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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
I'm guessing not, but...
We've had such difficulty with our four-year old son and separation anxiety. It ebbs and flows, but I can honestly say, I haven't gone two weeks in a row since before he could talk without having trouble dropping him off at daycare in the morning. Yesterday was the worst in a long time. He was screaming and crying for me to stay with him. It was terribly sad for both of us.
I feel like it sometimes starts out as a bit of a test on his part to see what I'll give in to and how long he can get me to stay. I think I've seen hints of a devilish grin from time to time. But, by the time I'm really ready (needing) to leave, he has himself so worked up about it, he can no longer control his emotions and starts furiously pulling his lip and eventually ends up crying and the teacher has to physically keep him in the room.
It's never been such an issue when his dad drops him off, but he's recently started travelling more often again and can only bring our little guy to daycare occassionally. That said, I think the fact that his dad is travelling more is part of his anxiety. Plus, he's recently switched to a different classroom. Again, though, we've always had difficulty.
So, I talked to the center director who provided the name of someone who works through the county but with families to provide resources and referrals for children with various issues. He's going to come over on Thursday night and talk at greater length with us, but I believe he's already made up his mind that it's my fault and I need to look at what I'm conveying to our son and change my behavior appropriately. He asked early on in the conversation if I'm an anxious person and I answered affirmatively. After that, each time I tried to explain what I've done to help my son, he responded with a comment about me needing to reflect on how I'm feeling about leaving him at daycare.
Okay, okay. I hear ya, dude, and I'll take a lot of the responsibility, but I've tried really hard to keep myself in check and be completely aware of how hard it is for me while still reassuring my son that I love him, I'll miss him, but I'll be back. Some of you may know (and even have suggested) the different ways I've tried working with my son on this. I believe I've tried every trick in the book. I just feel too aware of what's going on to say I'm completely responsible for my son's feelings. Or am I? Have I screwed him up already? He's a sensitive kid. Too sensitive?
It'll be interesting to see what this guy has to say or recommend. He seems nice enough. I just wish he'd reserved some of his judgement until after he really got a chance to talk with and see us. Fortunately, I see my own wonderful T tomorrow night. I know he'll help me get back at least a bit of my confidence in my parenting abilities before Thursday night.
Thanks for listening.
Laurie
P.S. I don't really believe it's all my fault. Mr. Counselor needs to know me a little longer than five minutes before he can convince me of that. ;)
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2006, at 17:27:21
In reply to Is it all my fault?, posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
No, it is not all your fault.
Our kids are born with their own personalities. And their own needs.
My son spent the first eight months or so of his life being held by someone, because he screamed bloody blue murder when you put him down. He didn't move to his own bed until he was two, and that's only because we bought him a really cool race car bed. On occasion we tried to let him scream it out. But my son is a pretty determined little screamer, and in general refuses to make any developmental step until it's *his* choice.
We had a bit of trouble at preschool, at the beginning, until he decided friends were more fun than Mom. Which he still most fervently believes.
Is he ok once you're gone? After the first few weeks they told me he was fine once I was gone. I verified that with a bit of espionage (there were convenient windows from outside), and once I believed it, I got pretty comfortable with dropping him off and letting him scream, since I knew he'd soon be ok. And maybe not even want to leave when I picked him up. But it could well be different, because my son *really* likes playing with other kids.
That being said, there was a persistent problem when he was in preschool with him being too afraid to do things without a lot of support from his teachers. We brought him to a perfectly awful counselor, who had one brilliant bit of advice (among the less brilliant bits) that pretty much solved the problem for us. He told us that when my son asked for instructions to simply tell him that we trusted him to know what to do. Or to ask what he thought he should do. And that was it. Whatever was in his little mind that made him think he needed to ask was answered by that reply.
So there might be something that your son is thinking, but is unable to articulate, that a counselor might be able to help you with.
If worse comes to worst, there's always the thought that this is a time limited stage. Eventually he won't *want* to show so much emotion in front of his friends.
Just keep in mind that you're a great mom. And your son is a terrific little boy. Learning things that you can do differently that might help doesn't mean you caused this problem. Although of course I think the same thing whenever my son is less than happy. :(
Posted by Toph on October 3, 2006, at 18:21:20
In reply to Is it all my fault?, posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
Saying its all your fault makes about as much sense as saying it's his fault Laurie. Sure, you don't want him to suffer in any way and he wants to do whatever he can at the time to get you to comfort him. These dramas are acted out all the time to varying degrees. He seems smart and sensitive, that makes separation experiences tough for you both, but his insight will also allow him to be acutely aware of how pleased you will certainly be when he develops more independence.
Posted by Gee on October 4, 2006, at 19:43:23
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? » All Done, posted by Toph on October 3, 2006, at 18:21:20
I don't know if this will help at all, and if it doesn't just totally disregard it. I went to preschool and was very very happy there. I didn't wait around for my mom, I just went off and played with my friends. During the summer, my mom thought I might like to have some kids to play with just like at preschool. So she put me in daycare just a couple mornings a week. I don't know how long I went for, but I cried the entire time. I don't know why I hated it, and I knew my mom would be back, but I did. I was a kid who mimicked my mom anxiety about things. Maybe that had something to do with it? But kids have their own personalities. They do understand how their parents are feeling about situations regarding them. Maybe you could try telling him that you'll stay for 5 minutes. Have a timer and when the five minutes goes off you leave? My mom had a daycare and we found that worked. Or you could try making a social story. You know with pictures of him doing everything. Like in the mornings before school we have breakfast (with a picture of him at the table), (new page) we brush our teeth (pic), then we get ready to go. We.... then when you get to the school pictures of him doing what he's suppose to do, and a picture of you returning, with the words something like, mommy returns and finds a happy _____ playing with his friends. Mommy loves _____ very much. Try reading it to him before you go, and when you get to school. I hope it helps. GOod luck
Posted by Daisym on October 5, 2006, at 22:55:11
In reply to Is it all my fault?, posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
I hope it goes OK tonight.
I've been thinking about this a lot. Could it be that your little guy is angry -- not anxious? It is hard for kids to show how angry they are - and think about it from his perspective -- dad is gone, and he probably doesn't like that. One of his favorite teachers left and came back - and he probably didn't like that. Now he is in a new classroom, and change is really hard. So while he likes the classroom, he most likely doesn't like the change. And I can imagine that he "forgets" in the evening that he has moved to a new room and then gets reminded in the morning - and the upset starts again.
The other thing that occurs to me is that you've been having your own hugely hard time with separation anxiety. So it is likely that he is acting it out for you. I know that sounds "out there" but sensitive kids often do this. It is sort of a classical projective identification, or empathic response. It will be interesting to pay attention to his ebbs and flows, in comparison to your own.
I'll be interested in what the counselor suggests. I have a couple of ideas but I'll hold them for now.
hugs,
Daisy
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2006, at 15:27:48
In reply to Is it all my fault?, posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
Hi Laurie,
It isn't your fault, some children have different temperments and there isn't a lot you can do about it other than work with it, which you are doing already.
The fact that he clings to you shows he is attached to you, (which is a good thing). My kids are much older (10 and 11) and when their father goes on business trips they miss their dad a lot and they act up when normally they don't.
So maybe part of the intensity could be your husband is gone more, and your son misses him, and also the new classroom (which is a big thing).
I used to have a liceased daycare in my home where I took care of kids and offered preschool. It is true that , when you leave they do tend to settle down and are fine. The thing is that they know it gets to you and even with your DH gone more, I am sure it is affecting you too having to take on more. Well you son probably feels it too, and is using it . ( they are smart little buggers, lol)
The fact that you are writing about this and talking to your teachers about it, shows me that you are a "good " and consciences mom. You will get through this, in fact I have a feeling that it may not even be so much about you rather than you DH or the new classroom. :-)
Posted by All Done on October 9, 2006, at 17:00:44
In reply to Is it all my fault?, posted by All Done on October 3, 2006, at 16:10:52
I'm sorry it's taken me so long to post. I want to post to each of you individually, but I'm at work, so I'm thinking perhaps I should be, well...working.
The counselor, M, spent about an hour and a half at our house talking mainly with my husband and me. It was an interesting conversation, but I can't say I learned too much.
He doesn't think our son, n, needs any sort of counseling. He said this seems to be his only "issue" and one we can probably work out. No one believes it's a problem that needs to be solved, so to speak. I think we just need to help my son manage his feelings a little more. He's sad when I leave. Nothing's going to change that and I still believe it's a sign of a pretty healthy attachment. (M did ask my husband if he ever feels my son's attachment to me is a problem. He said sometimes he wonders, but generally, he thinks it's okay. I could be wrong, but think this might be a pretty normal response from a dad when the mom is the "primary caregiver".)
Anyway, there was a lot discussed. I think it was very helpful for my husband and he probably learned a lot. Including that I might be so attuned to n's feelings because of my own attachment issues with my T. He didn't say anything about it later, but I think it could help some of our conversations down the road.
In the end, M said there were a few things he could suggest, but he feels whatever we do needs to work for our family specifically. So, he was guessing the suggestion to leave n at daycare each morning with only a goodbye and "I love you", regardless of how hard he's crying or how upset he is, wouldn't be the best idea. He figured a month of that and things would be better. Knowing my answer he asked if I'd be able to do that. Nope. Personally, I don't feel that's the best way to handle the situation, and I don't have enough of whatever it takes to do that, anyway.
So, his main suggestion was the same as Gee's (thanks, Gee!) He would like to see us make a book with pictures of our morning and how it goes each day. Breakfast, getting ready, going to daycare, saying goodbye (hugs and kisses), etc. All, of course with a happy ending...Mommy always comes back. n will be able to look at the book as much as he wants each day and we can journal his feelings as we start using the book. M suggested when the book is done, I tell n I will spend 10 minutes with him at daycare in the morning. The next day 9 minutes and so on.
I think it's a great idea. If nothing else, it's going to give us a great project to work on together. But I'm willing to bet it's going to help a lot.
Sorry to ramble so much, again. I really do appreciate your wonderful, thoughtful replies. I hope I have a little more time over the next few days to get some responses written.
Laurie
Posted by Jost on October 11, 2006, at 17:49:02
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? (long again), posted by All Done on October 9, 2006, at 17:00:44
It's great that you're reframing it as a project, rather than an abandonment, or loss on the part of your son-- and yourself.
Separation is a huge issue-- perhaps your sense of loss and his are complementary. So you both have to work on knowing that it's a loss in a way-- because you aren't together in your good way-- but it can also be a gain-- you'll feel one another's presence, and be able to experience so many meaningful things, that you couldn't do if you were always and only together.
And you'll see one another again, and share what's happened. That can make your being together richer and more exciting too.
I do think being as caring, but firm, and unambivalent-- as you can-- when saying goodby-- is helping him too. From my own life, I've come to think that if a child senses that a parent is too sad, or frightened to separate, it gives the child a sense of letting the parent down, causing their parent to suffer, and also of being bad in enjoying himself-- in choosing separateness.
Sometimes it seems like rejection, but in other ways, it's faith-- in his (and your) ability to handle the day-- to stay connected-- and, in fact, to reconnect later, despite distance.
I hope you don't feel too sad at seeing him move into a new part of life-- I know it is sad, in a way-- but it can be good, too--
Jost
Posted by All Done on October 16, 2006, at 17:23:44
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault?, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2006, at 17:27:21
> No, it is not all your fault.
>
> Our kids are born with their own personalities. And their own needs.
>
> My son spent the first eight months or so of his life being held by someone, because he screamed bloody blue murder when you put him down. He didn't move to his own bed until he was two, and that's only because we bought him a really cool race car bed. On occasion we tried to let him scream it out. But my son is a pretty determined little screamer, and in general refuses to make any developmental step until it's *his* choice.Yeah, I've found n is best left to develop at his own pace. The very few times we've tried to "push" for a certain step to be taken, it's backfired on us. He lets us know when he's ready for things. Then again, I think sometimes I'm the one who needs to catch up with him.
> We had a bit of trouble at preschool, at the beginning, until he decided friends were more fun than Mom. Which he still most fervently believes.
>
> Is he ok once you're gone? After the first few weeks they told me he was fine once I was gone. I verified that with a bit of espionage (there were convenient windows from outside), and once I believed it, I got pretty comfortable with dropping him off and letting him scream, since I knew he'd soon be ok. And maybe not even want to leave when I picked him up. But it could well be different, because my son *really* likes playing with other kids.He does great after I leave. His teachers and the center director have all reassured me that the rough mornings only last a few minutes after I leave. I've watched through the windows and I call during the day. He can barely stand to stay on the phone with me when something exciting is going on. Today, in the middle of our conversation he said (yelled), "Maya's standing on a chair and she's going to jump!!! I have to go! Bye, Mom!" Oh my, I don't envy preschool teachers.
> That being said, there was a persistent problem when he was in preschool with him being too afraid to do things without a lot of support from his teachers. We brought him to a perfectly awful counselor, who had one brilliant bit of advice (among the less brilliant bits) that pretty much solved the problem for us. He told us that when my son asked for instructions to simply tell him that we trusted him to know what to do. Or to ask what he thought he should do. And that was it. Whatever was in his little mind that made him think he needed to ask was answered by that reply.
>
> So there might be something that your son is thinking, but is unable to articulate, that a counselor might be able to help you with.I'm really hoping this project helps him. And I'm wondering if I'll learn a few things in the process. Perhaps putting it together will be enough to help him identify his feelings during the drop off process and throughout the day.
> If worse comes to worst, there's always the thought that this is a time limited stage. Eventually he won't *want* to show so much emotion in front of his friends.
>
> Just keep in mind that you're a great mom. And your son is a terrific little boy. Learning things that you can do differently that might help doesn't mean you caused this problem. Although of course I think the same thing whenever my son is less than happy. :(Thanks, Dinah.
I'm trying to remember that I am neither the sole source of his happiness or unhappiness.
Posted by All Done on October 16, 2006, at 17:33:10
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? » All Done, posted by Toph on October 3, 2006, at 18:21:20
> his insight will also allow him to be acutely aware of how pleased you will certainly be when he develops more independence.
I'm afraid I'm not or won't be so pleased as he develops more independence, though. It's terrible of me. I think I'm not letting go. :(
Posted by All Done on October 16, 2006, at 17:40:52
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault?, posted by Gee on October 4, 2006, at 19:43:23
> Maybe you could try telling him that you'll stay for 5 minutes. Have a timer and when the five minutes goes off you leave? My mom had a daycare and we found that worked. Or you could try making a social story. You know with pictures of him doing everything. Like in the mornings before school we have breakfast (with a picture of him at the table), (new page) we brush our teeth (pic), then we get ready to go. We.... then when you get to the school pictures of him doing what he's suppose to do, and a picture of you returning, with the words something like, mommy returns and finds a happy _____ playing with his friends. Mommy loves _____ very much. Try reading it to him before you go, and when you get to school. I hope it helps. GOod luck
Thanks, Gee! I think you must have channeled the counselor before he came to talk to us! As I mentioned in my earlier post, he gave us the same suggestions of making a book and setting a time limit on saying goodbye each day.
We're working on the pictures and I've brought him to a few stores and he's picked out stickers to use in the book. I want to get pictures from a few days so he can help me choose the "good" ones. We've still had a mix of days, some good, some difficult. I've tried my hardest to spare him all my "stuff" and only give him the good stuff to mimic, but he seriously knows what pushes my buttons.
I'll let you know how the story turns out. Thanks, again!
Posted by All Done on October 17, 2006, at 17:04:40
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? » All Done, posted by Daisym on October 5, 2006, at 22:55:11
> I hope it goes OK tonight.
>
> I've been thinking about this a lot. Could it be that your little guy is angry -- not anxious? It is hard for kids to show how angry they are - and think about it from his perspective -- dad is gone, and he probably doesn't like that. One of his favorite teachers left and came back - and he probably didn't like that. Now he is in a new classroom, and change is really hard. So while he likes the classroom, he most likely doesn't like the change. And I can imagine that he "forgets" in the evening that he has moved to a new room and then gets reminded in the morning - and the upset starts again.There has been so much going on he would have every reason to get angry. So much of his world changed so quickly. I know he knows how to tell me he's angry - at least when he's angry at me - but I have such a hard time naming my own anger, I imagine it's even harder for him.
> The other thing that occurs to me is that you've been having your own hugely hard time with separation anxiety. So it is likely that he is acting it out for you. I know that sounds "out there" but sensitive kids often do this. It is sort of a classical projective identification, or empathic response. It will be interesting to pay attention to his ebbs and flows, in comparison to your own.I will have to pay more attention to when it occurs the most for both of us, but I definitely agree this could be happening. I just hope we don't keep bouncing our anxieties off of each other in some sort of never ending pattern.
Posted by All Done on October 17, 2006, at 17:13:01
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault?, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2006, at 15:27:48
> The fact that he clings to you shows he is attached to you, (which is a good thing). My kids are much older (10 and 11) and when their father goes on business trips they miss their dad a lot and they act up when normally they don't.
Does their dad travel a lot? Usually when my husband's out of town, n even gets physically clingier. I can tell a difference in him for sure. It's just that my husband's schedule is probably going to include even more travel as time goes on. I hope we can figure out a way to make it easier.
> So maybe part of the intensity could be your husband is gone more, and your son misses him, and also the new classroom (which is a big thing).
>
> I used to have a liceased daycare in my home where I took care of kids and offered preschool. It is true that , when you leave they do tend to settle down and are fine. The thing is that they know it gets to you and even with your DH gone more, I am sure it is affecting you too having to take on more. Well you son probably feels it too, and is using it . ( they are smart little buggers, lol)My T has been gently suggesting this more recently. I've always said my husband and I work well together because we both need our time alone and we're both okay with that. As our son gets older, though, I've noticed it's harder to do the everyday routine without my husband around. And, the more I work on in my own therapy, the more I need someone around for me. I guess I resist admitting how much I want or need him around. Who ever said all this being independent stuff was so important anyway?
> The fact that you are writing about this and talking to your teachers about it, shows me that you are a "good " and consciences mom. You will get through this, in fact I have a feeling that it may not even be so much about you rather than you DH or the new classroom. :-)Thanks, happyflower!
Posted by All Done on October 17, 2006, at 17:21:11
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? (long again), posted by Jost on October 11, 2006, at 17:49:02
> It's great that you're reframing it as a project, rather than an abandonment, or loss on the part of your son-- and yourself.
>
> Separation is a huge issue-- perhaps your sense of loss and his are complementary. So you both have to work on knowing that it's a loss in a way-- because you aren't together in your good way-- but it can also be a gain-- you'll feel one another's presence, and be able to experience so many meaningful things, that you couldn't do if you were always and only together.
>
> And you'll see one another again, and share what's happened. That can make your being together richer and more exciting too.
>
> I do think being as caring, but firm, and unambivalent-- as you can-- when saying goodby-- is helping him too. From my own life, I've come to think that if a child senses that a parent is too sad, or frightened to separate, it gives the child a sense of letting the parent down, causing their parent to suffer, and also of being bad in enjoying himself-- in choosing separateness.
>
> Sometimes it seems like rejection, but in other ways, it's faith-- in his (and your) ability to handle the day-- to stay connected-- and, in fact, to reconnect later, despite distance.
>
> I hope you don't feel too sad at seeing him move into a new part of life-- I know it is sad, in a way-- but it can be good, too--
>
> Jost
>Absence makes the heart grow fonder, huh? I think my heart is going to burst from all this "fondness" I have for special people in my life. ;)
I just don't know - how do I get over this desire for him to need me? I want him to be happy and gain independence at an appropriate rate. How do I know what that looks like without having raised another child and perhaps more importantly, without having gained my own independence at an appropriate rate? I'm so afraid of being like my mom. :( I've got to let him grow up.
Thanks for giving me a lot to think about, Jost.
Posted by Gee on October 19, 2006, at 19:45:48
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? (long again) » Jost, posted by All Done on October 17, 2006, at 17:21:11
How's the book going? It sounds like you guys are having fun making it!
Posted by All Done on October 23, 2006, at 1:03:32
In reply to Re: Is it all my fault? » All Done, posted by Gee on October 19, 2006, at 19:45:48
> How's the book going? It sounds like you guys are having fun making it!
We've made several sticker and paper purchases to help decorate the pages, which have him very excited. We haven't picked out the book, yet, but I've taken a few pictures at home. Our mornings have been so hectic lately and now, I'm out of town until Thursday.
I took Friday off, though, and brought him to see Snow White at a theater downtown and then we went to Navy Pier for the "Ghostly Gardens" Halloween thing for younger kids. We had so much fun!
Thanks for asking, Gee!
I hope you're doing well. :)
Laurie
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 17:06:12
In reply to Re: Slowly, but we'll get there » Gee, posted by All Done on October 23, 2006, at 1:03:32
> > How's the book going? It sounds like you guys are having fun making it!
>
> We've made several sticker and paper purchases to help decorate the pages, which have him very excited. We haven't picked out the book, yet, but I've taken a few pictures at home. Our mornings have been so hectic lately and now, I'm out of town until Thursday.
>
> I took Friday off, though, and brought him to see Snow White at a theater downtown and then we went to Navy Pier for the "Ghostly Gardens" Halloween thing for younger kids. We had so much fun!
>
> Thanks for asking, Gee!
>
> I hope you're doing well. :)
>
> LaurieThat sounds awesome Laurie :) I'm glad you were able to spend some quality time with your kid!
I went to a halloween evening at an aquarium. I saw a lot of little kids there, all in their costumes. So cute :)
-Li
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