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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by starlight on July 26, 2004, at 13:21:22
I totally agree with you Starlight; there isn't anything you've said in your last post that I can't relate to.
My therapist never seems to discuss anything head-on; I always have to bring stuff up, and then I always get this wishy-washy noncomittal reply; God only *knows* what he's written in his notes. Your strong language in your post was appropriate.
Damiana, kick butt girl! Your therapist was unprofessional.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:43:34
In reply to For Starlight and Damiana, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
I don't want to get into any more trouble here than I have already ...
Ah well. Life.
Posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
In reply to For Starlight and Damiana, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
Hey Susan,
One thing I've thought of is that in order to keep you coming back, they might not address these types of issues, but instead they will 'wait for you to arrive at these conclusions on your own,' which to me seems much more time consuming, and it allows the behavior to continue. Addressing these issues head on seems like it would be much more efficient and be a catalyst for change. You can ask for a copy of your records...
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 17:45:49
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana, posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
Yes, starlight, I agree with you. Certainly that's been one of my impressions all along. Keep 'em coming back. How else to make money? And I know my therapist was certainly charging to the max. I've heard that some therapists keep their rates down in order to make health care accessible to a greater number of people. Not mine! Eight visits and I've chewed up my entire years' insurance worth.
Enough complaining already. As regards the records, it would probably make me very angry to see myself judged, in writing, by another. Even a *professional*. Which reminds me, does anyone besides li'l ol' me think that Damiana might have a case for PTSD *caused* by her therapist?????
Posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 19:02:12
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana, posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
I was reading a book yesterday which talked about this. It adds value only when you reach your conclusion by yourself. A therapist giving the solution does not work. That is not the point of therapy. It is to just ask the right questions, remove the blocks, and let you reach your own conclusions.
> Hey Susan,
> One thing I've thought of is that in order to keep you coming back, they might not address these types of issues, but instead they will 'wait for you to arrive at these conclusions on your own,' which to me seems much more time consuming, and it allows the behavior to continue. Addressing these issues head on seems like it would be much more efficient and be a catalyst for change. You can ask for a copy of your records...
> starlight
Posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 19:11:37
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana ? starlight, posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 19:02:12
I think it's bunk. If my therapist had brought that to my attention, I would have evaluated it for myself and seen where yes, I have the tendency to do that and yes, I didn't have a good relationship with my father, and more importantly, no - I don't want to come across that way because it undermines me. But if someone you respect were to just make the suggestion - say by asking you the question "Have you ever noticed yourself behaving in this fashion"? You'd probably listen and evaluate it for yourself. When I go to a voice lesson, my teacher doesn't let me flop around endlessly trying to find my voice, she points me in the right direction and when I don't fully get it, she corrects me. I'm paying her good money to do just that, and she's not even close to what a doc charges. I think that's one of the main reasons why I've given up on therapy. It's a lot of money to spend to go driving down bad memory lane And to do all the guesswork yourself.
starlight
Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
Hi everyone, I really missed you all. Thank you so much for all of your feedback. I welcome it, whether it is agreeable or not. As ist stands, our affair continues as well as our therapeutic sessions (which, believe it or not has not been affected by our affair). Our affair is seperate issue. When I walk in his office I AM his patient. We put all else aside. I find it even easier to talk to him because we have become so much closer intimately. The level of love, trust, intimacy, openness.... has been inhanced. Your lover should be your best friend, someone who loves you for who you are unconditionally, for the good and bad. They are in essence your best friend. Although I dont necessarily think of him as my lover because of our dual relationship, it does carry all of these qualities. I am two essential people to my T (and myself), the object of affection and a patient....two people, two lives. He is human, being a therapist is his job, it does not exclude him from having feelings. In most cases I would agree that what we are doing is wrong. For many people such actions could be very hurtful and damaging. For me though, I am at a place in my life where I can handle the dual role. Both are theraputic for me. Though I know our affair will one day end, I am ok with that. What I get from him now is more than just sex. It has helped my self esteem (to know that someone could love and want me even though they know all the bad things about me, see my scars.... I believed I was untouchable. He kisses my scars, I dont feel so ashamed because of it now) This relationship has taught me to love, be loved, be vulnerable, to trust, to tolerate and challenge some of my own issues regarding relationships and men... I realize that men are not all bad and going to hurt me. I realize that my needs can get met by other people if I allow them in. I am learning to be more comfortable with my body and myself. I see him as a man in these situations, not my T. If I can learn all this from him then I could also learn to apply it to other relationships in my life. I know it will end, when I dont know, but when it does I believe I will feel good about the experience and I do believe that our relationship is strong and stable enough that we could maintain a gainful theraputic relationship. Much of this is able to be because of where I am in my own recovery. I look at this as a learning experience among other things. I know that he has never done this before. As I mentioned onece, he very much prided himself on his three major rules: no sex, no hurting yourself or others (him) during session. When we had our first night together he was very disappointed in himself for crossing his own lines and commented that he "threw those out the window, that was something I was proud of" he was also very distraught about cheating on his wife for the first time. He openly struggled with this and was not shy in letting me know where he was with it. We were both dealing with our actions. We worked through it by talking it through, and he worked on it, descretely, with his own alalyst. Obviously we both came out alright. I do not believe his marraige is strong, there are alot of problems. I let him deal with this whatever way he does, I do not put my two scents in. I feel guilty about his wife, but my love for him is stronger. He is huamn, he feels, thinks, acts, fantasizes, has beliefs, morals.....whatever, just like the next person. As a social worker I felt strong feelings for some of my clients. It is extremely difficult to ignore them as I did, but to not talk about the transference could damage the relationship....cause many secrets.... I am not saying what we are doing is right, and again I will say to you all not to do what I am doing. But I do believe that everyones threshold is different,and where I am at right now, I can handle this relationship no matter what does or does not happen. It is a learning process. Thank you all for your continued support and/or advice. I thank you for your honesty whether you see things my way or not. I hope you all are doing well. Take care of yourselves and keep writing! Susan47, I would like to talk to you. you had expressed interest in this. feel free to talk about anything or ask me questions. Welcome to the newbies.
Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:01:59
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 13, 2004, at 20:03:20
I read back on my initial letter to you all explaining my situation. Already I see the growth. I am no longer confused or in anguish over this. It has become quite a theraputic and learning situation. It was weird to read that now. Sorry my last response was so long. My heart was full. :)
Posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 20:09:58
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana, posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 19:11:37
> I think it's bunk. If my therapist had brought that to my attention, I would have evaluated it for myself and seen where yes, I have the tendency to do that and yes, I didn't have a good relationship with my father, and more importantly, no - I don't want to come across that way because it undermines me. But if someone you respect were to just make the suggestion - say by asking you the question "Have you ever noticed yourself behaving in this fashion"? You'd probably listen and evaluate it for yourself. When I go to a voice lesson, my teacher doesn't let me flop around endlessly trying to find my voice, she points me in the right direction and when I don't fully get it, she corrects me. I'm paying her good money to do just that, and she's not even close to what a doc charges. I think that's one of the main reasons why I've given up on therapy. It's a lot of money to spend to go driving down bad memory lane And to do all the guesswork yourself.
> starlight
I think a good therapist would definitely ask you those questions. Only that they will let you figure out the answer yourself. And not all of them are in that for money.
Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:11:21
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
Things with my T are defintately not just sexual. Our affair has taken on more of a life of a real relationship now. It was never just about sex though, he always was and still is always checking in with me about where I am at emotionally, if I have concerns, am I uncomfortable with anything, what my wants are, what have I gotten/learned from our relationship that I could apply to future ones, If he's hurting me, he checks in with me while we are intimate to make sure mentally I am alright..... he is very sensitive to my issues in our relationship. Ive never experienced that before. Just wanted to add that. Ive definately grown/changed since my first letter.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:07:19
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
I'm so happy to hear from you, welcome back. I'm still in my first newbie week here, but when I saw your posts, I was mesmerized.
I had these unbelievable feelings of desire for my therapist and always wondered what it would be like to know him intimately. Whew, it was so strong it frightened me. I hadn't felt that way since I was a drooling teenager, in love for the first time. It turned out back then that my fantasy was much better than the reality; David was a wonderful person in my mind but a schmuck in reality.
I hope things continue to be good for you; you sound very positive right now, and it sounds also as though you realize it can't go on forever. When you do have to deal with flak and emotional fall-out please get a big support system behind you. I like to think that we're part of it. I was frightened for you when you disappeared from the board.
Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 21:37:59
In reply to Jadah!, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:07:19
Thank you for being concerned. That was warming to hear. I understand how you are feeling in regards to your desires for your T. I also agree that fantasies are better than the real thing. One thing I struggled with early on was getting to know him on a personal level. I had initially had him on such a high pedistal, perfect in everyway, impervious to any wrong.... as I got to know him outside of his traditional role I saw the more human side of him... the emotional struggles, mood swings, biases, points of view, habits... i was very thrown when we had our first arguement as a "couple", it was so foreign, you dont do that in therapy. It was disappointing to find out that he wasnt perfect, almost "godly" like I thought him to be in my mind. I saw him as human. I didnt like that at first, I wanted him to be consistent, essentially, I wanted him to be a full time T in both worlds....soothing voice, understanding, attentive to my every word... empathetic.... (non human). I can accept this reality now but I have often wondered if I had initially fell in love with the IDEA of him rather than the person. Know that ;your feelings are real, dont be afraid of them. I encourage you to process them with your T to whatever lengtth you are comfortable. Remember that with transference comes countertransference- they have feelings about you too. It does get difficult for them at times to not express these feelings or urges. I think that by talking about it together it is also a relief to the T to express themselves also (in a theraputic way) I do not suggest having an affair with your T (like IM doing) to anyone. I kow myself and where I am at. Right or wrong, it is sustaining me right now at this point in my life and I am emotionally able to handle the situation- especiallly together talking openly about things. I do know it cant go on forever. Maybe at that point I will be devestated, I hope I can handle it with as much pride as I have now. Feel free to ask me or talk about anything. I appreciate your willingness and verve. Talk to you soon.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:43:34
In reply to Re: my first letter, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:01:59
I like your long posts. They tell me things I want to know.
Never apologize for a long post, okay?
I'm glad you're feeling positive about yourself; if you come out of this relationship with your T knowing what you want from a man, that's a good thing, isn't it.
Posted by lucy stone on July 27, 2004, at 21:47:05
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
Dear Jadah, I feel so sad when I read your post. This man is abusing you. He is taking advantage of his positon as your therapist by having a sexual relationship with you. His is betraying his wife by having an affair, he is betraying his profession by not adhering to his professional ethics. Your welfare should be his only consideration and by having sex with you he is not taking proper care of you. You are the victim in this situation and I do not blame or condemn you at all, I put all the blame on him. He is supposed to know better, indeed he does know better or he would not feel guilty about his actions. I hope he is talking about his actions with his own therapist and he or she is helping him see how wrong his actions are. I hope he ends this affair soon and minimizes the harm to you. There are reasons why all the professional organizations covering therapists prohibit sex between therapists and patients, because it is never in the best interests of the patient. My heart goes out to you, truly.
Lucy
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana » starlight, posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 20:09:58
Yes I think a good T would guide you in the direction of good mental health; if he knows you're relying on drugs or alcohol, for example, he might bring that up. If he knows you're extremely anxious at times, to the point of having panic attacks, wouldn't he bring *that* up? These are things I went through while under the *supervision* (what do therapists call it?) of my T and he didn't once (a) bring up any of these issues, or (b) pursue them when *I* brought them up.
He was laid back to the point of, I think, indifference. It hurt. A lot.
He might have been cleaning his nails, too, when I wasn't watching.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:59:26
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, insert, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:11:21
Hi Jadah,
What on earth does this mean (take it with humour, meant that way) "He checks in with me while we are intimate...."
I don't think what you're experiencing with your T is what the average relationship is like at all.
He's your therapist and you're having sex with him; you're getting the best of two worlds at the same time.
Maybe that's my fantasy. What a wonderful fantasy. I want it. No wonder that a client like me will fall for her therapist in a sexual way. What could be better? I'm sure what you're experiencing is very beautiful right now. I bet it's hard on your therapist too. He sounds like a sensitive person. Hmm.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 22:06:54
In reply to Re: Susan47, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 21:37:59
Omigod, I have to tell you that my therapist fired me.
He says my transference is too intense. His face, his voice ...
It's my own fault. I couldn't control my desire to shake him out of being so calm, serene, well-balanced ... and indifferent.
Ask me what I did ...
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 5:44:48
In reply to For Jadah, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 22:06:54
Susan, I am sorry your therapist couldn't work with your transferance. My analyst says that we can deal with whatever feelings come up, even intense erotic transference. He tells me that I can have all my feelings, we just can't physically act on them. As it says in "In Session," the patient should be able to come into the office naked saying "take me" and the T should tell him or her to put their clothes back on and talk about it. Your T let you down by not working it through with you. Since he couldn't do that he did the right thing by terminating you. As much as it hurt it is better for you than acting on his countertransference.
Posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by lucy stone on July 27, 2004, at 21:47:05
Warning: Jadah, don't read this post if you are feeling sensitive. It is a tough love thing.
I agree with Lucy Stone on this one. Sorry Jadah, but I think what he is doing is reprehensible. He is hurting you, his profession and his wife. Just because it feels good to you now doesn't mean that what he is doing is right.
When I come to a male therapist revealing my childhood hurts, in many ways I become a child emotionally, even though I have a woman's body. For the therapist to have sex with that body would be, to me, the same thing as taking advantage of a child. I am not alone in this theory of why it is wrong, it's in all the literature.
I am not saying you did anything wrong. I think that he is the one who is wrong. You came to him with sexual abuse history and I feel that he consciously or subconscioulsy took advantage of that. He may "seem" sensitive, but I don't think someone who cheats on his wife with a vulnerable patient--who is also paying him no less--is a sensitive person. Sorry I just don't.
I thought he was supposed to help the emotional child grow up into an emotional adult so that you could find a loving relationship with an available person. Not keep you emeshed with him.
I hope this post doesn't make you feel worse, but I think this situation is very dangerous and will hurt you in the end. Can you at least get the names of other therapists or support groups, so you have them as backups when this unravels?
P.S. I very much appreciate your honesty in this. I know it has helped me immensely in my own transference issues, to see the dangers of crossing the line.
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:28:04
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:32:28
In reply to Thanks Lcy (nm), posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:28:04
PS, I don't think my therapist was necessarily countertransferring. To be fair, I did ask him to let me go. I wasn't strong enough to do that work on my own; when I feel strongly about someone, and I know it's not good for me, I've always needed that person to end the relationship.
Although I seem to have done just fine ending the relationship with my real father.
My therapist was a great help on many fronts.
I just couldn't work past the intensity of wanting to know him as a real human; and that's not their role. They're not there to be real to us.
Maybe that sounds confused, but I'll work it through.
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 10:47:30
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:32:28
Susan, I understand this perfectly. I, too, want my therapist to be more than a T to me. I beg, I plead, I rage, I manipulatate, but he won't cross his boundries. I don't have erotic feelings for him, I want his as a perfect comfortor. This is something I repeatedly do in my life, in ways that have often not been good for me. We are working it through by examining why I want it, why it enrages me that he can't give it to me, and what it would mean to me if it could. For me this work is makingly my life better. I'm not saying that you should be doing the same thing, just saying what I am doing.
Posted by pretty_paints on July 28, 2004, at 11:49:26
In reply to I'm in love with my therapist, posted by tinydancer on October 10, 2003, at 2:43:19
My main issues are to do with my mum, and the fact that I never got enough love or attention from her. However, looking back, my crushes have ALWAYS been on MEN and my MALE therapist. At school I would have a crush on usually every one of my male teachers, to varying degrees, and only very occasionally a crush on a woman teacher. Although it was mainly a 'I want them to protect me and look after me' thing, it was also sexual too. I wanted them to be sexually attracted to me, but unable to act on their feelings because I was a student. I wanted to act like the innocent young student, but at the same time know exactly what I was doing to make myself attractive to them. Anyone ever been here..?
But how does this figure with my issues with my mum? I had a great relationship with my dad, and was never abused by either of my parents, or anyone else. My mum wasnt cruel either, she was just emotionally distant and not very affectionate.
Also, is there something significant about the fact that I want to be sexually attractive to people who arnt "allowed" to reciprocate? Like, my teachers for example. I even got a crush on my doctor, who is like 60!! and very wrinkly etc! Oh dear me.
I know this isnt exactly following the main subject of these posts. I was gonna start a new thread, but I figured that since its sort of along the same lines, you guys might have some insight! I did have a crush on my last therapist, but I'm seeing a woman now. I dont feel much for her at the moment but I havent been seeing her very long. I had a dream about her the other night though and am TERRIFIED of developing feelings for her. Just because Iv been through that with teachers, and just reading your posts reminds me of how horrendously painful it can be. And I do not want to go there again!
Any help would be really appreciated!!
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
I don't think that everyone is or turns into a a 'child' in the therapists office. Every experience is a learning experience and this is Jadah's journey at the moment and the psychiatrist's. Yes his behavior is wrong, but once again, he's just human. And like I mentioned before, he has his own problems with his marriage and is likely acting out rather than facing his problems, which is very, very common behavior that most of us exhibit at times.
I do think it's a mistake to assume that he's never done this before, just because he says it - that may or may not be true.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:04:35
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 10:47:30
How does it make your life better that he's unwilling to be comforting to you?
And Susan, what are you going to do about your therapy situation? I think I mentioned to you that you might try a woman? Any thoughts on that? I switched from a man, who actually was a lot like my father and brought up a lot of anger, to a woman, who I'm able to deal with issues with without stirring up that emotion. And of course, the man violated my confidentiality, which basically, fulfilled my belief that men who appear similar to my father most likely are. I trust the woman so much more and feel safer with her. Just a thought.
starlight
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