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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
I can't believe what stupid things people say sometimes.
I'm really trying to keep myself safe. Really, I am. So I called a friend to go spend time with, thinking it would be better than being home alone. And she is a good enough friend to tell most of my crud to, including how bad I've been feeling, even the suicidal feelings. She doesn't know all of it, some of it I can't tell her. But she knows enough. So what did she say?
"I think therapy is making you a thousand times worse. You need to stop going, stop thinking about the past and stop over-analyzing everything." She went on to say that she thinks my therapist is wrong to encourage such a deep connection to him, because it is only hurtful and keeps me coming when it isn't doing me any good.
I literally stopped eating and had my mouth open. I asked her what I had said that made her arrive at such a conclusion. I mean, I know we've always disagreed about the frequency of my therapy, she thinks it is way too much. But to stop, right now? Right now when I feel like jumping off the nearest bridge? She said I always make my therapy and therapist sound helpful, but she sees the "evidence" as otherwise. And she asked, completely sincerely, "what could you possibly talk about everyday? I didn't have that much to say even once per week." She went on to tell me how helpful her own therapist is/was because she was "tough" and told her exactly what to do and how to solve specific problems. And then she said, "I don't want to hurt you but have you ever thought that your therapist might not really want you to be this attached to him? Maybe you only think he is OK with your intense feelings, maybe he isn't encouraging your connection, perhaps you are just thinking he is. If I were a therapist, I think I'd get sick of people needing me all the time. I think you should be prepared when he finally tells you enough is enough."
I actually started to cry, right there in the restaurant. Part of me knows she is completely wrong and part of me believed her. I don't know what to do now, I don't know who to hang on to. How do you know when enough is enough? I'm certainly not an easy therapy client... I left and came home and have been crying for the last hour. I feel like a little girl again, I'm so confused and lost. I don't know how to save myself and I don't know who to trust or believe.
These are old, old feelings. But even though I recognize them as old, they still hurt. I'm definitely spending the weekend in my closet.
Posted by zenhussy on January 27, 2007, at 0:34:16
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
GAH! that's such the not helpful reaction from a friend *especially* at this time!
((Daisy)) You're in the middle of going through...not around...no long avoiding....but through.
guess your friend found a different path that worked for her. bully for her. you have different needs. you survived in a different way than she did...perhaps she sought therapy for her compulsive tea cup collecting ? ;)......just know that her way was HER way and your way is YOUR way.
your way *is* working Daisy as you've grown stronger in so many ways that you're not able to see at this moment.
bundle up. snuggle in. hide. fooey on the friend. stay the course...that is the course of healing...staying safe...staying connected to your therapeutic anchor....and all those other things you've been doing to stay alive...and that have kept you moving FORWARD....we're sorry your friend can't yet see your progress and your growth....we've seen a bunch over the years "here" online. nuts to her. be KIND to you please.
kindly,
--zh
Posted by vwoolf on January 27, 2007, at 0:43:10
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
Daisy, how awful. It sounds like she expressed all the cruelest thoughts and doubts that you carry in your head about therapy and that you struggle so much to overcome. You know she's wrong.
On a deep level there are things you just know are different now. You know how intimately connected you and your t are. It's not just your imagination. It is a dependency, but one that you need, have always needed, and that at last is being filled. He will not get sick of you. He has shown you that over and over. You know that this is good for you, even though it may hurt.
I think she is repeating the old cruel voices from the past. You need to hold to what is new and different about this relationship so that you can contradict those old ways of relating. This is your hope for the future, your hope for change. Don't push it away again.
Don't let her words get to you. You know what she says is not true.
Sending very warm strong thoughts.
Posted by annierose on January 27, 2007, at 5:38:46
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
OMG - Daisy - she was not being very friend-like. She doesn't understand because she hasn't enjoyed the gift of a therapeutic bond. It takes a special therapist and a wonderful client to go forth through the murky waters and come together with a mutual understanding of your life's story. Few people receive this gift, and you have.
Yes, your T wants you to be connected with him. He encourages you to call, check-in, etc. because right now you need that. You need him.
I'm sorry she added to your hurt. Camp Comfort would have been a great place to spend the evening!!
Posted by madeline on January 27, 2007, at 7:33:08
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
I have a lot of friends like that - the ones that feel the need to tell the "truth" the way they see it - whether or not I elicit their opinion.
I used to be very "put off" by them, as I was absolutely convinced that I was right - my path the only true way and, as a friend, they were to agree with me.
But now, I really value their input, if for no other reason than it is a pair of fresh eyes on the problem. I don't have to agree, but they are nice to have around.
Ultimately we decide what we do, but friends can certainly help us to examine our motives, see a different perspective and potentially open a different frame of mind we didn't know was there.
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time right now and I'm glad you are reaching out to people. I think in her own little way, your friend was reaching back.
Take good care of yourself.
Maddie
Posted by sunnydays on January 27, 2007, at 9:38:55
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
(((((((((((Daisy)))))))))))))
I'm so so sorry your friend reacted like that. I think that's my worst nightmare of how a friend would react, but luckily my friends seem to understand, or at least the ones I tell things to. But you know what she said isn't true, right? Your therapist cares about you very very much. She obviously was doing a different kind of therapy than you. It's perfectly ok to be so attached to your therapist, and he has told you that explicitly so so many times, I hope you can hold onto that. Can you call him and tell him what happened? From what you've said about him I think he'd want you to. He's not going to get sick of you. I know it's so so hard to believe - my therapist and I just had this conversation the other day, but I promise you're doing the right thing. Hang in there.
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on January 27, 2007, at 9:51:41
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
Daisy, she might have been trying to help, but I can't see how she thought the second part of what she was saying could possibly be helpful. It even contradicted the first part of what she was saying. :(
There are enough people around this area that believe therapists are a bad idea, and are just out to attach you to them to take your money, that I'm rather used to hearing that. Some people just don't understand long term relationship based therapy, and some people don't understand therapy at all.
I'm glad that what works for her, works for her. That's why there are all different sorts of therapists. A "tough" therapist wouldn't work well for me at all.
But she had no right to speak for your therapist. She said she wouldn't like to be needed, and I rather think she's right about that. But that's a statement about her, not your therapist. And any statements she made that arose from that basic fact about her are reflections of her own thinking, not your therapist's. It's information about her, and information that it's likely useful to have. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your therapist. You have had many discussions with your therapist about this, and he's made it clear enough what he feels and thinks to make her suggestions that you are misunderstanding him moot. It just means that she and your therapist are two very different types of people.
Be glad your therapist is the type he is, and please call him if you're feeling distressed. My therapist would be quite upset if I sat with my feelings all weekend and had them all built up by Monday. He'd want to clarify his position right away, because he'd know the longer it went on the more upset I'd be.
Posted by caraher on January 27, 2007, at 10:20:42
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
Everyone else has said all the things I'd like to say. I'm sorry your friend made you feel so bad. I know she meant to help, but it sounds like she managed to push all the wrong buttons in the most painful sequence. I hope you emerge from your hidey-hole soon! (((daisy)))
Posted by mair on January 27, 2007, at 11:02:38
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
Daisy - I can't add alot either. I do think you should call your T if you continue to be upset about this. I agree with Dinah - I don't think he'd want you struggling with this all weekend on your own.
I had a somewhat similar experience although not anywhere near as awful as yours because the person who made the comment didn't know that I have depression, so it wasn't directed at me. One night my husband and I were having dinner with 3 or three other couples, all of whom are social friends, but not necessarily close. We were talking about somethig very negative, although now I can't remember what it was. One woman, who is a therapist, made some comment like "God it would be almost as bad as living with a depressed person if you can imagine that." And then she made this face and literally, physically shuddered!
I go through periods when I think that I must be so awful to live with and I think I was in one of those periods then. And what instantly occurred to me was that my T probably felt the same way as this friend, and that whatever she said about how she didn't think I dragged my family down and more importantly, about how much she liked me and enjoyed working with me, were all big huge lies.
I know how much your friend's comments sting, because the far more innocuous comments made by my friend, now years ago, still sting when I think about them.
mair
Posted by toojane on January 27, 2007, at 11:12:16
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
> "I think therapy is making you a thousand times worse. You need to stop going, stop thinking about the past and stop over-analyzing everything."
I think people who talk like this haven't got a clue. It isn't that they are purposefully being hurtful, they simply are obtuse.If it were as easy as "stop thinking about the past" I'm positive you would have done that already. The solutions to most problems seem very simple on the surface...
If you are anorexic, eat
If you have OCD, stop washing your hands
If you agoraphobic, go outside
If you are schizophrenic, stop hallucinating
If you have PTSD, stop having flashbacksThe real problem is HOW to do those things.
I am plagued by terrifying nightmares that make it impossible to sleep. The obvious solution is to stop having nightmares but HOW do I make myself stop dreaming?
Your therapist knows much more about you and your problem than your friend does. Unless she has some miraculous method for erasing the past, with instructions that are a bit more detailed than just stop thinking about it, I wouldn't put too much weight in her opinion.
Posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 19:10:13
In reply to Friends are confusing., posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 0:10:51
My friend called this morning to apologize for upsetting me. She said she thinks she was actually kind of mad at me because she has been needing me and she is used to me being her rock. It is scary for her to see me falling apart and she has a lot she needs help with. I'm her go-to person. I told her how sorry I am that I haven't been a good friend but that she isn't allowed to screw with my head right now about therapy, I'm too fragile. She said she wasn't necessarily taking back what she said about my therapy, she still doesn't get the frequency nor that attachment.
My therapist called me just after lunch and we talked about all of this. (This was the deal instead of the hospital, daily check in calls.) He said straight out that she was wrong, that he isn't sick of me. But he said I need to do some education with her, because a lot of people don't understand trauma therapy and the depth of the treatment. He told me to tell her that I wasn't pathologically dependent, that I was lucky to be able to do this for myself. He said I should be more honest with her about the severity of the csa, maybe that would help her understand my need for him and his willingness to be needed so much. And then he said she was likely projecting her own feelings about being needed onto him. And maybe she is jealous...
I quickly replied that she can't have him. He laughed and said he knew that. "I'm here for you, not her. But I don't want you to lose a good friend either. You need people right now." And before he hung up he reassured me (again!) that he is totally OK with how close we are and the amount of contact we have. He reminded me that, at least right now, these are his rules - the daily check ins. So I can let go of that fear for a little while.
Has anyone else educated someone about their therapy? What do you say? It isn't like she hasn't done therapy, I just get the sense that we have very (VERY) different ideas about how best to use therapy. I've met her therapist, btw. She recommended her to me when I first started this process, even though she was currently seeing her. (something I never could have done.) And her therapist was willing to work with me, but her style freaked me out (she held my hands trying to demonstrate something) even though she was very nice.
Anyway, thanks for all the support. I'm so glad you guys understand.
Daisy
Posted by mair on January 28, 2007, at 11:00:30
In reply to Thanks. Friends here are NOT confusing, posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 19:10:13
Right now you have a tremendous need and fortunately, you have a great therapist who understands those needs. You don't need to ever be defensive about that.
mair
Posted by littleone on January 28, 2007, at 22:27:43
In reply to Thanks. Friends here are NOT confusing, posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 19:10:13
> My friend called this morning to apologize for upsetting me. She said she thinks she was actually kind of mad at me because she has been needing me and she is used to me being her rock. It is scary for her to see me falling apart and she has a lot she needs help with. I'm her go-to person.
I know you were real upset with your earlier conversation with her, but I was really impressed that your friendship was open and honest enough for her to be able to tell you this.
Does this mean that you really value this friendship and want to bring her round to your way of thinking so you can rely on her in this sort of situation in future? Or do you think it would plateau out at a lower level of friendship? Sorry, but I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted/hoped for/thought was realistic/etc. The entire friendship concept confuses me.
> I told her how sorry I am that I haven't been a good friend but that she isn't allowed to screw with my head right now about therapy, I'm too fragile.
Yay for you!!!! I was so happy to hear you say this. This is a really great stand-up-for-yourself step forward. You did so good.
> Has anyone else educated someone about their therapy? What do you say?
Kind of. A couple of times I've been kind of forced to explain some things to my husband. I'm not sure about what you should/shoudn't say to your friend, but I found the following important when talking to my husband:
- had to be really clear in my head up front about it all. Had to know what I did (and didn't) want to tell him. Had to know why I wanted to tell, ie what I wanted to get out of it, eg just to inform him (in which case his reaction doesn't matter), or whether I wanted him to understand and validate, or whether I wanted him to change a behaviour and understanding the why's would help him do this, etc.
- had to be really clear in my head up front as to how I would tell him what I had to, what words I would use, played it out in my head.
- it also helped me to say up front that I needed to tell him something and to not be interupted, but he could talk afterwards. This helped me to run through my script so I could say what had to be said and then just try and cope with whatever questions/statements came from him afterwards.
- I don't know if this would apply to you, but I would find it very scary to do this because if it worked, it would deepen the friendship and may bring more responsibility to me. But that's just me and I have no idea if you have those fears or not (or if the opposite is true and you are longing to deepen the friendship). Like I said, I don't get the whole "friends" thing at all.
- it might help to clarify up front again that you need to have this talk without hearing her attack your therapy.
- it might also help to have some sort of signal up front, like a word/phrase, that you can say if it is getting too threatening for you. eg if you start to feel young and can't cope with the conversation, you may need to bail out (for a little while) and take it up again another time.
I guess another thing to remember is that people here are supportive of you because they understand you and your T and the process you're going through. That has only come about over time. It might take time for her to understand too, so maybe you shouldn't give up straight away if she doesn't come around. It really depends on what she and your friendship is like I guess.
I hope your talk goes well.
Posted by Daisym on January 28, 2007, at 23:21:54
In reply to Re: Thanks. Friends here are NOT confusing » Daisym, posted by mair on January 28, 2007, at 11:00:30
It is hard though, isn't it? I find myself defensive a lot, but I think it is because this is clearly the most selfish thing I've ever done for myself. Necessary maybe, but selfish too.
I know things aren't easy for you right now either. Maybe if we co-lean on each other, right?
Posted by Daisym on January 28, 2007, at 23:30:25
In reply to Re: Thanks. Friends here are NOT confusing » Daisym, posted by littleone on January 28, 2007, at 22:27:43
I've been friends with this person for more than 21 years, she is one of my best friends, and we have a shared history that makes it worth working this out with her. It's funny because when I was talking to my therapist, I actually noted that it was more important to work things out with her than with my husband, from whom I'm separated. The hard part is that most, if not all, of my friendships have pretty much been "they need me" kinds of friendships. I've always been the steady one, practical and all that. I guess I'm the mom of the group. The past few years have shifted that, I can't be there for them as much as I used to be. And I'd like to reach out more, which I've been working on. I can do it for a little while and then I hide myself away again.
We talked some last night, she came over and brought the movie: Little Miss Sunshine. I had no idea what this movie was about! We talked about why I didn't think the end was "cute" like most people do - sexualizing a young child is not funny to me. My friend told me I was too sensitive, and I agreed with her. But I am, so there we are. It was a good jumping off point for a discussion though and I think she understands more why I've chosen this type of in-depth therapy.
Blah - it was hard though. I just want people to instantly understand and not challenge me on anything right now. I feel like the walking wounded.
Thanks for your reply. It helps.
Posted by muffled on January 29, 2007, at 13:18:46
In reply to Re: Thanks. Friends » littleone, posted by Daisym on January 28, 2007, at 23:30:25
I was watching 'annie' w/my irl kid. Some parts, lotsa parts are prettyy bad. I didn't know. I thot it a famous movie, but its not so good to me. Lotsa bad stuff.
Sorry bout your friend Daisy.
Muffled
Posted by Orchid on January 29, 2007, at 16:56:50
In reply to Thanks. Friends here are NOT confusing, posted by Daisym on January 27, 2007, at 19:10:13
The one concern that I always felt with this detailed therapy approach, is its toll on the physical health and perhaps on the wiring of the brain. With this kind of intense stress over a course of several years, I think our body will likely feel its effect and we might end up developing some chronic illness. Even our brains wiring might go erratic and we might end up developing things like ocd etc.
If a person is in early 20 s or so, then it is completely good to do such a thorough clean up work, since they have to build their life entirely after that. So I would think even if we suffer for a few years, then the rest of the life will be good so it is worth it. And our bodies are also more resilient at that young age.
But when we become middle aged, I doubt if the value that we get at the end out of this intense suffering over several years, trying to solve all the issues, is worth the stress and the strain on the mind and the body. A more patchwork and dealing with the issues then and there on a minimal supportive level also might be considered. Especially with people prone to developing illness due to stress (since I have rheumatoid arthritis, I am particulary concerned about the effect of stress on the physical body. but it may not be fully applicable for a very healthy person).
I remember you are about 40 + and have already been under intense emotional stress for 2 - 3 years. If you remain at this level of stress for another 2-3 years, while trying to heal fully, it might take a toll on your body. Please keep that in mind also. I do not think you should give up therapy. But maybe ask your therapist about how long he thinks it would take before your stress level returns to normal, and maybe another approach would be to take it on a less intense level but over a longer period of time.
I don't have any answer, but just raising some concern I always had. Please take care.
Posted by littleone on January 30, 2007, at 14:31:43
In reply to Re: Thanks. Friends » littleone, posted by Daisym on January 28, 2007, at 23:30:25
> We talked some last night, she came over and brought the movie: Little Miss Sunshine. I had no idea what this movie was about! We talked about why I didn't think the end was "cute" like most people do - sexualizing a young child is not funny to me. My friend told me I was too sensitive, and I agreed with her. But I am, so there we are.
I've never seen this movie, so can't comment on the ending, but I do understand what you mean. And I think that's perfectly okay that you had a different feeling about the end. I think I would too. I find that I'm becoming increasing "sensitive" to movies and society viewpoints. I think I'm quietly appalled at a lot of the things put forward as "entertainment". Sometimes I feel sad to be part of this society.
> It was a good jumping off point for a discussion though and I think she understands more why I've chosen this type of in-depth therapy.
Well done Daisy. Another good step towards protecting yourself and standing up for your younger parts. You did so well. I'm glad she's gained a clearer understanding. Regardless of whether she agrees with it or not, hopefully she would be more supportive and understanding of you next time you need her help.
> Blah - it was hard though. I just want people to instantly understand and not challenge me on anything right now. I feel like the walking wounded.Yes, it is very hard. I find the hardest part in these things is tolerating the vulnerability that comes with exposing/opening and then continuing to stand up in the face of disagreement. I'm glad it went well. You deserve a soothing comforting rest after that (you could always stop off at camp comfort if you like - I hear there's some real pretty flowers there you can pick and put in a little vase on your windowsill and they have nice soft window seats so you can curl up there and just watch the garden go by).
Be gentle with yourself.
This is the end of the thread.
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