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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
I'm completely wiped out.
I'm not in the hospital.
I think T is trying to make me heal myself.
He doesn't want me to become dependent on him.
I asked him point-blank who I should call in a crisis. He basically told me that if I call his clinic the only thing they will do is interview me to see if I need to be hospitalized. He said I don't want to be hospitalized. That I won't get better in there, that it will only make me worse. He told me I should call a loved one or a friend. He NEVER ONCE suggested that I call him. I'm kind of hurt, but I know why. It was a good session. I got a lot of stuff out. And now I'm so completely exhausted that I almost collapsed walking out of his office. Too intense. He didn't even bring up my e-mails. He waited for me to, and then he didn't even want to talk about them. This guy confuses me. This interactin confuses me. It's so one-sided. Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm a marionette. He's already planned out exactly what he has to say to me, and he already knows what I'm going to say back. Too clever. He was pretty serious and intense today. I didn't feel any comradery. He said it was basically me vs. my depression. And it was my choice, and it was my battle. And he made it pretty clear to me that he was going to sit on the sidelines, and be the referree, but he wasn't going to force the game to go one way or another. This is tough. No allusion to the hunger strike. I think I need to sleep on this. too much to process right now. but I'm free (from the hospital) but I'm not really free, if you know what I mean.
-llrrrpp
Posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 18:36:28
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
That does not sound like a good therapeutic relationship, if you don't mind me saying that. I've NEVER had a T tell me that I couldn't call her in a crisis -- even the very worst of them told me I could call and she would call me back.
And llrrrpp? The worst of them was very, very bad.
I'm afraid that I don't quite recall your situation vis a vis therapists, but no matter what it is, I highly recommend you look for a new one. Truly, you deserve better than that. You deserve far better than that.
Also, I get the feeling you are similar to me in some reactions, and I very much doubt that you're so prone to being dependent that you can't be trusted not to abuse the right to call your T. Hell, my T told me her HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER, in case it was a real emergency! I haven't had to use it, but it sure makes a difference knowing I could. You deserve to feel that sort of connection, and that sort of support from a T.
I'm not going to say more, because this is bringing up a traumatic experience of my own, one that involved the very worst therapist, which is already a big topic of distress today, so I'll let this go with reiterating: find another T. Interview them until you find one with good chemistry -- who has also gotten over that damned "Blank Slate" theory.
Posted by madeline on May 24, 2006, at 18:44:39
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
are you in one of those clinics that is associated with student health at your school?
What exactly is your therapy situation right now?
maddie
Posted by canadagirl on May 24, 2006, at 18:47:57
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
Glad to hear you had your appointment but sorry to hear about the reaction of your therapist. (I had one of those types, a counsellor with that same type of orientation. I.e., it is up to me, my choice, I am self-sabotaging, etc. It was hard, so hard.) I think sometimes we do need to just be "taken care of" in a crisis, not just sort it out ourselves. You sound pretty bright; could that be what your T sees....an inner strength in you that you might not see right now? Of course I could be wrong about all of this, I am just offering this up as a suggestion.
Posted by pegasus on May 24, 2006, at 20:04:14
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
This does seem rather harsh and/or cold . . . at least the way I read it. I mean, does he have to be the *referee* between you and depression? Can't he at least be your coach? Doesn't he at least root for you to win from the sidelines? If truly not, then I wonder what his theory is about how that therapeutic stance can be helpful to you. I mean, it's true that we all have to fight our own battles in the end, but it's also true that having some significant support and encouragement can help a lot.
Do you have any other realistic options for seeking therapy from someone else? How do you feel about this guy, other than his lack of support.
I'm a bit worried that he didn't want to explore the hunger stike thing with you also. Especially since you frame it as a form a self injury. I would think most therapists would consider that an important topic for therapy. Especially since you did bring it up (at least in your note).
Concerned about you.
peg
Posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 22:33:08
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
Okay,
I had dinner with a good friend. She basically strong-armed me into going to dinner with her (that's what friends are for, right?). And I told her what went on in the session with T, and she agrees with you guys. (She has experience with multiple T's and pdocs) There is something cold about how T decided to handle my cry for help.But there are a lot of things that I'm trying to figure out about what happened today. First of all, let's say I had a panic attack in the first 5 minutes of the session. my mouth was completely dry, and my heart was pounding so hard I thought I would die. And T is asking me: what am I afraid of. And I said "being here" "going to the hospital" but that's not the truth. The truth is that I'm scared of HIM! mistake number one.
So, I think both T and I agreed that my biggie problem is that I supress feelings. It's a pretty powerful habit. At first, limited to my interactions with a few people (like, um my family?) But then lately, I deny and supress feelings related to just about everything. There is SO much truth to this, it's frightening. I had a rehearsal tonight (I'm a musician) and I was trying to 'feel' the music, instead of thinking my way through it. Oh my GOD. I have gotten so analytical that I have forgotten what MUSIC is. I was able to turn on the feelings for a few minutes at a time, but they were too intense. I felt really uncomfortable. I actually left rehearsal an hour early, because I felt physically ill. If I can't FEEL when I play music (which should be a very safe and natural circumstance to let raw emotions take a prominant role, right?) then I realized that it's going to be a long struggle to learn how to FEEL and how to manage those feelings as I go through other events in my life, particularly my personal face-to-face interactions. I rarely tell people how I feel, really, because I rarely tell myself how I feel. Does that make any sense?
Mistake number 2: I ask T point-blank about who I should call in a crisis. Call your husband. Call your friend. mumbling something about some suicide crisis line... I SHOULD HAVE TOLD T how that made me feel. I was kind of disappointed, but I didn't realize how much it hurt me until I was out of the session.
I know that T can't always be "on". He is pretty insightful and helps me make sense of a lot of this. I think my goal with him is to use our sessions as an opportunity for me to practice experiencing feelings (like when he pisses me off, or confuses me, or hurts me) and then reporting them accurately. Not waiting until hours/days/years later to try to put the pieces together.
So, one of his strengths is that he has figured out a lot of this stuff given fragmented and contradictory information given by a panicked and unfeeling client (patient?)
BUT, I think he's kind of like me. He's more analytical and less "touchy-feely". He uses feelings in order to talk about causes and effects, but maybe what I need help with is understanding the feelings themselves, not their sources, but their manifestations (their phenomenology wink wink).
I'm kind of not so self-confident right now. I'm too scared to ask him whether he "cares" if I get better. I know he wants me to get better, but that's different. It's analytical and practical to want me to get better. It's more emotional and feeling-y to care for me to get better.
Well, all in all, a very interesting day. I think maybe I'm stronger than I was before. I realized that there's no one to pick up the pieces. I better not break myself, huh?
Posted by fallsfall on May 25, 2006, at 6:58:14
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 22:33:08
It is hard for those of us who weren't in the room to assess your session. And we don't know what your therapist's motives are. One thing we DO know, though, is that you seem to be stronger today than you were yesterday. So while I might not agree with your therapist's tactics, I'm not sure that he wasn't succesful. My therapist keeps saying (when I try to critique other people's sessions) that noone but the two in the room know what is going on, and he warns vehemently against trying to armchair quarterback because from the outside we can't know what the therapist's thinking is.
It is very common to figure out after the session that you feel a particular way, and to wish that you could have figured it out IN the session and said something. Finally (after 11 years in therapy), last session I was able to identify that his interpretation didn't help, and I was able to say "But that isn't really helpful". He acknowledged that I was probably right and was able to come up with something else that WAS more helpful. But it has taken me 11 years to get to a place where I can recognize a problem in the session and deal with it then and there. So this is a learned skill. Recognizing things after the fact is the first step.
What kind of therapy does he do? (choices include Cognitive-Behavioral, Psychodynamic, Family Systems, Interpersonal, eclectic (which basically means they mix and match))
What would happen if you told him that you needed some strategies to deal with the suicidal feelings?
He IS correct in that you DO have to decide for yourself whether you will live or die. But my take is that you could use some help dealing with the panic of having suicidal feelings, so that you can more clearheadedly make that decision.
When do you see him next? I would encourage you to see him again and ask some of these questions.
And I definately think that you should ask him why you can't call him in a crisis. He does seem to think that you are pretty strong (which, by the way I agree with). But even strong people need some help.
Posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 8:30:16
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG » llrrrpp, posted by fallsfall on May 25, 2006, at 6:58:14
> It is hard for those of us who weren't in the room to assess your session. And we don't know what your therapist's motives are. One thing we DO know, though, is that you seem to be stronger today than you were yesterday. So while I might not agree with your therapist's tactics, I'm not sure that he wasn't succesful. My therapist keeps saying (when I try to critique other people's sessions) that noone but the two in the room know what is going on, and he warns vehemently against trying to armchair quarterback because from the outside we can't know what the therapist's thinking is.
Yes, I think my immediate reaction which I posted on babble was pretty disorganized and tinged with panic and despair, certainly emotional exhaustion.
I don't know what the technique was, but I think T was successful in making me feel responsible for my own progress. I probably wanted someone to hold my hand, but that's not a realistic expectation. We have to be strong enough to fight our own demons.
> It is very common to figure out after the session that you feel a particular way, and to wish that you could have figured it out IN the session and said something. Finally (after 11 years in therapy), last session I was able to identify that his interpretation didn't help, and I was able to say "But that isn't really helpful". He acknowledged that I was probably right and was able to come up with something else that WAS more helpful. But it has taken me 11 years to get to a place where I can recognize a problem in the session and deal with it then and there. So this is a learned skill. Recognizing things after the fact is the first step.
>
> What kind of therapy does he do? (choices include Cognitive-Behavioral, Psychodynamic, Family Systems, Interpersonal, eclectic (which basically means they mix and match))I asked him at the first session. He's kind of mix and matched. He said that people don't come with an instruction manual, so it's important to be flexible. we do some CBT, and some intrapersonal, and I don't know what else, probably psycho-dynamic, although I warned him that if he gives me Freud's interpretation of the feminine mind I'd be pretty upset! It depends on what issue I bring up.
> What would happen if you told him that you needed some strategies to deal with the suicidal feelings?
Well, he said that what I did the last 2 times are good strategies. Talk to someone until I'm exhausted, take my medicine, and promise not to get out of bed.
> He IS correct in that you DO have to decide for yourself whether you will live or die. But my take is that you could use some help dealing with the panic of having suicidal feelings, so that you can more clearheadedly make that decision.Yeah, I think he underestimated how panicked I was.
> When do you see him next? I would encourage you to see him again and ask some of these questions.
>
> And I definately think that you should ask him why you can't call him in a crisis. He does seem to think that you are pretty strong (which, by the way I agree with). But even strong people need some help.I see him in 1 week. I'll ask him some of these questions, but I'm scared of being hurt if I ask him why I can't call HIM in a crisis. I don't think that there's an answer to that question which would make me feel good. It's a lose-lose.
If it's 'policy' not to contact T directly, then I'll be upset because 'policy' is more important than my safety. I'll be upset at the system, and I'll be upset at T, because he doesnt' make exception to the rules.
If T doesn't want me to intrude into his personal time, then I'll be upset because his boundary is more important than my safety.
Thanks for all of your thoughts, posters. I know I've been pretty incoherent, but that's the name of the game. Thanks for helping me make sense out of some of the fragments of this complicated interaction. I'm not sure if I'll ever figure out what's really going on, but at least I'm working on it. -llrrrpp
Posted by Racer on May 25, 2006, at 12:48:21
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 8:30:16
> > I think T was successful in making me feel responsible for my own progress. I probably wanted someone to hold my hand, but that's not a realistic expectation. We have to be strong enough to fight our own demons.
But we also need to learn to ask for help when we need it.
Truly, LL (I need something short to call you), don't underestimate the importance of that lesson, nor the difficulty in learning it. And your T's methods here might just make it that much harder for you to learn that.
Admittedly, that's one of my issues, so there's some projection going on here. But what I'm reading in your post screams at me that you're not comfortable asking for help, and that you feel as though you MUST take care of everything for yourself in order to prove your competence. That's not necessarily any more healthy than being completely dependent on someone else. It's what I call Pathological Independence, and I don't think it's uncommon in smart women.
>
>
> I see him in 1 week. I'll ask him some of these questions, but I'm scared of being hurt if I ask him why I can't call HIM in a crisis. I don't think that there's an answer to that question which would make me feel good. It's a lose-lose.
>And that's a huge red flag to me: if you can't ask about that, then you don't have a good therapeutic alliance with this guy. If you can't trust him to help you in a crisis, that's also not acceptable. Truly -- you gotta trust this guy, or it's not going to do you any good.
And, take it from one who's been through it, a bad therapeutic alliance, with a T you don't trust, can do a hell of a lot of lasting damage.
>
> Thanks for all of your thoughts, posters. I know I've been pretty incoherent, but that's the name of the game. Thanks for helping me make sense out of some of the fragments of this complicated interaction. I'm not sure if I'll ever figure out what's really going on, but at least I'm working on it. -llrrrpp
>And you haven't exactly sounded incoherent to me. Maybe it's just those silly things like paragraphs and syntax and all that, but your posts are always clear and easy to read. Just a reality check for you there...
Posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 13:04:42
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG » llrrrpp, posted by Racer on May 25, 2006, at 12:48:21
Pathological Independence.
My life is becoming more clear to me all the time. My little brother, a perenially well-adjusted and satisfied guy sent me an email recently where he satirized my relationship with my husband, who needs to "teach my way-too independent sister" a thing or two. Racer, I think you're on to something. Why does life have to hit me over the head a few times before I listed to it? Well thanks for hitting me over the head, so to speak. Smart women syndrome. yes, you bet. Perhaps we take too many cues from the guys concerning this?I think T is not so concerned about my ability to reach out for help because I have been getting better about that. First of all, I am really open with my husband, and T knows this. Second, I have confided in several close friends, one of whom I have explained the life-threatening nature of my condition, and who is okay being my safety net, since husband is often out of town. T knows this, and he was proud of me. T doesn't know about psycho-babble (I HOPE!!! T- stop reading this- no fair!), but that's another example of me reaching out for help.
I'm going to give it a few more weeks to forge a "therapeutic alliance" before I make a decision to switch T's. I'm happy to be aware of these warning signs, however, and I really take your advice to heart.
Racer, and all others,
ll or LL is the perfect nickname. I think you know too much sometimes :)
-ll
Posted by fallsfall on May 25, 2006, at 16:17:39
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG ? Racer, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 13:04:42
I was thinking "Lurp"... If I needed to say it out loud...
Posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 16:31:20
In reply to Re: maybe the hardest talking I've ever done. LonG » llrrrpp, posted by fallsfall on May 25, 2006, at 16:17:39
llrrrpp yeah, I guess "lurp" is fair enough. It sounds awful! haha. kind of appropriate for poor depressed me. :o) :o)
Actually, it's an acronym for my nickname bestowed on me by a loved one.
l.l.r.r.r.p.p.
l.lapiderroodyroodyrexlapexlapooGOOD LUCK with that one. Only 2 people in the whole wide world know what it is, and how it's pronounced. the rest of you can use your vivid imaginations.
Posted by Racer on May 25, 2006, at 20:47:16
In reply to llrrrpp the name » fallsfall, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 16:31:20
> llrrrpp yeah, I guess "lurp" is fair enough. It sounds awful!
That's what came to my mind, and why I mentioned it -- I was about to type "Lrp," but didn't want to offend you!
> Actually, it's an acronym for my nickname bestowed on me by a loved one.
> l.l.r.r.r.p.p.
> l.lapiderroodyroodyrexlapexlapoo
>
> GOOD LUCK with that one. Only 2 people in the whole wide world know what it is, and how it's pronounced. the rest of you can use your vivid imaginations.
>Well, I can't quite come close on it, but it sounds like someone singing scat, or ska... But then there's the "lapider-" part, which makes me think of rocks...
{shrug} There are still only the two of you, I guess...
Posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 22:03:23
In reply to Re: llrrrpp the name » llrrrpp, posted by Racer on May 25, 2006, at 20:47:16
Well, the person who made it up for me has a language disorder. I think that goes a long way to explaining why it's so random. It's not English, it's not Latin, it's not hip. It's the by-product of some temporal lobe malfunction. But I think it's sweet. Mess it up however you will, you wont offend me. The ((((loved one))) can't speak well and is profoundly dyslexic & spells it differently every time, but *I* know how it's really spelled. And I know it's a term of endearment :)
L or LL or Ll or lrp or any combination of lurpses and burpses, whatever. I'll forgive whatever you address me as, just don't hurt my feelings in the content of the post. I'm fragiler than I want to be.Yours,
llrrrpp
Posted by Racer on May 26, 2006, at 0:36:07
In reply to Re: llrrrpp the name, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 22:03:23
Posted by Racer on May 26, 2006, at 0:36:31
In reply to Re: llrrrpp the name, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 22:03:23
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2006, at 7:41:00
In reply to Re: llrrrpp the name, posted by llrrrpp on May 25, 2006, at 22:03:23
I wish I had a name like that.
Lar
Posted by llrrrpp on May 26, 2006, at 8:45:06
In reply to Re: llrrrpp the name » llrrrpp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2006, at 7:41:00
You *do* have a name like that. It's just that the person who loves you hasn't told you yet.
I think we carry around a lot of endearing nicknames for our loved ones, and we're too embarrassed to say them aloud, or we don't want to give them the opportunity to reject it. I'm happy to be someone's llrrrpp. I'm glad I never rejected it.
Posted by muffled on May 26, 2006, at 21:06:38
In reply to maybe the hardest talking I've ever done, posted by llrrrpp on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:57
This is the end of the thread.
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