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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 55. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
My therapist wanted me to identify areas that I'd like to work on in therapy, and I identified the fact that my daydreams disappeared over eight years ago when he asked about them. I refused to tell him about them, but the daydreams disappeared and only came back a couple of days a year ago last November.
So I told him that that's what I'd like to work on, and he said he didn't understand why they vanished and didn't know how to help me. I asked if telling him about them would help, and he said he didn't know, it might make them go away forever. But since eight years is pretty much forever anyway, I went ahead and tried telling him about them.
Basically before third or fourth grade I had imaginary friends. But starting in third or fourth grade, I started this ongoing fantasy life. It grew and expanded into an alternate fantasy universe, filled with a wide cast of characters, each with their own stories. The characters interacted with each other consistently. There was a history to everything, and while it evolved over time, it stayed basically true to itself. I could add to the story, or go anywhere in the history and "rerun" parts of it. I made dozens of notebooks full of biographies and "diaries" and drawings. Most of those were done in middle or early high school, I think.
Sometime in college, late college, I think, I abandoned that daydream universe and started a new one. It had a different premise and different characters, but was similarly complex and internally consistent. Again, I could add to it or go anywhere into the story and replay parts. Actually, it was more of a saga, with several generations of people and worlds I could choose from. I didn't do written documentation on this one. :)
So I told him all about this, and asked for his help in getting it back. First he waffled, saying he didn't know how to help. And I told him that was ok, I just wanted to know we were working together on it, even if we didn't know the way to make it work. Then he admitted that he didn't know if he wanted to help me get it back.
He said that it wasn't normal or average or whatever to have such a detailed alternate universe that I retreated to as frequently as I did. He said that people daydream more haphazardly. That they might daydream they were on the beach in Tahiti, or wonder what people were talking about, or something like that. But they didn't do this intricate daydreaming. And I asked if he was sure. That maybe that was just him, and other people did it? And he said no. That if I had told him at the time that he would have marked it down as something... unusual, and that he still thought it was unusual. And that he didn't know if it was healthy for him to try and help me get it back.
Does anyone else have an intricate daydream world? Is it really unusual or pathological?
He also seriously alarmed me by telling me that maybe the purpose of my daydreaming was now served by therapy instead. Geez. How can that be? Therapy is a couple of hours a week. Daydreaming was many hours a day. And I'm not sure it's a fair trade. In fact I'm pretty sure it isn't. I was a lot happier when I was daydreaming. And it was cheaper...
Any opinions?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 2, 2004, at 17:03:09
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Dinah,
I would so love to be in your alternate universes! I can see how you would like to get them back. In answer to your question, I daydream all the time. Not quite as intricate as you perhaps, but there are constant scenarios running through my head and I even have a couple of characters I like to call upon. I thought everyone did this! I thought everyone had their own sort of inner universe. This is not true? I'm being serious here.
Also, how's day 2 of the new name coming along?
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 17:23:46
In reply to Re: What do you think?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 2, 2004, at 17:03:09
Well, I certainly thought it was true!
Perhaps my therapist has an impoverished imagination. And perhaps his twenty years worth of clients didn't share this part of themselves with him. I don't know. He made it sound very odd...
I posted to you about my name change on Social.
Posted by fallsfall on March 2, 2004, at 17:27:12
In reply to Re: What do you think? » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 17:23:46
Sorry, I'm one of those with an "impoverished imagination"...
Sounds like fun, though.
Posted by badhaircut on March 2, 2004, at 17:32:45
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
I've spent most of my life fantasizing. (You're about the first person I've told!) From about the same age as you. When I was little, it was a complex world with recurring characters. Many of my storylines were borrowed from TV shows.
As I got older, the fantasies became more broken-up, but I would repeat my favorites several times a day. They were mostly very boring, mundane topics, although they usually involved more money or prestige or friends than I actually had.
I only admitted to myself last year that I've been a big-time fantasizer. I came to that recognition after realizing that I'm pretty avoidant. When I'm about to think of or feel something uncomfortable, I get up, move around, distract myself, (check Babble!), whatever, just to keep from thinking/feeling something anxious. AND I also slip into convenient stress-relieving fantasies.
I think my fantasies are harmless except that sometimes I've had trouble stopping them. And using them to avoid scary feelings isn't the most helpful tactic.
Once, following David Burns's CBT advice for something else, I counted with a clicker how many times in a day I started fantasizing. In HALF a day, I got to 170.
So now I'm a little more deliberately aware of the fantasizing, and a lot of the times I can ask myself, "Are you avoiding something right now?" And usually it's pretty obvious to me exactly what hairy thing I'd rather not deal with. Not that I do deal with it, even when I interrupt the fantasy in that way.
A few months ago I looked all over the web for discussions of that kind of fantasizing (like you describe). I found only two threads, neither on Babble, but judging by the responses, frequent fantasy is *very* common.
The psychoanalytic writers (who have always been the most creative & prolific in psychology) are the only ones I remember dealing with it. Especially Melanie Klein's people – although they think *everything* is a "Phantasy."
Dinah, I'm so glad you brought it up. It sounds like it really threw your therapist! I've always considered my most shameful secret.
-bhc
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 17:33:36
In reply to Re: What do you think? » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 2, 2004, at 17:27:12
Didn't intend to accidentally insult anyone - except maybe my therapist.
(blush)
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 17:39:31
In reply to Re: What do you think? » Dinah, posted by badhaircut on March 2, 2004, at 17:32:45
Why shameful? I pretty much fantasized all the time I wasn't doing anything that required full concentration, and I didn't mind it a bit. I'd happily go back. I always knew what was fantasy and what was reality (my fantasies didn't leave a lot of room for doubt as they were not at *all* mundane). I don't think I'd ever *try* to cut down on them. I can't figure out why my therapist doesn't approve.
I spent most of third grade with my desk as an island and my hands as the two people stuck on it, having to climb the mountain of my body with my hair ropes to speak to the volcano god (my mouth). And if they fell into the sea (off the desk) the sea monsters (my knees) would eat them. It got me through some boring classes though in retrospect the movements involved probably did nothing for my reputation. lol.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 2, 2004, at 17:42:26
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
A lot of my fantasizing as a child involved Gnomes. I was obsessed. My gnome name was Mabel. I had secret magic powers.
Around adolescence I gave up the gnomes and lived as a secret agent, imagining I looked like "99" from GEt Smart.
I am currently a world famous flamenco dancer named Paloma who drinks lots of Spanish wine, has lots of lovers, and dances with gypsies bathed in moonlight. I like this fantasy.
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 17:47:22
In reply to Re: What do you think?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 2, 2004, at 17:42:26
WOW!!! Get Smart? My first fantasy, the one that lasted into my early twenties, revolved around Get Smart, although new characters were introduced over the years. :) I wasn't 99, but she and Max were key players all along.
Posted by Rigby on March 2, 2004, at 18:25:17
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Hi Dinah,
This was so interesting to read. I have a *very* active imagination that, over the past several years has been channeled into screenplay writing.
My *mother* actually had a highly intricate world--in fact there were sets of moms--like whole series and categories of 'em. There were several worlds layered into it too. I grew up mostly with one of the key players in her universe who truly wasn't the woman my mother showed to the outside world. When I talked about this to my therapist she sat there both fascinated and really sad. I never thought about it being sad until I began looking at things a bit more closely.
My mother's mother was a pretty severe schizophrenic which lead to my mother never really having much of a childhood. So she became a child when she had children and we lived in this world to kind of service her and her personalities. On the one hand, I credit my upbringing with a "sky's the limit" imagination. On the other, being unable to tell what was real, being "used" to service her in her worlds were things that messed me up too.
I am not sure if rekindling previous worlds and fantasies is a good thing or not. My feel is that you'd want to move more toward living out your life (and fantasies!) versus a retreat inward into imagination?
Anyway, I'm rambling a bit. Thank you for sharing and for bringing out such an interesting topic!
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 18:39:10
In reply to Re: What do you think?, posted by Rigby on March 2, 2004, at 18:25:17
Oh, Rigby. That really is sad. It must have made for a very confusing childhood. My worlds never involved anyone else in them. They were purely internal. Just daydreams, but highly enjoyable ones. I would never dream of including my son or anyone else in them. In fact, I even refused to divulge the contents to my therapist until now when I can't retrieve them, because they *are* private. And would be pretty silly if exposed to reality as well. But silly is nice inside.
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 18:47:31
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
My therapist wanted to see them.
They're dated from age 13 to age 18 (which I must confess is a bit embarassing). I have already long since shredded all the interesting ones, the "diaries" or the ones involving the history or plotlines. All that are left are a bunch of incomprehensible (even to me) lists of names and dates and numbers. I'm sure it meant something at the time. Perhaps they crossreference, though there's no key. And since I don't remember most of the names it's not really worth trying to figure out. And one notebook with "pictures" and brief bios. This was all from the first fantasy.
I'm going to write down what I can remember from the second fantasy too. Cast of characters, etc. Maybe not the storyline.
But the question is, will I show it to my therapist? And the answer is probably not. I'll show him the pages from across the room so he can't read the silliness. :)
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 2, 2004, at 19:00:50
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
(((Dinah))),
Organize your notes into children's stories. How do you think Tolkien and the "Harry Potter" lady really got started. They are story tellers. Just tell us some stories. You no longer have to blame yourself. And this time you can write in plot resolution. In the 4th grade, who knows from resolution, especially plot resolution.
What a great opportunity you have sitting waiting to be [explored] (can't think of the right word here).
Just tell us some stories over at the writing board. We'll be your first kids to read them. Perfect them and get them proof read and go make money! "Writer's Digest" .com is screaming for children's stories to be published.
Rod
Posted by gardenergirl on March 2, 2004, at 19:03:16
In reply to Re: What do you think?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 2, 2004, at 17:42:26
Paloma sounds really cool!
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 19:15:41
In reply to Re: My dear, what a gold mine you have.... » Dinah, posted by 64Bowtie on March 2, 2004, at 19:00:50
Posted by DaisyM on March 2, 2004, at 19:48:09
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
I think he was alarmed because when life is hard it is *easier* to set yourself adrift in a world of characters that you control. Real life is harder but ultimately so much more rewarding.
I think there is a difference between "story-telling" fantasy that you are consciously creating and daydreams, which take over when you are bored. I think as long as you aren't escaping into the fantasy, it is OK.
And, my dear, aren't you always telling me you can share ANYTHING with your Therapist? No matter how shameful or silly?
Posted by Racer on March 2, 2004, at 21:37:37
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
They had their own fantasy world, which they shared with one another, and wrote histories of. It's what started their writing careers. I agree with DaisyM that it may be too easy a place to retreat to, but it might also be a way for you to channel some of your energies. Write an ongoing journal of another world, maybe. (Listen, after reading a lot of the sci-fi/fantasy out there these days, I *know* you could do better with one arm tied behind your back and duct tape over your mouth!)
Maybe talk to your T about doing something like this? See if it gives you back some of the creativity you're missing?
Posted by pegasus on March 2, 2004, at 22:27:55
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Dinah, your "daydreams" sound so fascinating! I have to admit that I've never done anything remotely like that. As I read your description I had a lot of really complicated feelings. On the one hand, I am amazed and impressed at your imagination and creativity. And I'm kind of jealous that you managed to create this really interesting interior world that rescued you from boredom etc. On the other hand, it sounds a little dangerous to spend so much time and creative energy on things that are internal entertainment for yourself alone. I guess I mean that all that time spent in fantasizing means time not spent in your real life. And that's a lot of time not in your real life.
Lately I've been trying to be more aware of what's going on in my real life, and spend less time living in the future and past and in fantasies. This effort was encouraged by my old T. I think the idea is that when you are off in your head, you are missing things that are happening in your real life, good and bad. And I guess missing even bad stuff can cause problems. Here I get a little lost.
But I have a little example of how this effort has helped me recently. I was at an exercise class, a little early, and just laying there on my mat. I was thinking how much I didn't want class to start because I wanted to just lay there and relax. I started thinking about the exercises and how I don't like the teacher, etc. Then I remembered to try to be in the moment. So I let go of those thoughts and just relaxed and enjoyed the feeling of laying there. It was a great little epiphany. I had been ruining my own little moment of relaxation by living just a few minutes in the future instead of in that moment. I find that it takes practice to be able to bring myself in from that type of fantasy.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
- p
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 3, 2004, at 1:49:41
In reply to I didn't say they were *good* stories. LOL. (nm) » 64Bowtie, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 19:15:41
Your obliging humility won't shut me up....lol
(((Dinah))),
I mean what I said.
I expected you to complain that reminiscing would dredge up toooo much pain. I am encouraged that you are not afraid of the memories. This will allow you to modify the original memories, turning them into good stories with interesting characters.
I have noticed that at times, people have believed in me more than I believed in myself. Is this one of those times for you? If this is, don't overreact, please. Just find a quiet place and start journaling. If you trust us, journal for us at the writing board.
I gotta warn you. I've been saying these same things to my 21 year old son who has periods when he writes night and day, and other times when he hates pencils and paper so much he throws everything in the trash. Soooo, I'm conditioned to hang in there and keep encouraging him during his worst creativity meltdowns, so I can overcome any objections you might have, too.
He wrote a script for a 15 minute short movie he produced and directed called "The Reggae Cowboy". A silly surrealistic yarn about a cannibalistic mental patient with the supernatural abilities of immense strength and to be in two places at once. The character was addicted to riding mecahincal bulls and wore dreadlocks and a cowboy hat.
My Son was a senior in High School and got the highest grade in the class, even with it being really disturbing.
Back to your talent. Go getem' Girl.
Rod
Posted by tinydancer on March 3, 2004, at 4:23:37
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
This is really fascinating to me. You didn't mention anything about disassociating, which surprises me. With the enormity, dedication and detail it seems a lot like what people with multiple personalities experience. Except your universe sounds much more pleasant. Mine is always in flux, and involves a lot of nasty characters, and my control level for designing the "set" is zero.
I am interested by the fact you call it daydreaming or fantasizing. Not that I want to diagnose you with a mental illness here, but as a person with DID I'm sort of interested in the disassociation side of this universe you created. Any thoughts on that?
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2004, at 9:06:24
In reply to Re: What do you think? » Dinah, posted by tinydancer on March 3, 2004, at 4:23:37
I dissociate as well. It's my favorite coping mechanism, and I admittedly overuse it. I don't have DID or lose time, but I dissociate a fair amount. But this isn't dissociation. Except for the fact that I immersed myelf in it and lost track of time, etc. No different than reading a book or watching a movie.
My understanding is that in DID, the different personalities live real lives? Not imaginary fantastical ones. And are "real" people? And on occasion take over the physical body? And that while they might have different perspectives on a person's general history, or memories that only some parts remember but others dont, that their parents would be the same for instance? At least, that's my understanding. That the multiple selves aren't imaginary and don't lead imaginary lives.
The first fantasy was clearly an imaginary world to me. I knew it was imaginary, although a much more beautiful, intelligent, and sociable me was the central character. Same name, etc.
I'm not even sure the central characters of the second fantasy were supposed to be me. It was more of a novel or soap opera I think. The name wasn't me. The looks weren't even close to mine, never mind beauty, but even in coloring. The history wasn't close to mine or anything that ever happened to me. And it was multigenerationsal, spanning centuries. And I don't think I even saw it through the eyes of the main character. I was watching her, not being her.
It was also fairly derivative, borrowing heavily from TV, books, and movies.
My understanding of ego states is that the experience is far different. This is more like a little girl's world of imagination. Like the giant robot who accompanied me everywhere when I was four. :)
Posted by lookdownfish on March 3, 2004, at 9:39:26
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
When I was younger I used to create quite intricate stories in my head. I was a little boy who was kidnapped and sold as a slave and sent off on a ship and tortured and whipped and beaten. Analyse that. Nowadays, it's all rather mundane, eg I fantasise about meeting my therapist when I'm out shopping or something like that. I don't create the really intricate detailed stories any more. and I don't miss it. I don't think its necessarily unhealthy or abnormal, but it is an escape from real life, so in that sense, I can see why your therapist would prefer you to not get back to that kind of intricate daydreaming, as it is a defence mechanism against facing real-life issues.
Posted by All Done on March 3, 2004, at 10:16:34
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Dinah,
I would just love to share your brain for a day! You never cease to amaze me or interest me!
You know, my mom used to make up a lot of my bedtime stories. They were pretty intricate as it would take me an awfully long time to fall asleep. Or, maybe it would take me a long time to fall asleep because they were so intricate and I just *had* to hear the endings. Anyway, these stories were *so* much better than any of the books we read together (and there were tons of those). I truly believe this helped me to develop my own imagination and creativity and I had wonderful fantasies when I was younger. I also think that by utilizing this part of my brain, I was more successful with my schoolwork albeit less successful with the social part of school. Life is a series of tradeoffs, I suppose. Unfortunately, it seems the older I get, the less I use my imagination :(.
I think it would be a wonderful thing for you and your therapist to explore your creativity. I'm not quite sure why he's hesitant. And if, as your therapist suggests, therapy is supposed to fulfill whatever need it is that we get from daydreaming, I'm doing therapy all wrong. I better rework my "agenda" for next week :).
All Done
Posted by Joslynn on March 3, 2004, at 11:35:46
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Look at JRR Tolkien, he created this complete fantasy world and now it' s won 11 grammies.
However, he did share it with the world. I like the idea of writing children's stories.
When I was younger, say from about 8-14, I had a fantasy world too, but I guess it was more suburban than yours. I daydreamed about a character named Valleri Laurence, who had long curly black hair and blue eyes. She lived in Roseberry Valley and had normal parents who didn't yell.
I would turn on my AM radio and spin out intricate fantasies involving her, her friends, her cute boyfriend and her cheerleading career, LOL.
In my mid to late teens, I even wrote a novel about her, but changed her name. The novel is not publishable, truly it's not. It is in sections in a box that I keep in my apartment still.
After I moved out of my parents's house, when I went off to college, I didn't feel the need to escape like that anymore. I still write a lot of poetry though.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 3, 2004, at 12:27:00
In reply to What do you think?, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2004, at 16:54:28
Hi I have a daydream world heck I am a housewife with a lot of time on my hands and mine are usually romantic things about people I know and pass in max a hour on a very slow day...but it is not as fancy and detailed as yours.I am still not sure I understand all of yours. I think maybe exploring WHY you wanna go back to it in such depth may be good to talk about with your T. Like WHY do you wanna depart and invest so much energy of mind into a fake world instead of working on your real world. Just an idea.
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