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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
Dr. Bob once wisely advised me to stay away from the board when storms brew or things felt unsafe. Unfortunately, that always seems to coincide with needing support:(
So, I preface all of this by saying I'm sorry I haven't been supporting all of you though I've felt like I had a lot to say. For a couple of days, I thought it best to not even read the board. Man, am I easily triggered.
Even after a year of therapy, trying to establish some sort of bond or connection with my therapist, I haven't even begun to divulge the details of my parental abuse and neglect and csa by other trusted authority figures. I've spent a lot of time just talking about my feelings, ways to soothe, etc.
Looming before me now is my T's encouragement to begin the tales. I'm so overwhelmed. Where to start? I feel like it could take years to recount it all; there is just so much. Is there really any point? From the literature, it seems there isn't a great amount of hope for people with my degree of trauma. What is the best I can hope for? One thing I know is that I will struggle with this for the rest of my life. It's kind of like someone managing a disease that will never be fully cured.
To really process every traumatic event seems endless and hopeless.
I feel like I am stuck in the space where I need to run back to my old ways of coping that have gotten me this far or plunge forward into the unknown waters. Either choice seems permanent, like there would be no changing my mind. So I just sit here on the fence unable to sleep, think clearly, or live fully. I need someone to come along and push me one way or the other.
Posted by Dinah on October 30, 2004, at 14:00:25
In reply to Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
No need to feel selfish. We all give when we can. And we can't always. I've been living mainly in work-world lately and will be for a while longer.
Have you talked to your therapist about your concerns of opening something and having it only bring more pain, and no resolution? I don't believe anyone is beyond hope. It probably needs to be determined on a case to case basis rather opening the wounds is a good idea and only you and your therapist can decide that. But I don't think you can't be helped.
I don't have a history of abuse, but I have concluded that I have several conditions that will be with me for life, and that I have to live with. I get migraines, and I have some medication for that. I have diabetes, and I have medication for that. And I have problems with emotional integrity under stress, shall we say. I have medication and therapy for that.
It's enormously frustrating sometimes to have to structure my life around those things. But most of the time I manage ok. Is it really so bad to think of yourself as having a chronic condition, if it turns out that that's true? (I'm not saying it is, but looking at worst case scenario.)
What would you consider it would be like to be cured? And what would you consider it to be like to have a chronic condition that you can learn to manage as best you can?
Posted by daisym on October 30, 2004, at 15:56:56
In reply to Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
(((Aphrodite)))
You are asking really good questions and there are no right or wrong answers. My therapist and I talked about this a lot as I started to open up about stuff, whether it would be more stressful and retraumatizing to tell the stories. Our litmus test was whether they were disruptive without talking about them. Since the memories were invading my dreams and the depression seemed to be getting worse, we elected to "stick our toe in the water", as he put it. I had so many writing assignments around the first round of telling...if you search you will see some of them. I found that it was retraumatizing but such a relief to put the pieces together and have someone listen to what happened. To be able to agonize over whether it was my fault or not, and not have the immediate "of course not" response. He let me look at why I felt this way and acknowledged why I would. One thing in particular got reframed for me and if I get nothing out of all this work, I'll be eternally grateful for that one thing. It was huge. Huge!
I guess my advise is to first try to look at what you think you might get out of telling the tales. Knowing that they can't be undone, your therapist can't save you nor can he make it not hurt. My therapist agrees that it will be a lifelong hurt, we won't probably ever get to a place where I can say, "no big deal." But it isn't appropriate, really, to think of these things as "no big deal." I think I am working towards a place where the memories aren't loaded with anxiety and life-stopping pain...they are just sad and ugly and a part of my painful past. I want to be able to choose to think about them or not. When I am reminded of them, I'll feel the sadness, and maybe even anger, but it will be titrated in a way that it doesn't take me down. Or at least, not for very long. I'm not there yet.
My therapist talks to me a lot about grieving. That deep grief for what happened, and for what didn't happy (an ideal childhood) is enormously powerful and brings on these suicidal feelings and tidal waves of hopelessness. But releasing the feelings, working through the grief, is the only way up and out. Grieving entails telling the story over and over and over again, each time finding a new angle and a new feeling. Like a child learning a new skill, or anyone you've ever met who recently had a baby and wants to tell their birth story. Powerful events need telling.
If you choose to not tell the tales, you can work on moving forward, learning new coping skills and marking past events as past. This is an OK choice, it isn't a cop-out, or weak, etc.
However, it would be my observation, given how much like me you are, that even if you want and need to talk about the specifics, you think you don't have a right to grieve these events, to take up someone's time with your heart ache and pain, because some of this was "self-chosen." And besides, "it happened a long time ago, I'm smart enough to not let it affect me now and I have all these current things to deal with." I've said all of that a million times.
Where to start? Another good question. My therapist likes to say, "pull a thread, and let's see where it takes us." We started in the middle, really and then went back to the beginning. The assignment of walking through the houses I've lived in was helpful as a conversation starter. Think about how you might want to do this. Do you want to tell the story without interruption? If so, say so. I wrote down one of the most traumatic things and said to him, "I want to read this. I need to conquer the words but I might skip parts that are too hard to say out loud right now." I gave him a copy and forced myself to get through it. He was patient and didn't derail me with questions. And at the end, he asked how it felt to tell him, not anything specific about what I had just read. After we managed those feelings, I could go back to the feelings that went with the event.
I'm guessing everyone does it differently. I hope those that are sharing their stories will jump in here and add how and what works. I would have been one of those people who would have encouraged you not to wallow in it a few years ago. I had no idea how much I needed to talk about the dark corners and the lurking fears. It isn't easy, but I think it sounds like you are ready.
Put your toe in the water. You aren't alone. I've got a towel, warm from the dryer, ready to wrap around you the minute you need it.
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on October 30, 2004, at 20:46:09
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish (long) » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on October 30, 2004, at 15:56:56
You have a really good handle on this issue. I'm impressed (but not of course surprised).
My reasons for going to therapy are more related to what would be called in the good old days "a delicate constitution", so my grasp on bringing up old issues is not all that good. But I learned a lot from reading your post.
Thank you for sharing.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 9:27:36
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on October 30, 2004, at 14:00:25
Wise thoughts as always, Dinah. I guess I've come to terms with not being "cured," but as far as chronic conditions go, my chief complaint is living with something I have to keep secret. When my coworkers and family struggle with chronic illnesses, everyone chips in and makes the burden lighter. But I just have to grin and bear it and be the rock for everyone else.
I think I will ask my T about some case histories, a little comparison of the best I can hope for considering my history. I think I will also ask him for the theory or the science that suggests trudging through all of this is a good idea. Of course he'll say, "Everyone is different . . ."
Thanks for the food for thought.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 9:41:57
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish (long) » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on October 30, 2004, at 15:56:56
Sometimes my T doesn't want me to talk about the past events because he says I'm "unstable" and I don't have a good support system. But I've argued that those problems exist because of the difficult past I keep buried. So, our current compromise is to go slow, piece by piece, and see how I fare. Of course, slow is not one of my "speeds," and I am always in a hurry to be done with things, be better, etc. Plus, it makes being in therapy seem like a lifelong proposition. (Of course, I thought I was going in for about 6 months of CBT. Ha, ha.)
I think not telling him and only describing its after effects and how I feel now only causes me to leave and swim in the memories left unsaid. In the few times I have opened up, I've been a mess but still somewhat relieved that I had broken the isolation. I think telling someone takes away the power of the terrifying events. Someone else is now in on it.
I appreciate all that you have shared. From it, I know that it will be a roller-coaster ride, and there will be times I will feel relieved, and times I will want to run, and times I will be awash in unbearable grief.
And I will still have to run my home and office and be together for the people who depend on me.
I have my ticket to get on the roller-coaster tomorrow. I loved your offer of the towel from the dryer! When my child was an infant, I used to throw his receiving blanket in the dryer and wrap him up in it when he was crying, and he instantly fell asleep! I may need that beautiful offer of a warm towel from you to dry the tears (or clean up the barf from the roller-coaster ride:) I get a little motion sick!
Thank you again for your support and insight.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 14:22:20
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish (long) » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on October 30, 2004, at 15:56:56
Daisy,
What a wonderful post. I learned a lot from reading it. Truly. Thank you for sharing your insight and experience with us.(((((Daisy)))))
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 14:24:28
In reply to Re: chicken or the egg » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 9:41:57
Aphrodite,
It's good to hear from you. I completely understand about needing to stay away at times. We are here for you either way.I wish you courage and hope in whatever you decide about how to proceed in therapy. I have faith that you and your T will make the best decision for you right now.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by daisym on October 31, 2004, at 16:12:01
In reply to Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
I just reread your first post and then your next post to me. I'd say you already know that the best thing for you would be to tell the tales, to get off the fence and move foreward into this next step. I think you are holding yourelf back, not because of work, home and the like, but because you feel self-centered about doing it. After all, it's over and done with, isn't it? Your grown up self wants to "get over it." I'll say it again, it isn't wallowing and it isn't weakness. It takes a lot of courage to open yourself up to someone like this, and allow them to see what I call "the bad parts" for lack of a better term. I've come to think of it as a really horrible wound, one that most people can't look at because it is just too gross, bleeding too badly. So we keep it covered with those psychic band-aids. Ripping away the covering and the scab and cleaning out the wound is painful, brutally painful, but it won't really heal until this is done. Would you leave a splinter in your son's foot?
I also think you might be scared about who's gonna talk...frightens the hell out of me at times...and how to shut her up again. All I can tell you is that it is her story so if given room, she will probably tell it. And feel better for telling it. The adult you might feel bad for awhile, but you have the coping skills now to get through this. Borrow your therapist's strength, acknowledge that you might be unstable for awhile, reread the chapter in "Courage to Heal" about the crisis phase, and the page that says, "don't kill yourself over old memories." Post often, go to babble open if you need to, email me, increase your sessions and take some time off. A glass of wine help too.
I know you talked about starting medications. I don't know if you ever did it. If you just started, you might need to monitor closely your feelings as you unleash these memories. Meds are supposed to help, but sometimes they can intensify your reaction to stressors.
I feel sort of bossy and harsh in this post. I don't mean to be. I guess I'm just trying to point out that you are already off the fence, you just haven't noticed yet. I'm offering full support. Heaven knows I've had my share from Babble folks.
And, I found the extra big towel today -- so I'm ready!!
hugs
Daisy
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 16:43:07
In reply to Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
I got that workbook from Amazon...just starting it, but it looks great! Thanks again for the suggestion.
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:11:22
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on October 31, 2004, at 16:12:01
I'm just so nervous. I'm afraid of being rejected. They are very old fears. And the rational side of me is just so cynical and berates the younger parts for not getting over the past. The more I dwell in it, the harsher that inner critic becomes. If there is anything my rational part hates in myself and others is weakness, and young Aphrodite is very weak (and mute) indeed.
I think I'll have that glass of wine.
I know what I have to do. It's getting "all of Aphrodite" on board for the process that is hard to do. Like I've said before, it's the young parts that need therapy but the grown up me gets tired of hauling me there and sitting through it when there are SO many things to do in my current life. And my T really gets annoyed by that adult.
Oh, you guys will be hearing so much more from me. Hope the board stays in supportive mode. Fingers crossed.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:12:59
In reply to Re: You're right, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:11:22
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:14:16
In reply to FYI, Aphrodite, posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 16:43:07
I bawled my little ol' eyes out doing that book, but it was very insightful. Tell me what you think when you do it. I'll be interested if you use it with your patients.
Posted by Daisym on October 31, 2004, at 19:27:52
In reply to Re: FYI, Aphrodite » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:14:16
I missed something...what book are we talking about? (I hate to be left out, you guys know that!)
Is that the inner child book?
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 19:30:26
In reply to Re: FYI, Aphrodite » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 19:14:16
I'll let you know. I doubt I will use it with any patients this year, though. I'm (trying to be) working within a medical model with a problem-solving focus. Sigh, it's so darned hard for me to focus in that much. So I don't think that this kind of work will be conducive to the framework I am stuck within. Oops, I mean learning. Trying to be positive, trying to be positive....
But someday when I have some autonomy, I think I would like to have more long-term clients, and perhaps the workbook or the technique will fit in more.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 19:35:45
In reply to Re: FYI, Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2004, at 19:27:52
Yes, sorry.
"Recovery of Your Inner Child"
by Lucia Capacchione, PhD
Posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:09:00
In reply to Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by Aphrodite on October 30, 2004, at 12:58:07
I've got so much I want to write to you, I'll probably forget half of it, but here goes.
Firstly, please remember that even if someone doesn't post a supportive response for months and months and months, there are always their past responses sitting in the archives, just waiting for people to stumble upon them and rediscover the support and kindness and helpfulness contained within. It's like a great big bank of support. And you've got a pretty big balance just sitting in there waiting for a rainy day.
Secondly, I was so moved by your post. I am in exactly the same position. Your post could have been written by me, except mine wouldn't say "I've spent a lot of time just talking about..." because I still don't talk in therapy. I just write. And even that contains a lot of coded stuff that my T hasn't figured out how to decipher yet. Boy, is he gonna get a shock when he finally cracks THAT code ;)
Anyway, I find it helpful to write out for my T a list of things to talk about at-some-undefined-point-in-time. It will just be a list of one word prompts, so I don't have to delve into or think about any of them. And if you do it pretty fast, there's not enough time for any of them to be triggering. Plus, being just one word, I don't feel like I'm giving up my secrets, so it's a bit easier to hand that big bombshell list over to my T. Then during a session, he may ask about one of them and I'll tell him a couple of sentences. Then 3 sessions down the track I might mention it in passing and he'll get a few more sentences out of me. Sometimes I think I'm doing turtle therapy.
Re where to start, I find the best things to concentrate on are either items jumping up in my face saying "me, me, me" or items desparately trying to run and hide. I know that with abuse, most of the items will be run away and hide ones, but if you are honest with yourself, you will *know* which ones you desparately DON'T want to deal with. THEY are the ones you *need* to deal with. But that doesn't mean you can't use some easier ones as warm ups ;)
I'm currently reading a book called "Adult Children of Abusive Parents: A Healing Program for Those Who Have Been Physically, Sexually, or Emotionally Abused" by Steven Farmer. I find it very difficult to read (can only get through a page or so at a time - it upsets me a lot) and the dialogue in the examples is pretty corny, but it is a wonderful book (trust me - I've certainly read way more than my fair share of psych books). You may care to check it out.
Posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:16:29
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish » Aphrodite, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:09:00
> I'm currently reading a book called "Adult Children of Abusive Parents: A Healing Program for Those Who Have Been Physically, Sexually, or Emotionally Abused" by Steven Farmer.
Sorry, I meant "Adult Children of Abusive Parents: A Healing Program for Those Who Have Been Physically, Sexually, or Emotionally Abused".
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2004, at 23:36:18
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:16:29
Posted by littleone on November 1, 2004, at 15:37:17
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish (long) » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on October 30, 2004, at 15:56:56
> Grieving entails telling the story over and over and over again, each time finding a new angle and a new feeling. Like a child learning a new skill, or anyone you've ever met who recently had a baby and wants to tell their birth story. Powerful events need telling.
Daisy, your post included so much helpful information. I'm still trying to take it all in. However, I did have some immediate comments about the above.
Earlier in the piece, a lot of my therapy was focused on dealing with the accident I witnessed and dealing with the fact that I believe that people don't like me and I have no friends.
My T said that to get past the accident, I had to describe it over and over and over. I had assumed this was so I would kind of become desensitised to it. He never mentioned anything about seeing it from fresh angles or finding new feelings. I kind of suspect that telling the story over and over would not be all that helpful unless new thoughts and feelings are discovered and explored. Inside, I kind of think that becoming desensitised to it may be the best approach for some people, but for me it is just reinforcing my avoidant tendencies. Smother, forget, deny. But, of course, my avoidant side is yelling out "yes, that's right, just desensistise yourself!!" :)
Also, this really confused me when I talked to my T. If retelling a story heals you, how does this work if you are no longer seeing a T? I'm sure that if you have just 1 friend, they aren't going to want to listen to it 20 times, but likewise, who has time to nurture 20 close friendships? I just don't understand how it is all supposed to work in real life.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 2, 2004, at 8:29:03
In reply to Re: Discouraged, feeling selfish » Aphrodite, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:09:00
I really liked the image of your T figuring out your hidden messages. I hope as you build more trust and feel more comfortable, you can be direct. It's a long road, I know.
Thank you for the book suggestion and for your support. I think I'll just close my eyes and plunge and see what comes up first.
Posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 19:28:34
In reply to Retelling your stories » daisym, posted by littleone on November 1, 2004, at 15:37:17
You ask good questions with no simply answers. Most people have big, important events to talk about (births, weddings, car accidents) but they aren't necessarily traumatic or "private." They tell their family and friends about stuff, over and over, even if everyone around them has heard it before. They simply can't help it. I've had people tell me stuff in line at the grocery store.
But the traumas...the private pain that we bring into therapy...I don't think we process these with the outside world the same way. So if you have a story to tell like that, you find yourself a therapist, or a surrogate-therapist, usually someone who has "been there, done that" and is willing to listen. I know therapy is supposed to be a microcosm of your world in many ways. But some things ARE private, between you and your therapist. When I talk about getting support, perhaps joining a group, my therapist will remind me that many of the things we are talking about are not appropriate to share with my friends or family. I guess not everything translates into a skill you can use in the real world. But healing doesn't need to take place around everything.
As far as telling the story over and over again in therapy, perhaps desensitizing is a goal. More likely, releasing the feelings that go with the story is the goal. These feelings include horror, embarrassment, shame and many others. I think shame and embarrassment are the first ones to go when you've told a story more than once.
This is the end of the thread.
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