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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Declan on July 19, 2006, at 19:15:30
In reply to Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 14:14:17
But 3 days ago you didn't feel so bad, when you led the sobriety meeting. So you loathe yourself? I suppose you'd know. Mirrors are a special case; I'm better away from them myself. There's not much point in telling you that you are kind. I find though that I can feel pretty bad (one way or another) and still like things about myself, quite apart from what anyone else thinks. In this life we should learn to think for ourselves, which doesn't just mean accepting our own valuation of ourselves uncritically, but neither does it mean accepting any other from outside. This was leading somewhere before the phone rang. When you are kind to others, do you feel better about yourself?
Declan
Posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 20:56:38
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » ClearSkies, posted by Declan on July 19, 2006, at 19:15:30
> But 3 days ago you didn't feel so bad, when you led the sobriety meeting. So you loathe yourself?
I cried when the group thanked me for leading. I got a phone call from the regular moderator, saying she got good feedback about me. I cried at her call.
>When you are kind to others, do you feel better about yourself?
> DeclanNo, I feel grateful that my kindness has been accepted. Thankful for the attention.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 19, 2006, at 21:48:49
In reply to Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 14:14:17
When I am really depressed, I get the exact same narrowing of vision that you describe so perfectly.
One of my friends asked me to find one beautiful thing on my commute home from work. It works really well, because then your attention is focused on finding something nice. Then my friend asked me to report what I found. It was two things actually. One was the fragrance of some jasmine-like flower, in the hot summer air. The other was that there were tiny flowers planted near the sidewalk, where for 5 years there had previously been patchy grass. Someone cared enough to rehabilitate my street, and it was cute.
Try to see something beautiful tomorrow. Tell us what you find.
-ll
Posted by Declan on July 19, 2006, at 21:52:47
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » Declan, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 20:56:38
I'm very fond of gratitude. It has nothing to do with self esteem, because you can be grateful and have no self respect; they may be opposed in that sense. But William Blake said 'gratitude is heaven itself' and as I'm fond of deferring when I'm not being provocative, I shall defer to him. He might have been onto something. Gratitude is an open vulnerable state. You think it's good? I think I do.
Posted by Phillipa on July 19, 2006, at 22:19:43
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » ClearSkies, posted by curtm on July 19, 2006, at 15:47:20
You know curtm you are very smart and intelligent. I totally agree with you one thing a day. And as you add up accomplishments your depression may get better and stay away from mirrors especially the ones in department stores. Love Phillipa
Posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:34:20
In reply to Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 14:14:17
>
> What keeps you going when you loathe yourself so completely?You do, for one...
When I'm drowning in despair -- I can't believe I'm going to admit this, but it shows you how much I care about you to admit this publicly -- CourtTV and Law & Order reruns help me get through the day. I will lie on the sofa, with a quilt pulled around my head (my legs can be out, but my head has to be covered), and find a channel to watch. Those are the two most common choices. I also perform swan dives into potato chip books. (May I interest you in a writer called Stephen White? Good storyteller, interesting enough characters, and I'll give him an 85 for danceability, Dick...)
Often, I'll also get an -- wait, what did Dinah call them? Not "obsessions," but "Enthusiasms..." I'll get an Enthusiasm going. One time it was learning to spin -- spun several pounds of wool, and knit only with homespun for nearly a year. Another was sewing a bunch of new tops. Just cut 'em all out -- all undyed rayon challis -- stitch 'em all up, and then dye them all. It was helpful, because instead of having a focus on my own misery, I was able to become engaged by the process -- although, when I sew, it kinda seems miraculous to me, not as though I'm doing something, but as though a miracle is occurring which has nothing to do with my actions. So, it's always a surprise to me what happens when I sew, which I think is why that works for me. Oh, yeah, and the dyeing part is fun...
Mostly, when I get deeply depressed, I have been trying to take the pressure off myself -- rather than forcing myself to carry on as though I was OK, I am trying to give myself Depression Time. Take the time off, cancel everything except therapy, just be. Sure, it's Just Be depressed, but at least it's better than the alternative for me.
And CS? What I started with is true. I'm in class until 12:30 my time, but you've got my number. And I can make time on Friday. If you think it would help.
Hey! I can even tell you what a loser you are, if that would help! (Or I can tell you what I really think...)
Posted by llrrrpp on July 20, 2006, at 9:00:14
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » ClearSkies, posted by Racer on July 20, 2006, at 0:34:20
Racer wrote:
Mostly, when I get deeply depressed, I have been trying to take the pressure off myself -- rather than forcing myself to carry on as though I was OK, I am trying to give myself Depression Time. Take the time off, cancel everything except therapy, just be. Sure, it's Just Be depressed, but at least it's better than the alternative for me.llrrrpp responds-
I agree... one of my favorite things to do is spa afternoon. run a hot bath with epsom salts. do all of those self-maintenance things, like shaving and plucking and scrubbing. Then put a gooey cream on your feet, put some socks on, and find some nice smelling lotion. then you can put on your pjs and commence loafing. It's easier to feel better about yourself when you smell clean after a relaxing bath. and your feet will be soft for a few days afterwards too.
-ll
Posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2006, at 9:32:16
In reply to Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 14:14:17
What keeps you going when you loathe yourself so completely?
inertia. just inertia.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 9:35:12
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » ClearSkies, posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2006, at 9:32:16
> What keeps you going when you loathe yourself so completely?
>
> inertia. just inertia.Inertia is momentum too.
-ll
Posted by curtm on July 21, 2006, at 10:08:28
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » AuntieMel, posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 9:35:12
Kinetic energy (SI unit: the joule) is energy that a body possesses as a result of its motion. It is formally defined as the work needed to accelerate a body from rest to its current velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. Negative work of the same magnitude would be required to return the body to a state of rest from that velocity.
In simple cases, this work (and thus the kinetic energy) is equal to: 1/2mv^2
where m is the object's mass and v is the object's speed.
Posted by Racer on July 21, 2006, at 10:38:38
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » llrrrpp, posted by curtm on July 21, 2006, at 10:08:28
> In simple cases, this work (and thus the kinetic energy) is equal to: 1/2mv^2
>
>
> where m is the object's mass and v is the object's speed.
>
>But what is ^?
I'm serious, by the way. I've decided I like math...
So, now I think I oughta learn some math, so that I'll know what I'm liking...
Posted by curtm on July 21, 2006, at 10:41:33
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » curtm, posted by Racer on July 21, 2006, at 10:38:38
>> But what is ^?
^ IS "POWER"
^2 would be squared since superscript is not available here.
Posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 10:55:59
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » llrrrpp, posted by curtm on July 21, 2006, at 10:08:28
> Kinetic energy (SI unit: the joule) is energy that a body possesses as a result of its motion. It is formally defined as the work needed to accelerate a body from rest to its current velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. Negative work of the same magnitude would be required to return the body to a state of rest from that velocity.
>
> In simple cases, this work (and thus the kinetic energy) is equal to: 1/2mv^2
>
>
> where m is the object's mass and v is the object's speed.
>The wonderful thing about physics is that negative work is still work. it's equivalent to positive work.
Curtm, can you give me an equation for the amount of negative work required to get a moving body (like mine) who is off her rocker, to return to a lower energy state of being on her rocker?
LOL
Posted by AuntieMel on July 24, 2006, at 15:08:54
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » curtm, posted by llrrrpp on July 21, 2006, at 10:55:59
According to the equation, it is related to mass.
That's counter-intuitive. The heavier I get, the less it takes to get me to come to a stop.
Posted by curtm on July 24, 2006, at 16:09:40
In reply to Re: Ok, Curt, 'splaine this., posted by AuntieMel on July 24, 2006, at 15:08:54
That's easy. Friction.
Friction may be calculated thusly:
F = p * tWhere Friction is equal to the pleasure gained times the length of exposure to explosive situations.
PS not my original line, but funny. sorry
Posted by finelinebob on August 15, 2006, at 2:46:48
In reply to Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by ClearSkies on July 19, 2006, at 14:14:17
Close, but no cigar, CurtM
Energy is not really necessary to discuss inertia, but momentum is.
Inertia is the property of matter for it to maintain its state of motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Commonly, people tend to think of "inertia" as "stopped" or "sluggish", but scientifically that's not the full story.
In Newtonian mechanics, inertia is quantified in terms of momentum (p) which is equal to the mass of an object times its velocity or p = mv. So, to have a large value for p, you need to have a large mass, a high velocity, or both. In a frictionless environment, an object's momentum remains unchanged unless an opposing force is applied. Note that in this sense of momentum, velocity means the object has both a speed (rate of change of distance over a period of time) and a direction, making momentum itself a vector (something that has a direction and a size).
In a system with friction, friction always acts as a force in precisely the opposite direction of the motion of an object and, because of this, will eventually bring the object to a state of rest or 0 momentum. While it is possible that the physical consequences of the friction may result in the object losing mass, such a laying a patch of rubber on the road when you lock up your brakes (hard to do that these days), it is highly unlikely the mass of the object will drop to 0. It's more likely that the speed will drop to 0.
Mind you, there are several types of friction. In our case, we might consider sliding friction versus rolling friction. Sliding friction generates a larger opposing force than rolling friction, if the moving object is capable of rotating or not rotating.
So, to properly use the scientific concept of inertia in this case, "What keeps you going" implies that you are moving in the first place. Which is a Good Thing (tm). Introducing some sort of friction into the situation would be a Bad Thing (tm) since that could stop your motion and leave you in a state of 0 self-esteem.
----------
Oh, sorry, there was a question posed by CS:
"What keeps you going when you loathe yourself so completely?"My friends. I've tried to shoo them away, but they keep coming back. Even then, they let me know that I am valued (in specific terms and general terms) and loved.
Even if I'm at that complete loathing state (self-esteem = 0) my friends manage to apply a force (positive esteem) greater than any friction (negative esteem) I can mount to get me moving again.
Even if I have only one friend to depend on, the fact that that person sticks around means they have less loathing -- egahds! he or she might even actually LIKE you instead -- than you have for yourself means you're outgunned.
It's all just simple physics. If you have a single person who cares about you more than you care about yourself, then you're beat. You might as well just admit that they know more than you do and go with the flow.
Posted by ClearSkies on August 15, 2006, at 19:40:33
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by finelinebob on August 15, 2006, at 2:46:48
>
> It's all just simple physics. If you have a single person who cares about you more than you care about yourself, then you're beat. You might as well just admit that they know more than you do and go with the flow.
LOL!!
Thanks fineline.
Posted by cecilia on August 21, 2006, at 4:04:58
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by finelinebob on August 15, 2006, at 2:46:48
FineLineBob, that's nice for you that you have wonderful friends, but some of us are depressed BECAUSE we don't have any.
Posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 22:29:59
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » finelinebob, posted by cecilia on August 21, 2006, at 4:04:58
> FineLineBob, that's nice for you that you have wonderful friends, but some of us are depressed BECAUSE we don't have any.
Then it's time to figure out why. And I'm not talking about flimsy excuses like "I need to protect people from me", I'm talking about concrete behaviors such as self-isolation and how you do it, or what you might do to alienate people who would be your friend. Of course, you can't wave a magic wand and make those behaviors go away -- but they are BEHAVIORS.
If anything responds to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, it's recognizing the roots of maladative behaviors and working to change them.
I'm not a big fan of CBT for **me**, because I know the theory behind it intimately and I'm fantastic at undermining any efforts along these lines. That being said, it you and your T can indentify some issues of behavior that you want to change working with a CB Therapist for a while might be a good change, or adjust. I personally wouldn't want to work with one full time.
Posted by cecilia on August 24, 2006, at 3:00:50
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » cecilia, posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 22:29:59
What's the point? YOU have friends and are still depressed. I spent over $40,000 and 7 years in therapy trying to change myself into a person who knew the magic secret to friends and love and in the end my "paid friend/emotional prostitute (i.e. therapist) was fed up and gave up on me. It's too much work, trying to pretend to be a person who's likable, Of course I keep trying, but people generally still see the real you behind the fake "behavior". My therapist sure did, and
when she know longer needed the money, that was it. Cecilia
Posted by finelinebob on August 24, 2006, at 20:56:31
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » finelinebob, posted by cecilia on August 24, 2006, at 3:00:50
> What's the point?
"Never never never quit" -- Winston Churchill
There's not just one theory of depression or of how the brain works. Even within subdisciplines of psychology, there are different approaches to treating depression and neurological disorders. Go to the Psychology board. Start a thread. Describe what your therapy was like; ask others if they've had different approaches with their T.
You have choices. You may be too tired or disillusioned or broke or whatever to realize that. But you do. So before making one, use your peers here to help you educate yourself as to the possiblities. And if you try something new and you don't think it is working for you after a month or two, then stop. Come back, get more information. Try something different.
> YOU have friends and are still depressed.
Of course I am! I'm of Irish descent after all. Some Irish consider depression their national pasttime right behind football, or was it drinking. Or football AND drinking.
Until someone develops some gene therapy that will rewire my brain, I will be depressed. And anxious. And ADD. And OCD. And agoraphobic. And I'll probably be dealing with the consequences of PTSD for the rest of my life, too.
Maybe what turned me around was that I hated myself so much I wanted to give nothing to myself. So I started giving to others. There's great healing power in giving without any expectation of payback of any type. It's what got me started down the path -- YMMV.
It's hard, if not impossible, to have hope when you are so convinced that there is no good inside you. I believe that at their cores, all people are essentially good. You don't need to change your SELF. You may need to change your point of view. You may need to change your behaviors. But trying to be someone you are not -- you're right, it'll be fake and people will see it as such.
You already know the "magic secret to friends and love". It's buried under years of lies, from others, from yourself, probably even from that ridiculously expensive T who could do nothing for you. I can't say that I know how you feel or where you're at or what road you need to take -- no one knows those things but you. But you have to have faith (forget about an ounce of "proof") that that goodness is there, and you need to find a different path than what you've taken so far.
Posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2006, at 21:03:07
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by finelinebob on August 24, 2006, at 20:56:31
I agree l00%. And that's hard for me to do. Love Phillipa
Posted by curtm on August 25, 2006, at 8:55:27
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression, posted by finelinebob on August 24, 2006, at 20:56:31
>> It's hard, if not impossible, to have hope when you are so convinced that there is no good inside you. I believe that at their cores, all people are essentially good. You don't need to change your SELF. You may need to change your point of view. You may need to change your behaviors. But trying to be someone you are not -- you're right, it'll be fake and people will see it as such.
That is such great advice because I do have expectations and that often sets me up for disappointment. I expect certain behavior from other people, but when I look at mself I see that I don't even perform to those standards. Perhaps I am envious that I have issues that others don't and I take it out on them. This is really bringing on some heavy emotion right now. I think that is good. Thanks for bringing it up.
One story I have to share is about a time that a coworker who mocked my bipolarity and I got really really pissed and I screamed cursed and fingered him. He later came to apologize and I nodded. He remained present as if he expected a response and said, "I said I was sorry." I said "OK..." Did he need some sort of affirmation to validate his sincerity? True sincerity would not require that and that is what holding no expectations means to me.
>> Of course I am! I'm of Irish descent after all. Some Irish consider depression their national pasttime right behind football, or was it drinking. Or football AND drinking.
I'm Irish too. First line son of outlaws. Perhaps it's all in my blood. Ever hear the phrase by the English king, "The Irish aren't happy unless they have something to complain about?" I don't remeber which one said it right now and I might not have quoted it perfectly, but I really have some belief in it's truth.
Posted by finelinebob on August 25, 2006, at 21:00:43
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » finelinebob, posted by curtm on August 25, 2006, at 8:55:27
I don't accept apologies. Flat out. No.
True sincerity means the one who apologizes will change their actions. So no apology is needed. When it comes to forgiveness, what right have I to forgive? If someone harmed me, intentionally or unintentionally, and they come to regret it -- they need to forgive themselves for the sorrow they caused, to me and to themselves. And not do it again.
No one has ever hurt me more than I have hurt myself. Learning how to forgive myself made the apologies of others inconsequential. I only want healing for them.
[An' if ya choose ta have a different mind o'er it, let's you an' me step ouddada poob an' I'll teach ya yer manners!]
Posted by rfs on September 3, 2006, at 17:34:22
In reply to Re: Sustaining self esteem within depression » finelinebob, posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2006, at 21:03:07
> I agree l00%. And that's hard for me to do. Love Phillipa
Hi
I am on meds, but other then that, I am in a 12 step group AA. I find being with similar people helps. I look at them and see a group of people with problems and issues trying to cope and deal with them. I don't see them as bad or people to loathe. So it kind of comes back to me as being one of those people, and even if I am not feeling that way about myself, I figure that is how they feel about me.
Ray
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