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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 11:26:24
I thought it was rather dull and empty, because it frankly did not leave me satisfied. Or angry. Or anything else.
My therapist thought it was important work, and that I didn't feel satisfied because he challenged me.
Because I love my therapist and want to please him, I wish to remember this session. So that if we did what he thought was important work, we can build on it rather than starting from scratch.
But I'm having a hard time hanging on to what even he might have thought was important.
We started with why I disliked my job. He focussed on my intense dislike of responsibility. He thought I didn't like taking any sort of risks. I brought up Rod's wonderful descriptor "seemingly fearless vulnerability" and argued that I take immense risks on my own behalf, but fear taking risks that can harm anyone else.
Which led into my increasing reclusiveness, and increasing level of being sort of house - if not bound then at least tethered in some way. Which I argue is my being considerate. I don't go to church anymore because I was scaring those of simple faith in my old Sunday School class once my old Sunday School teacher (who translated for me) was gone, and that the really only option for a Sunday School class for me was my husband's. And while he urges me to go, I know I'd embarass him. And I don't want to do that. He goes to great pains not to introduce me to anyone from work, so...
And I don't do anything school related or related to my son's friends because I don't want to embarass him by my oddness. Or more to the point, because I don't embarass him yet, I don't want him to be judged by me. I don't want my strangeness to interfere with his social chances. So my husband does birthdays and school volunteer work. And I help by laying low.
Which led my therapist to say that his take on me after knowing me all these years was that I hate responsibility but I insist on claiming it for myself when it doesn't belong to me.
That the women of simple faith in Sunday School are responsible for their own feelings of fear, and that maybe God would want me to challenge them. That I might be hurting my son more by avoiding his school than I would hurt him by my oddness. (He pretty much admitted that I was noticeably odd.) That if my husband didn't introduce me to his friends, I should introduce myself.
I accused him of never having taken logic or algebra in school. He accused me of something else that I don't now recall.
I complained that we had gotten off track from talking about work, and he maintained that we were just meandering along the same subject. That we weren't off course.
He got mad and denied it. He later mentioned that he wasn't mad, and I said no he wasn't now, but was before, and he got mad all over again. Said that was life and I was too sensitive to life, and that that was good in some ways and bad in others. It wasn't a bad mad. Just a mad.
Oh, the only part of the session that was satisfying for me was that I spoke my language of movement and gestures rather than words a couple of times and we worked together to translate to words. Because usually I've thought about what we were going to talk about in advance so I have the words ready. But this time I hadn't, and the words weren't available at all. Just the gut level images and colors.
Overall I feel sort of empty about the session, but he thinks it's important so I'm writing it down in hopes that by doing so, or by reading what other poeple have to say, that I will come to realize why it was important. And I will see the good hard work he thanked me for and not the emptiness I see right now.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 11:32:43
In reply to Weird session - long, sorry, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 11:26:24
When I told him that he wasn't angry now, but was before when he denied he was mad.
Although I suppose he would say that I wasn't the one who brought him to blasphemy, but rather himself. And I was just in the room or something.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 12:01:41
In reply to Weird session - long, sorry, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 11:26:24
From the Merriam Webster link:
Main Entry: tru·cu·lent
Pronunciation: -l&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin truculentus, from truc-, trux savage; perhaps akin to Middle Irish trú doomed person
1 : feeling or displaying ferocity : CRUEL, SAVAGE
2 : DEADLY, DESTRUCTIVE
3 : scathingly harsh : VITRIOLIC
4 : aggressively self-assertive : BELLIGERENT
- tru·cu·lent·ly adverbThat isn't what I think of, exactly when I think of that word.
Isn't it a word used a lot for teenagers?
Posted by Daisym on February 4, 2005, at 12:44:56
In reply to Truculent, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 12:01:41
Dinah,
Who went to therapy today? Sounds like an important discussion that perhaps you weren't ready to take in. I think he was trying to get you to see that your assumptions about how people react to you are a little bit like fortune telling -- (someone used this with me yesterday and I think it fits here) -- you base it on something concrete, like past experience, but you have no way of knowing if you can generalize your experience in this way. Like your son's school. It might be possible that avoidance will be misread as not caring, instead of him appreciating where you are coming from. I think sometimes we do "favors" for people that they don't need nor appreciate.
As far as your therapist getting mad, sounds more like frustration. I think he wishes you could appreciate yourself. When I think back over sessions that feel unsatisfying, often I find that I've walled off the area we are trying to talk about. So his words bounce off, they don't resonate. I'm not actively defensive, just in my head about it, and sure I'm right. And I miss the warm and fuzzy support sometimes.
I'm glad you wrote it all out. Maybe rereading it will help before next week.
As far as truculent -- I think it goes with the need to be obstinate that seems built in with teens. I'm curious why you posted it with your session description?
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 13:32:09
In reply to Re: Truculent, posted by Daisym on February 4, 2005, at 12:44:56
I was very much in emotional mode when I saw him, and in trying to come up with words to describe what I was trying to say at one point "truculent" popped into my head, as did "glowering". But in looking up the definition, it didn't seem right. My understanding from the context it's usually used is slightly different from the textbook definition. This is why I like to have the words in advance. I am very very particular about what words I use.
Nothing he said did resonate, despite the fact that I was working from a nearly nonverbal level. In fact, perhaps the fact that I was working from a nearly nonverbal level guaranteed that his words wouldn't resonate. Maybe if he were really going to connect, he'd have had to use voice tone and posture. However, since I wrote the words down, maybe I can think about them till Monday and see if I can connect to them.
Hmmm....
Maybe I'm caught between wanting to have the words mean something, since they meant something to him, and being annoyed with him for so eagerly leaping on the topic of work when I had other topics planned for the session. Oh well, that's one good thing about long term therapy. I shouldn't worry overmuch if occasionally his agenda is different than mine. Or at least different from what I find important on this day.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 16:38:23
In reply to Re: Truculent » Daisym, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 13:32:09
Have I been odd again? I've been trying very hard not to be. I hadn't thought I had been.
But if this post is, indeed, outside the ordinary, please disregard.
I'm trying hard to phrase things in a non-odd manner. But I sometimes fail. It's just the phrasing though, you know. I don't think the issues are all that odd. I just phrase them oddly.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 16:45:43
In reply to Hmmm...., posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 16:38:23
Now that last post was needy and odd. Ok, disregard that. Must be a leftover from therapy.
Not what he intended, I suspect.
(But how could he at least not put up a token "You're not odd." Oh drat, that's right, he knows I know when he's lying and he tries to tell the truth.)
Posted by Speaker on February 4, 2005, at 17:34:25
In reply to Whoops., posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 16:45:43
Dinah,
Odd...that is always my goal! Who wants to be like everyone else. I am drawn to odd people as I think they are much more interesting and have a greater self-esteem...or we would conform. I'm sorry Dinah but I'm glad you know you consider youself as odd and malybe thats why I'm drawn to you. (((((Dinah)))))
Marie
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 17:59:52
In reply to Odd :), posted by Speaker on February 4, 2005, at 17:34:25
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 19:15:10
In reply to Whoops., posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 16:45:43
I find that you often refer to something you have said or done as "odd" when I don't think it is odd at all.
I wonder if the world isn't more tolerant of your "oddity" than you think. I honestly don't think you are strange. Sometimes I think you are overly invested in maintaining the status quo, not willing to be open to new ideas, but I don't find that odd. What would your world be like if you were exactly who you are, but the people around you accepted you and didn't think you odd at all? I guess I mean can you consider the possibility that you might not be odd? I wonder if that would be difficult for you - that you *need* to be odd in some way?
Don't lose too much sleep trying to figure out the session... If there were important points they will come up again. Maybe it was a day when things fell into place for your therapist - maybe these things have already fallen in place for you, or maybe they will in the future. Nothing says that things have to fall into place for both of you at the same time.
The sessions when I leave and say "Huh?" are a bit strange... They happen to all of us.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 19:20:20
In reply to Re: Whoops. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 19:15:10
I think that it's just pretty rare that I get the feeling that my therapist is really happy with a session. I sensed that he thought we had done important work, and he verified that. I like him to feel happy with what he's done. I'd like him to feel that way again.
I think it may be that he likes to feel useful. If I can help him feel that way again, by trying to see what he saw in the session, is that so bad?
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 19:22:38
In reply to Re: Whoops. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 19:15:10
And my husband and therapist, the two people who know me best, both think I'm odd and say so.
I think it would be poor reality testing if I didn't believe them.
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 20:14:05
In reply to Re: Whoops. » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 19:20:20
No, it isn't so bad, except it is not your job to make him feel good.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 20:15:21
In reply to Re: Whoops. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 20:14:05
For when I have nothing better to do?
:-)
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2005, at 12:06:10
In reply to Re: Whoops. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 19:15:10
It was most likely a meaningless session, given meaning only by his pleasure. No matter how hard I try, I can't see anything else in it.
Oh well, I'll consider it a gift to him.
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 14:50:42
In reply to Re: Whoops. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2005, at 19:15:10
Among other things, I asked him outright rather I was holding on to the idea that I was odd or if I was doing proper reality testing.
His take on it is, slightly paraphrased, but only slightly: Some of my behaviors are odd, sometimes my appearance is odd, but in some ways I'm quite normal. So sometimes I'm odd and sometimes I'm not. Sunday School in particular came up. He says that in Sunday School, I'm probably disruptive because I think about things a lot and care about them a lot, but that wasn't a bad thing necessarily. And when I suggested that if I cared enough that I was odd I would change, he responded that that wasn't necessarily true. That I was who I was. But I think his overall sense is that I should let other people deal with their own unease around my oddness, and not let it isolate me.
Then he proceeded to tell me I would have to deal with the consequences of having everyone think I was odd if I went ahead with my latest notion. Hmmmph. Shouldn't he be just dealing with it, or thinking other people should deal with it? If he is to be internally consistent, that is.
Posted by mair on February 7, 2005, at 15:43:00
In reply to My therapist's take on odd, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 14:50:42
I'm with fallsfall; you use odd sometimes like it's a perjorative, or at least like you think your husband and T think it's a bad thing. I'm not quite sure what odd means, but I'm pretty sure it should never mean that you don't take part in activities because you think people will find you off-putting. The people I know who might be considered odd (whatever that means), are generally thought to be "delightfully odd," or at least significantly more interesting than everyone else. God knows there's no shortage of conformity.
My biggest concern is that you think you're somehow doing your son a favor by not participating in school activities. He doesn't think you're odd, and to be perfectly frank, none of his friends will either, at their present age. Far better they get to know you now when they can really appreciate you for the person you are, than that they meet you for the first time when they're teens, and all adults seem odd. As Daisy said, you don't want to give the impression that you're uncaring, and you don't want to convey any message to your son that he should be ashamed of you because you might be different from some indeterminate norm.
As to the parents of your son's friends - here's what I've discovered about myself. In many instances I judge parents by their kids, and not the other way around. If I like your kid, I'm going to find every way possible to like you. You have a great kid. End of story.
Mair
Posted by mair on February 7, 2005, at 17:44:45
In reply to My therapist's take on odd, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 14:50:42
I feel that I need to clarify my statement about judging parents by there kids. I frequently find myself responding to someone else's criticism of an adult with a response like "yeah but they have great kids." Fortunately I rarely find myself disinclined to like someone because I don't like their kids - the one possible exception being my neighbor's incredibly overindulged worshipped and extremely obnoxious 10 year old.
I also would point out that one of the most liberating things about adulthood is that you don't have to worry about who's cool and who is not, or more significantly, spend even a second thinking about whether someone was cool before they became an adult. It's so much nicer being able to accept people as they are.
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 19:44:41
In reply to Re: My therapist's take on odd, posted by mair on February 7, 2005, at 15:43:00
Well, I've never seen it as an enormously negative thing. I've just noted its effect, and adjusted my actions accordingly. If I'm alone, I don't think of it at all. :)
I always figured that if I cared enough, I could change enough to conform. I was a teensy bit taken aback today when my therapist didn't seem to think that that was true. I guess it's one of those old childhood fantasies. THIS year I'll dress well, and my hair will be stylish, and I'll know all the right things to say, and people will like me, and all those kids who were mean to me last year will be sorry. :)
My therapist doesn't actually disagree about the school thing. He just thinks I should go to school anyway. Hold my head high and all that. My son's school is sort of a hotbed of conformity among the parents for all its emphasis on individuality among the students, and my therapist is savvy enough to be aware of that.
It's not that I never go to school events. If it's an event large enough to lose myself in, I go happily.
I suppose I have some degree of social phobia that I don't really concentrate on enough, because my life is structured so that it doesn't often come up. It doesn't really show itself at work because I've known everyone forever and I'm aware they value me for the things I bring to the job. I wonder if it's possible to have partial social phobia.
Except that social phobia doesn't seem to be quite right either. A social phobic wouldn't get in as much trouble as I do with my big mouth.
I dunno. I suspect my therapist thinks I'm even odder than I think I am, and in a not very good way. But he's such a conservative, conforming guy, you know? For all his talk of acceptance. There are things he thinks are important that I don't think are important, and he probably judges me more harshly than someone who also didn't think they were important.
But maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel good with that idea. He is after all the person who gave the pdoc from hades the ammo to label me as schizotypal. If you go down that DSM IV checklist, he checks off a number of those items for me.
Posted by mair on February 8, 2005, at 12:24:08
In reply to Re: My therapist's take on odd » mair, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 19:44:41
I always chocked up my social discomfort to shyness. I can't be around alot of people who don't know me; I can't self-assuredly walk up and introduce myself to people. I have on a couple of occasions but I think they were where I knew alot about the person and wanted to pay them a compliment. If I am in a situation where I have no one to talk to because I don't know many people, I always imagine that everyone else is very aware of my discomfort.
I'm much more comfortable schmoozing with people I'm not supposed to know. My social discomfort doesn't extend to public places where I can certainly strike up good conversations with total strangers. So it's not that I'm afraid of people or don't like them.
Maybe you're just shy.
Mair
Posted by littleone on February 8, 2005, at 21:07:53
In reply to Re: My therapist's take on odd » mair, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2005, at 19:44:41
> I always figured that if I cared enough, I could change enough to conform. I was a teensy bit taken aback today when my therapist didn't seem to think that that was true.
I know you've struggled in the past about being your genuine self and being what others want you to be. Someone (Larry maybe??) talked about something like authenticity units and how the bigger the difference is between your genuine self and the self you put forward to others, the more taxing it is to you to keep up that front. Although I'm sure the other poster said this much better than I did :)
Anyway, I can't recall your reaction to this, but I guess you're saying the same sort of things again. Either conform to what others want, or avoid them altogether.
I know you think you look odd, but I still don't really understand how you act odd or come across as odd. It's very obvious to me that you're a really sweet person under any oddness that may possibly be on the surface. Sometimes I think that it's up to the other people to find the niceness in you. That if they don't take the time to look, it's their loss.
I really liked mair's post about being delightfully odd. And about how it is more important to be involved in your son's activities than to spare him the embarrasement of your oddness. Listen to mair.
This is the end of the thread.
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