![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 67 to 91 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by mattdds on June 8, 2003, at 18:31:03
In reply to Re: Another CBT question. Very specific. » mattdds, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2003, at 16:27:27
>>I really do believe that OCD, in some cases anyway, serves a useful purpose. Mind you, like most dysfunctional coping tools, it also causes problems. And perhaps in some cases it is a simple brain glitch where thoughts repeat. But I really do believe that in some cases it works as a pressure valve, or a better simile might be a controlled burn in a forest fire.
Absoulutely! I'm in 100% agreement here about this. Obsessive thoughts tend to get exacerbated when coping mechanisms fail. This is undisputed. I like your analogy of "whack-the-mole" (I hate that game!), it is so accurate. I think that CBT that fails to strengthen coping mechanisms is not really CBT, but cosmetic, patching psychotherapy.
I know when I am procrastinating things or otherwise avoiding dealing with something, I get an upsurge in generalized anxiety and panic attacks (which is just my own flavor of a pathological, psychic safety valve).
David Burns (sorry to mention his name again, but...) is a strong believer in this, and uses the "Hidden Emotion Technique", which is based on the assumption that anxiety (especially obsessive anxiety) stems from issues that are not being dealt with.
Do you have a tendency to procrastinate? Do you get overwhelmed easily? I ask this because you mentioned in your post to Shar that you had some things that you had let go (e.g. diet, finances). Certainly, if you are worried about these things on one level and are ignoring them, they could get expressed in some weird ways. I'm with Frued on this one!
So how about a *specific*, real-life problem that you are avoiding / not coping with well? These are highly accessible to CBT. Perhaps more than anything else!
I have learned some things that help with procrastination for me. If you are interested, I can start a new discussion or continue this one.
>>OK, I'm trying to be open minded and flexible about CBT. If you could try to be open minded about what I'm about to say, I'd appreciate it.
Sorry if I sounded dogmatic or pushy. One of my major flaws is trying to help people who don't solicit it; I do it with my whole family. It's like me getting new glasses and saying "hey, try these on, they really work!". Although I really am convinced (on nearly all levels) that CBT can be of at least some help to almost everyone.
So I apologize if I have sounded preachy. And I'll try to just listen better, how's that?
Best,
Matt
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2003, at 19:21:32
In reply to Re: Another CBT question. Very specific. » Dinah, posted by mattdds on June 8, 2003, at 18:31:03
>
> >>OK, I'm trying to be open minded and flexible about CBT. If you could try to be open minded about what I'm about to say, I'd appreciate it.
>
> Sorry if I sounded dogmatic or pushy. One of my major flaws is trying to help people who don't solicit it; I do it with my whole family. It's like me getting new glasses and saying "hey, try these on, they really work!". Although I really am convinced (on nearly all levels) that CBT can be of at least some help to almost everyone.
>
> So I apologize if I have sounded preachy. And I'll try to just listen better, how's that?
>
> Best,
>
> MattOh, Matt. I hope I didn't imply that. If so, I apologize. I think we've been having a very pleasant discussion, and I appreciate the effort you've gone to. It's just that the view of OCD as an adaptive (if inefficient and unpleasant) mechanism seems to have fallen out of favor. The purely biological explanation seems to be prevailing. So whenever I bring up my theory, I do it rather apologetically.
I don't really have a good idea of the underlying fears right now, other than a general one of being a grownup in the real world. I'm facing the medical and financial problems, if not with grace, then at least relatively realistically. :) I've got a million ways of distorted thinking, and I'm slowly working on them. Awareness is half the battle, right?
If I remember correctly, you've done your CBT work without a therapist? Or have I got you confused with someone else? If so, I really congratulate you. It takes a lot of self discipline and rigorous self examination even with a therapist, and even moreso without one.
And if you've found something that works for you so well, it would be natural for you to want to share it with everyone.
Thanks again.
Dinah
Posted by habbyshabit on June 8, 2003, at 22:56:05
In reply to CBT and metacognition » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on June 2, 2003, at 1:55:30
Matt,
I really like the idea of metacognition. I'm am quite familliar with both CBT and Tibetan Buddhist Mindfulness meditation. I think if you read H. H. The Dalai Lama's book "Transforming the Mind" you'd find he was describing metacognition - though not in those words of course.
Training the mind is a lifetime opportunity. I have found incredible changes in my perspective and life experience through "watching my mind".
Your writing is impressive. I haven't read much of this thread. I am new here, but I just needed to comment on your discovery of "secular buddhism". That's what I feel like in my life mostly, a secular jewish/buddhist. Mindfullness meditation and practice has really changed my world. I've delt with manic-depression for over almost 30 years, so I had a lot to work with!
Habby
Posted by lucy_fyrr on June 8, 2003, at 23:33:36
In reply to Found Psychological Babble - ready to babble;, posted by Squiggles on June 1, 2003, at 11:36:38
hi everyone, I've read over a couple of random threads over the past month or so, and now I'm just about ready to post my own.
Here it goes...
I have a long history of depression, anxiety, marked by several nervous and emotional breakdowns. Currently, I'm on Prozac, and unlike other times, I do not see a psychiatrist. (Hopefully, though, I will find a psychiatrist once I get back home from my vacation)
I'm not very trusting of drugs, but I got to a very low point at which I was very desperate so I agreed to try this Prozac. During this low point, I had a flood of suicidal thoughts interchanged with cravings for cocaine or amphetamines. I generally have a bad relationship with drugs of most sorts. I become easily addicted.
Anyhow, I went to my reg. doctor to see my blood test results. (I had gotten a blood test done because I recently put on quite a bit of weight during a short period of time). The doc told me my results were fine, so I admit that the weight gain must have been due to my depression... my doc suggested Prozac.
She took a look at my body, and weighed me. She claimed that Prozac would help me lose some weight and that it should help. I had never before been told that I needed to lose some weight, it was always quite the opposite. I was anorexic on and off for about three and a half years, and only lately did I recover. I am currently (what I think is) a normal weight (5'7, 127lbs.) I don't want to fall back into my awful obsession of exercising and counting calories, but then again, I don't want to put on anymore weight. I've already gained 20lbs over the past year and a half, I don't know if I could handle anymore. It's very depressing to see my body become fatter.
I've only been on prozac for 2 weeks so I'm not feeling very much yet. I've been sleeping a lot more than usual, and my mind was a little cloudy the first couple of days, but otherwise nothing physical has changed significantly. My depression has cooled down a bit. I don't have half as many suicidal thoughts, but my outlook isn't exactly the most sunny. But I guess I prefer feeling some sadness than not being able to tap into that part of me at all.
Last year I was on Effexor, but I took myself off of it after 3 months because it was making me numb. I was not able to feel anger or sadness. I don't know if my dose was too high, but nevertheless I didn't react to it well.
I apologize now for my excessively long post.
But there's a question of sorts in here...
I am feeling nearly like myself, but I am not sure if it would be a good idea to be on prozac for an extended period of time? if I should try to deal without it? or if I should take it during times when I need it?
It would be great to hear about anyone else's experiences with coming off of prozac, or any other experiences with any SSRIs. I am a university student, so i'm very concerned with how SSRIs may affect concentration skills, or anything study-related.
This forum is a great idea, and thanks for reading if you got this far.
bye for now.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2003, at 3:31:11
In reply to Re: CBT and metacognition » mattdds, posted by habbyshabit on June 8, 2003, at 22:56:05
> I think if you read H. H. The Dalai Lama's book "Transforming the Mind" you'd find he was describing metacognition - though not in those words of course.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2003, at 3:34:49
In reply to hello, new to the board, posted by lucy_fyrr on June 8, 2003, at 23:33:36
> hi everyone, I've read over a couple of random threads over the past month or so, and now I'm just about ready to post my own.
> Here it goes...
> I have a long history of depression, anxiety, marked by several nervous and emotional breakdowns. Currently, I'm on Prozac, and unlike other times, I do not see a psychiatrist...Welcome! And sorry if it's confusing here, Psycho-Babble is the board for medication-related questions. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030604/msgs/232552.html
Bob
Posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:04:31
In reply to Re: double double quotes » habbyshabit, posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2003, at 3:31:11
Thanks! Dr. Bob. I had not read that part of your web site. "Transforming the Mind" Thought I'd give it a try. It is a good book for those seeking psychological change through thought transformation.
Habby
Posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:15:33
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Dr. Bob, posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:04:31
I tried the link created and it didn't take me to that book at all. In fact I had to do a search under The Dalai Lama's name as author to find it in a list of over 200 books. It was #24 on that list. Hmmm? Maybe this should be redirected to administrative thread or book thread, but just wanted to say what happened.
Habby
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 10:35:10
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Dr. Bob, posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:04:31
> Thanks! Dr. Bob. I had not read that part of your web site. "Transforming the Mind" Thought I'd give it a try. It is a good book for those seeking psychological change through thought transformation.
>
> HabbyHabby, it should have looked like this:
"Transforming the Mind"
double double quotesLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 10:47:04
In reply to Re: Accepting intrusive thinking » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on June 8, 2003, at 11:05:55
> Hey Larry,
>
> Good to see you here again!Thanks. I'm glad we're doing this examination of cognition.
> Thanks Larry, these are great insights! Sounds like you reinvented Adrian Wells' wheel without even knowing it! You seem to have a grasp on things that 99% of clinicians don't!
>
> Best,
>
> MattReally? That's your impression, that 99% of clinicians don't grasp these ideas fully?
That was really kind of you to say what you did about my own cognitive processes.
Yes, I've borrowed from many sources, but it has become a very personal/subjective technique for me. I have my own terms for major concepts. For example, I've been calling metacognition "pseudo-objectivity" for some time now. Pseudo, because no one can be perfectly objective via a subjective process. But it is the same thing, adopting a third-party observer status with respect to the self.
Just a few days ago, I was discussing with my own cognitive therapist what my future might hold for me, given my continued gradual improvement. I know I don't want to be a trucker for the next twenty years. My therapist, totally of his own initiative (he brought the topic of my future up, not me), suggested that I consider becoming a therapist. Specifically, an addictions counsellor. It kind of took me off guard, my therapist suggesting I'd make a good therapist. I have a degree in psych.....going into counselling isn't too much of a stretch, qualification wise.
Something to think about, I guess. I'm not at a place where a decision is necessary, so it's just a thinking point.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 10:59:10
In reply to Re: responsibility vs. blame » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2003, at 15:46:13
> Hmmm, perhaps with all this help, I'm getting a glimmer.
That's very good news.
>But it takes a while for things to sink in for me.
That's how it is for everybody. When you try to grasp a new cognition, at first you find that to be difficult or impossible. But that's only because the cognition itself has no experiential base in your patterns of thinking.
You may get an "A-hah!" moment along the way, but that usually happens after the glimmer of comprehension has taken root in the psyche. The light-bulb moment is the recognition of the validity of the cognition in your real-time experience. Kind of like, "Oh, there's one! Now I get it!" But first, you have to have the glimmer. It's a process, not just for you, but for all people.
> It took me twenty years to understand the song "Amazing Grace".
Well, you're way ahead of me on that one. Amazing Grace is over my head (though I'll admit to not putting much effort into it).
>I'll cogitate on the matter, and hope for an ah-hah experience.
You will not get an "A-hah!" from cogitation. Cogitation may help you prepare yourself for the new idea, but the evidence comes from observation. You have to see yourself acting in the way predicted by the new cognition, to make it valid for you.
You may have seen my earlier posting of this phrase, but it speaks to this process, so I'll repeat it here:
"You can't think you way into a new way of acting, but you can act your way into a new way of thinking."
> Thanks for your patience. :)You're welcome. Thanks for having an open mind, and the courage to express your personal issues to us.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 11:09:32
In reply to Re: double double quotes » habbyshabit, posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:15:33
> I tried the link created and it didn't take me to that book at all. In fact I had to do a search under The Dalai Lama's name as author to find it in a list of over 200 books. It was #24 on that list. Hmmm? Maybe this should be redirected to administrative thread or book thread, but just wanted to say what happened.
>
> HabbyYou're right. Please accept my apologies. I didn't realize the second set of double quotes didn't come through in the actual posting. I put two sets around the title, but only one was visible in the final product. And, like you, I found that the desired book was not directly linked.
Lar
Posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 12:10:22
In reply to Re: Accepting intrusive thinking » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 10:47:04
Lar, regarding your concept of a third party observer to the thinking mind; I have heard it called and call it myself 'the witness'. In other words, I am witnessing my thoughts, I am not my thoughts. Just another way of putting the concept into words. It's good to see that there are others working with these concepts outside of a buddhist framework. I think that some of it goes beyond CBT theory, though I've never actually had a cognitive therapist before...
Habby
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 12:34:37
In reply to Re: Accepting intrusive thinking » Larry Hoover, posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 12:10:22
> Lar, regarding your concept of a third party observer to the thinking mind; I have heard it called and call it myself 'the witness'. In other words, I am witnessing my thoughts, I am not my thoughts. Just another way of putting the concept into words.
Yes, I agree, witness conveys much the same concept.....however, my personal preference lies more towards "chairperson", because certain voices are easily drowned out. When I think of the voice of my spiritual self, it never speaks loudly. It's not an aspect of its existence to be loud. One of the attributes of a chairperson is to give each voice undivided attention.
Meditation is one way to give the spirit undivided attention, but it is not the only way to do so.
>It's good to see that there are others working with these concepts outside of a buddhist framework. I think that some of it goes beyond CBT theory, though I've never actually had a cognitive therapist before...
>
> HabbySome of my insight arises from 12-step work. In that method of recovery, we speak of a spiritual disorder as the root of the "disease". Even the word disease is quite useful, in a variety of contexts. It arises from an Old French word, "diseasu", meaning "not at peace". And, how can you be at peace when you are in denial about any aspect of your being?
Absolutely, quite apart from CBT, there are applications of this mindfulness. Self-respect, IMHO, arises from respecting all aspects of our being, not from selecting certain components (implicit approval), and denying others (rejection).
Lar
Posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 13:09:19
In reply to Re: Accepting intrusive thinking » habbyshabit, posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 12:34:37
Larry,
It gave me a chuckle when you referred to the witness as the chairperson, a quietly speaking one at that! It also reminded me of the phrase, 'the still small voice within' as a way of talking about the voice of spirit. However, I have found, over time, that that small voice is not only not small, but neither is it still - indeed it's a rather large part of my consciousness - if quiet indeed.
I find the voice of my spirit/soul to be soft and really have no sound as I usually think of it. Like recalling the voice of a person one knows well, you can actually hear the tone and inflections and resonance of that remembered voice. The sound of my 'witness' has no such human quality. I guess it's monotone with out being monotonous!
I too have done recovery/12 step work. One of the aspects of the 12 Step Program that drew me to it was that it recognized the spiritual nature underlying dis-ease, to use a new-age version of the word.
Also, we are in complete agreement regarding the nature of mindfulness practice. If one is judging oneself and accepting and aggrandizing what one finds is good about oneself while avoiding and denigrating that which is personally felt to be negative, then that is not true mindfulness practice. That is common thinking running amok as is the nature of thoughts themselves.
Thanks for the enjoyable conversation. I guess it’s always nice to find someone who relates to themselves and the world in a similar fashion, unfettered by religious trappings.
Habby
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 9, 2003, at 17:39:53
In reply to Re: double double quotes » habbyshabit, posted by habbyshabit on June 9, 2003, at 10:15:33
> I tried the link created and it didn't take me to that book at all. In fact I had to do a search under The Dalai Lama's name as author to find it in a list of over 200 books. It was #24 on that list. Hmmm? Maybe this should be redirected to administrative thread or book thread...
Good idea, here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030508/msgs/232702.html
Bob
Posted by shar on June 10, 2003, at 12:37:11
In reply to Re: But if I do bad things, aren't I bad? » shar, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2003, at 15:51:54
> Hi Shar. My more emotional self focuses a lot on good and bad, and does tend to believe that I'm a good girl if I do good, or a bad girl if I do bad (or make someone angry, or any number of things).
...........Well, I'm happy to hear you do get credit for being a good girl when you're good. I suspect, however, that being good has a much more limited definition or set of behaviors than the being bad one does.
>
> I am overcome with my natural consequences and rather obsessed with the idea that it is because I was bad. Because if I had been good, these things wouldn't be happening..........Please forgive my focus on machine-like logic, but, during the whole time you were ignoring your diet and developing financial troubles...you WERE good, at times. That's the deal, I think, it's not all bad or good; it's a mix of both.
>
> Sigh. I know it's an immature way of looking at things, but I can be quite immature..........lol, I'll join your club if you'll let me! I am (at my house) at least the Princess of Immaturity, if not the Queen! Immaturity (whatever that is) is ingrained in us, probably a gene or something; I don't believe I know one "adult" who is 100% mature (whatever that is), and who'd want to be anyway? I can see the appeal if a form of thinking is not helpful (and called immature) that one might want to change it. However, I'd encourage you to see it as 'not helpful' rather than immature, because the latter has societally negative overtones that if we buy into will be even less helpful to us. Maybe even double plus ungood!
.........I know I must grate on you, but til you tell me 'don't talk to me anymore' I'll probably keep on.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on June 10, 2003, at 16:17:50
In reply to Re: But if I do bad things, aren't I bad? » Dinah, posted by shar on June 10, 2003, at 12:37:11
>
> .........I know I must grate on you, but til you tell me 'don't talk to me anymore' I'll probably keep on.
>
> Shar
>
Grate on me?!!! Never!! Honestly, I know I'd say similar things to someone else. It's just hard to be logical with ourselves.And I don't believe in the don't talk to me rule, so it would really take something remarkable to get me to invoke that.
Your insight is welcomed anytime.
Posted by mattdds on June 10, 2003, at 16:47:43
In reply to Re: Accepting intrusive thinking » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2003, at 10:47:04
>>Just a few days ago, I was discussing with my own cognitive therapist what my future might hold for me, given my continued gradual improvement. I know I don't want to be a trucker for the next twenty years. My therapist, totally of his own initiative (he brought the topic of my future up, not me), suggested that I consider becoming a therapist.
Interesting, I was going to (on my own initiative) suggest that you consider being a psychotherapist as well! I think you'd be very successful at it, and it really seems to be something you enjoy.
Like you say, not something you have to decide right away, but the fact that people are suggesting it out of the blue is worth noting.
If you think about it, you already are a psychotherapist of sorts, to many people on this board. Hell, you might as well be getting paid for it! If you do, be sure I get your business card so I can set up an appointment.
Take care,
Matt
Posted by mattdds on June 10, 2003, at 17:16:11
In reply to Re: CBT and metacognition » mattdds, posted by habbyshabit on June 8, 2003, at 22:56:05
>>Your writing is impressive. I haven't read much of this thread. I am new here, but I just needed to comment on your discovery of "secular buddhism". That's what I feel like in my life mostly, a secular jewish/buddhist. Mindfullness meditation and practice has really changed my world. I've delt with manic-depression for over almost 30 years, so I had a lot to work with!
Habby,
Thank you for your comments! Sometimes I feel alone in my spiritual path, but it's good to know there are others who think alike. I was raised in a religious Mormon family, but am pretty much agnostic now in my late 20's. Perhaps leaving formal religion left a void that I've been attempting to fill with psychotherapy!
For me, being secular / agnostic gives me the chance to take all the pearls of wisdom from religion (Buddhism, Christianity, Mormonism) and leave behind all the guilty baggage I used to carry around from extreme religiousness. Psychotherapy is my breed of "spiritual" growth, but now I guess "spritual" has a different meaning. It is not an ethereal, amorphous or intangible concept. It has to do with tangible growth, e.g. learning, relationships, love, self-acceptance.
But interstingly, I still go to church sometimes, even thought I'm a non-believer. Go figure!
Best,
Matt
Posted by mattdds on June 10, 2003, at 17:20:20
In reply to Re: CBT and metacognition, posted by mattdds on June 10, 2003, at 17:16:11
Posted by Ilene on July 9, 2003, at 22:28:36
In reply to Re: Found Psychological Babble - p.s. memory » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 9:20:24
>
> With reference to the 30-year passage of time issue.....
>
> Unexamined issues, the skeletons in your closet, remain suspended in time. They don't go away. They don't change. They just wait. If you never examine them, they remain. If it takes thirty years, so what? It's irrelevant.
>
> Lar
This is something I don't quite grasp: Examining your issues, and ruminating. What's the diff?Ilene
Posted by Ilene on July 9, 2003, at 23:03:19
In reply to Re: But if I do bad things, aren't I bad?, posted by mattdds on June 7, 2003, at 13:19:21
If you do not get better, then it is OK!
I've been doing everything I can think of to get better, and it is 100% not OK to not get better (if you can get around the double negative).
Why would I embark on a treatment if it was OK for me not to get better? "Oh, we didn't cure your cancer, but that's OK!"
Ilene
Posted by Ilene on July 9, 2003, at 23:21:49
In reply to Re: Another CBT question. Very specific., posted by Oddipus Rex on June 7, 2003, at 14:47:53
> One thought that occurred to me is that you may be "white-knuckling" it through these situations and it might work better to gradually desensitize yourself. That is, you would stay in the situation which was evoking these thoughts until you reached a stage of moderate discomfort and then retreat until you returned to a normal level of comfort and then return again and stay until you reach a stage of moderate discomfort,etc.I recognize the theory, but I've never been able to put it into practice. What doesn't kill me doesn't make me strong, it makes me worse.
Ilene
Posted by Dinah on July 10, 2003, at 7:56:25
In reply to Re: Another CBT question. Very specific. » Oddipus Rex, posted by Ilene on July 9, 2003, at 23:21:49
>
>
> I recognize the theory, but I've never been able to put it into practice. What doesn't kill me doesn't make me strong, it makes me worse.
>
> IleneIlene, my own possibly warped analogy is to a pot being fired. Usually putting the pot in intense heat makes it strong. But pots with flaws will crack under the intense heat. And I'm one cracked pot. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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