetin, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 22:28:50
>Blocking the enzyme means that there is only one >other pathway for anandamide breakdown, the FAAh >enzyme (Fatty Acid Amide Hydrolyase). Lots of >companies are working on ways to block this >enzyme. Apparently chocolate contains some FAAH >inhibitors but I cannot find out which ones yet.
I believe the substances are:
N-oleolethanolamine and N-linoleoylethanolamine
Chocolate contains both inhibitors of anandamide reuptake, and FAAH inhibitors.
The drug URB-597 is a FAAH inhibitor in the pipelines for depression/anxiety.
The drug advil (ibuprofen) is also a FAAH inhibitor. I do not know the degree of FAAH inhibition by ibuprofen though.
Linkadge
Posted by tealady on November 28, 2006, at 23:55:10
In reply to Creating anandamide in vivo, posted by aeon on November 25, 2006, at 5:13:38
HI again Aeon,
I'd never herd of anamide(or hadn't picked up on it)..and I'm unsure if I want to know about it or create it.. BUT this is similar, no?
http://tealady-health.blog.co.uk/2006/11/29/onion_and_garlic_may_lower_cancer_risk~1380668
Posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:45:52
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by aeon on November 26, 2006, at 20:53:30
So, is there any reason to think that marijuana causes mental illness in some people? When I smoked it regularly it seemed to cause paranoia/anxiety (although maybe that was due to something else like diet?) but now I'm wondering if it helped with depression. Any info to share?
-MM
Posted by linkadge on December 2, 2006, at 8:51:15
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins » aeon, posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:45:52
Marajuann is not completely benign, but I don't think that it lives up to the reputation attributed to its reputation as inducing permanant cases of mental illness.
Some studies indicate that marajuanna use preceeds onset of certain mental illness, but some studies show no such association.
Other studies suggest it as a treatment for certain disorders. I know there have been a few studies suggesting the mood stabilizing effects of marajuanna. A lot of people who smoke it refer to it more as a mood stabilizer than anything.
Marajuanna can have some strong anticholinergic properties. Anticholinergics can have a side effect of paranoia. Just like if you take to many anticholinergic antihistamines, or tricyclic antidepressants. (some think that the anticholinergic effect of the TCA's is responsable for their overall superiority to SSRIs)
If you use if for depression, I'd recomend one starts on a very low dose. Paranoia usually happens when one gets too high too fast, and the brain cannon adjust to the rapid shift in cholinergic dopaminergic ballance.Linkadge
Posted by Declan on December 2, 2006, at 16:56:32
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins » aeon, posted by MM on December 2, 2006, at 3:45:52
Marijuana promotes paranoia and anxiety and relieves depression.
It is the worst social drug in the world, but is quite good for listening to music, thinking, going to sleep, and taking the boredom out of insomnia.
Posted by MM on December 6, 2006, at 1:15:12
In reply to Re: Exercise benefit is Anandamide not endorphins, posted by linkadge on December 2, 2006, at 8:51:15
I thought excess dopamine caused paranoia? I really don't have the aptitude for this stuff that you and others on the board seem to so I don't understand most of the research I do :). The way many here have picked up on it (neurochemistry?) is amazing to me. Thanks for continuing to help out the rest of the board with it guys.
Not sure what I'm going to do as far as trying pot for mood at this point though. I'll come back and post if there's anything to report.
P.S. Any gender differences known as far as THC effects? It seems to me that guys find it more helpful for depression?
-MM
Posted by MM on December 6, 2006, at 1:21:56
In reply to My experience, posted by Declan on December 2, 2006, at 16:56:32
> It is the worst social drug in the world....
Definitely true for me. I'm wondering if it contributed to my social anxiety back then overall.Do you find any lingering paranoia/anxiety that you attribute (or did attribute, if you don't use it anymore) to marijuana? Like, do you find that it raises/raised your "baseline" anxiety, etc?
-MM
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.