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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Norrin Radd on October 13, 2007, at 10:19:04
_Grant Em posted:
"I have spontaneous panic attacks, and they always seem to start w/ dissociation.
First, I'll feel that Im not as conscious as I should be. I realize that I'm not completely aware of my surroundings... I feel like I'm not able to fully comprehend everything. If some is talking to me, I realize that I'm not understanding part or all of what they are saying. If I'm just looking at something, I feel that the object is unreal."
(From here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050718/msgs/530664.html)
Earlier, HopeB posted this:
" ... I have been dealing with it for ayear now and it is very hard and I cover very well but somtimes I feel like I just can't any longer what do you do?
also I have found mine is worse at night- also somtimes my family and familiar things seem foggy and unfamiliar like I have to remind myself this is real and they are familiar! anyone else?"(from here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20001231/msgs/50957.html)
I get these episodes also. I'm 47. I had less than a handful (i.e. five or fewer) scattered randomly over my life beginning at *roughly* age 12. This past summer and fall, I suddenly started getting them frequently. For me, there is no "firm" pattern, but there seems to be *some* correlation to fatigue, change of sleep schedule, and maybe crashing blood sugar. For me, the derealization/depersonalization feelings usually come first, and they in turn lead to panic. I "cover" well, but inside... Well, picture Charlie Brown running full-tilt across the screen with his arms in the air and yelling, "Aaaaauuugghhh!!!" I usually find that if I can manage to survive the urge to run (as if I could outrun chemicals in my own brain anyway!), a nap -- even a very brief one -- seems to help quite a bit; it's almost like some sort of "reboot."
There is no *external* trigger for the "attacks."
I have no history of childhood trauma; I can hardly imagine a LESS traumatic or stressful childhood. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the relative ease of my youth left me unprepared to handle even mundane stressors.
I have not considered myself "anxious," until recently; I am now often "anxious" about the prospect of having another attack, or about a feeling of derealization that does not end. However, even when not consciously "feeling" anxious, I am fidgety and easily startled, and always have been so.
Ok, with all that aside...Anyone have suggestions?
Niacinamide? Thiamine? GABA? Omega-3 fats? DMAE? Inositol? Anything else?
Posted by nolvas on October 13, 2007, at 11:38:57
In reply to Derealization/depersonalization --- Revisit, posted by Norrin Radd on October 13, 2007, at 10:19:04
Im 37. I've had anxiety since I was 11 or 12. Didn't affect my lifely badly until I was 21/22 around 1992. In the last couple of years it's come back and hit me hard. Derealisation is a normal part of anxiety, it's horrible as are the other symptoms. I get agitation, panic, severe vertigo. Really nasty I hate it. Let me tell you what works for me to some extent, I'm afraid I can't recommend much that you can rely on 100%.
Ok here's what works 100% but I list as dangerous to be used with caution or not at all >
Benzodiazepine drugs :
Mainly valium (I live in the UK and you won't get this prescribed very often, if I ever get any I take as emergency only, it's very effective but you must not rely on it because it will turn on you and make things much worse)
Alcohol : Again this is very effective, but I totally advise against this for self medication, it's known to make anxiety and phobic conditions worse, it can be an emergency measure, the potential for addiction is frightening though.
Ok alternative remedies that I've tried in no order of effectiveness, just as I remember them :
Theanine : Almost no effect in calming severe anxiety or agitation for me.
Taurine : Mild effect, sometimes makes me feel worse and dizzy once the effect has worn off.
Magnesium : Mild to reasonable effectiveness in calming. Some people recommend balancing it with a small amount of calcium.
Kava : Moderately effect, raw root, you know when you have the proper stuff as the mucous membranes of the mouth go numb. No addiction potential as far as I know.
Passionflower : No effectiveness at any dosage for me.
Nicinamide : Just gives me a hangover effect the next day, always feel horrible from it.
Inositol : Tried it for 3 months using powered form at 8 to 12 grams per day, anxiety progressively worsened.
Gingko Biloba : 2 x 60 mg per day standardised extract 24% glycosides, 6% terpenes. This is not a high dosage, but it's effective for me to reduce agitation. Next I want to try itcombined with a standardised ginger extract.
Bacopa : Effective if used sparingly, I can do a couple of days of bacopa with mood elevating effects any more and I anxiety starts to worsen.
Rhodiola : No noticable effectiveness for me.
Ashwaghanda : Increased anxiety and agitation or didn't help to lessen it.
Magnolia : Slight effectiveness in reducing anxiety. I think the dosage should be more like ten times the amount in the relora products. I mean to test this at some point.
You can see I've tried a fair amount of natural treatments and very few are of any use for me.
Cognitive Behaviour Therapy and NLP including the Fast Phobia Cure, these are effective indeed but personally I feel you need to keep practising them and get a top up every now and then to reduce the negative thoughts.
I hope my post isn't too negative for you, there are things that work, keep trying, never give up, remember you control your anxiety, you make it worse, once you realise that you can make the anxiety work for you.
There is a highly recommended book I've seen on various sites including Amazon and I will be buying it. It's called "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook" by Edmund J Bourne. This is potentially the highest rated book for treating phobic and anxiety states. Looks like a must purchase.
There are many many people with anxiety and phobic states, and there are many people who have successfully countered or cope with their anxiety. You definitely can deal with it and it's never hopeless. You will have good and bad days.
I recommend Kava and Gingko Biloba, changing your though patterns using cognitive techniques, also very importantly learn the correct way to breathe to control anxiety. I wish you well.
Posted by Sigismund on October 13, 2007, at 16:01:49
In reply to Derealization/depersonalization --- Revisit, posted by Norrin Radd on October 13, 2007, at 10:19:04
In "Feeling Unreal" the authors kinda say that no substances work reliably or well for depersonalisation as such, as opposed to the anxiety or depression existing as a cause or a result.
There was some evidence that things that increase NE might be helpful (which was a surprise) such as bupropion(!).My positive experiences are really the ones that didn't help with sleep, like Hydergine, deprenyl and (particularly bad for sleep) rhodiola.
Tianeptine may have been helpful.Getting a good sleep seems important, and that can be really difficult to organise.
Posted by Norrin Radd on October 14, 2007, at 4:23:53
In reply to Re: Derealization/depersonalization --- Revisit, posted by Sigismund on October 13, 2007, at 16:01:49
> In "Feeling Unreal" the authors kinda say that no substances work reliably or well for depersonalisation as such, as opposed to the anxiety or depression existing as a cause or a result.
Well that's annoying.
> There was some evidence that things that increase NE might be helpful (which was a surprise) such as bupropion(!).
>What's "NE"? Norepinephrine?
> My positive experiences are really the ones that didn't help with sleep, like Hydergine, deprenyl and (particularly bad for sleep) rhodiola.
> Tianeptine may have been helpful.
>
> Getting a good sleep seems important, and that can be really difficult to organise.Yeah, and it seems like not only is "too little" sleep bad, but also an extra-long "catch-up" sleep is not the greatest asset.
Thanks!
Posted by Norrin Radd on October 14, 2007, at 4:39:57
In reply to Re: Derealization/depersonalization --- Revisit, posted by nolvas on October 13, 2007, at 11:38:57
Thanks for the reply. Lots of stuff there to ponder -- including things I've either been taking or have planned to take, and should probably reconsider.
About CBT and NLP -- I know I have claustrophobia. Developed that about 22 years ago, when I had a CAT-scan. Man, if I could have found a way to crawl out of my skin... But anyway, before that, I had no fear of being closed in or bound. I've also had flickers of acrophobia, but I can quickly shut them off and enjoy the view. I wish the claustrophobia were so easy!
Anyway, I'm rambling, 'cause I'm feeling quite good tonight. Here's the question: My derealization attacks hit out of the blue, with no preceding anxiety. Then as soon as things seem "unreal," panic begins. My coping strategy has been to try to control my breathing, and to focus on what I'm "doing," instead of what I'm "feeling." Will CBT and NLP help in such cases?
Posted by nolvas on October 14, 2007, at 7:26:25
In reply to Re: Derealization/depersonalization --- Revisit, posted by Norrin Radd on October 14, 2007, at 4:39:57
Probably the quickest way to see if NLP will help you is to use the Fast Phobia cure. Although I do recommend a professional to perform the fast phobia cure on you, for want of better words.
This is the fast phobia cure described >
http://www.deep-trance.com/techniques/fast-phobia-cure.html
CBT at it's basic level is gradually exposing yourself to a situation. You learn coping techniques etc.
This is the end of the thread.
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