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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
I had a session today that seemed pretty routine. Among other topics, I told him about a rather trivial incident recently with my DH involving sex. We talked about it in our usual terms, framing it about about the relationship etc. Pretty relaxed, close session. After I got back to work, I suddenly realized that that simple discussion was the tip of the iceberg. There was a TON of negative stuff tied up with sex, all these years of little degrading stuff, that I had not let myself think about, all these little things I felt such guilt and shame about - so much so that I never even considered telling him. I realized now the background behind some of my more isolated, extreme reactions over the years that neither he nor I had understood, because I insisted there was nothing there really so that's what we finally concluded. I thought I was just being a typical "hysteric" (a silly psychological label, sort of like an astrological sign, like I'm a scorpio.) I realized why I need to "psych" myself up to have sex, have the fantasies that I do, and sometimes it's just too damn much trouble to talk myself into a mental place where I can have sex, even though I think of myself as a sexual person. (And with whom would that be?) I realize there was so much there, that I'd never have a healthy sex life with all that stuff inside me. Maybe I wouldn't anyway - I'd hardly be the first woman to arrive at that conclusion. But as it is, I can barely look my T in the eye when we talk about sex. I should have known there was something up because I'm not normally a person who cannot "even say the words." I'm pretty forthright and accepting - about other people's sexualities no matter what they are - but apparently mine is another story entirely. Such hypocrisy.
The thing is, as close as we are, I really can't see myself telling my T these things. I can't imagine shaping the words, I can't imagine not feeling "like I asked for it." I don't think I can tell anyone. Maybe it's harder to tell him because I do feel so close to him and I'm afraid of what he will think. He would be all comforting and supportive and therapist-y but I would be convinced that deep down he would feel differently about me in a bad way. This is just another part of what I don't like about myself and I just don't know that I can "confess" past things that I find too difficult and humiliating to acknowledge even to myself. It's just there. When do you consider things that are "just there" as problems and when do you just suck it up as part of your past and live with it? I cannnot believe that after all these years, this stuff has just been sitting in the background, always there, unseen because it is so taken for granted, part of the fabric of my psyche, like those little habits and foibles we wouldn't dream of sharing with anyone because there would be no point and it would just be too damn embarrassing and just make you feel worse about yourself. Do such open people and relationships really exist, where they are completely open to each other and can do this? I really don't know how to deal with all this. I have to think before the next session, which is soon. I know what my advice would be to someone else but can't imagine taking it myself. Maybe I'm making a big deal of nothing and most women feel this way about sex, deep down. But somehow I doubt it. Why would I hear about other people's experiences that sound so different than mine? Are they all lying?
Sorry for the long post.
Posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2008, at 0:44:41
In reply to I cannot tell my T, posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
I have my reasons valid why I no longer like sex. Love Phillipa
Posted by JayMac on September 16, 2008, at 1:37:44
In reply to I cannot tell my T, posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
Lucie,
Sex is such an intimate topic. Really try not to beat yourself up for not being able to talk about sex with your T. Take it as slowly as you need to.I have a hard time speaking with my T about sex. We have touched (no pun intended) upon the subject a little bit here and there. I felt awkward and embarrassed and shamed. When I told her about one of my first sexual experiences, I completely assumed she would be judgmental and punishing, but she was sensitive and encouraging.
Sex is a HUGE topic of discussion. It really shouldn't be taken as lightly as much of our culture suggests. Both men and women, especially women, avoid talking about the aspects of sex(uality) that need to be spoken of.
I'm wondering if you desire your DH, in an emotional way? Do you connect with him?
Take good care,
Jay
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 16, 2008, at 8:59:08
In reply to Re: I cannot tell my T, posted by JayMac on September 16, 2008, at 1:37:44
Unfortunately, I love sex, but haven't "indulged" since my divorce 3 years ago. My t and I talk about sex a lot. Again (unfortunately), I have been in love with him for a long time. Every time I walk into his office, it is a surreal feeling; we make small talk for a short time, and I want to yell at him: "What's the matter with you.......you know I love you, etc., etc...." Where I have found the strength to not act on my feelings is beyond me!
However....dear original poster; it sounds as if you could be safe in discussing sex with your t; I highly doubt he would think any differently of you; if he is a good t, he would be PROUD of you that you brought up the difficult, painful issues. Hey, if we can't tell our t....who can we tell??!!
you could start in little baby steps, broaching it in increments and see where/how he takes it, or responds.
Hugs n Love, Sassy
Posted by Daisym on September 16, 2008, at 10:20:06
In reply to Re: I cannot tell my T, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 16, 2008, at 8:59:08
(((Lucy))))
There is so much pain in what you wrote - I don't think this is something you have to just "suck up and live with." As you examine your feelings, can you start with trying to understand why there is so much shame in talking about this?
The foundation of trust you've already built with your therapist will hold. No matter what you tell him, he knows who you really are. You might surprise him - including your reluctance to talk about something that is so important. I think one of the reasons sex is a difficult topic in therapy (more so than others) because most of the time when we talk about sex with girlfriends, etc. we are all sharing. And we don't usually go into all the details, which can happen in therapy. Some people have said that it is easier to talk to a female therapist about sex, but I think for me, it would be equally difficult. A sense of humor helps a lot.
As I've sorted through how my past has effected my sex life, I've figured out a couple of things. Sometimes it is hard because I have old fears that my therapist will hurt me, sexually, because he knows the vulnerable spots. Of course he never would - and I know that with one part of me - but the fear remains. I've worried about turning him on too - and then how would be deal with that? This circles back into my fear of turning men into sexual monsters.
And then there is the whole "strong, smart woman" thing. I should know all of this - I can't even begin to tell you how humiliated I was to admit that I didn't know how to say "no" to my husband when he wanted to do stuff I didn't. I thought I had to. I was mortified that I would feel young and small and cry over things that were so normal for adults. It took a long time for me to come to terms that I was in an abusive marriage. Sexually and emotionally abusive.
But as we've had these conversations more and more, I've learned how to talk about things. Sometimes it is easier than others. I still find it hard to talk about my own desires and what I might find pleasurable. Or what I have found pleasurable and why. But these are important things to figure out and usually I end up feeling closer to my therapist.
I hope you can figure out a way to bring it up. It sounds so important.
Posted by antigua3 on September 16, 2008, at 12:09:53
In reply to I cannot tell my T, posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
Baby steps. You have to take baby steps and just start with one thing. You don't have to spill everything at once (unless you're like me and a blurter!). I think you just need to get it all out, at whatever pace is comfortable for you.
Sex is huge. I didn't know how important it really was. I mean, I knew I didn't like/want to do certain things because they triggered me. You'd think I would have known better, but once I identified the triggers and what they brought forth, sex became easier, and I've learned to say No!
I recently divulged something about sex that was really important to me to my pdoc, who is male. While he says he wasn't judgmental, I still feel he was, which is my past speaking. I don't know, I wish I hadn't told him now, but it's out there now and I can't take it back. For me, it has to do w/trust, that my pdoc won't take this info and throw it back in my face. I'm not convinced yet that he won't. The reason I'm afraid is that I will think that it was my fault, which goes back to my SA experiences. I can say intellectually that I know it wasn't my fault, but I guess I don't feel it yet.
That said, my T and I discuss sex freely and sometimes in great detail. And I know she is understanding and kind, but... I still need to know that a man doesn't think I'm disgusting.
So baby steps. Just get it out so it doesn't have power over you anymore. It is funny that we come to a realization like you have and didn't really know it was there before.
best of luck,
antigua
Posted by Wittgensteinz on September 16, 2008, at 15:20:00
In reply to I cannot tell my T, posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
Lucie Lu,
I've found this is a VERY difficult area to work through in therapy (and I'm no where finished with this topic, just have talked a bit on it and then left it), it requires so much courage, pushing through the shame and embarrassment this topic inevitably brings. Actually, I've found these sessions exhausting.
You wrote,
When do you consider things that are "just there" as problems and when do you just suck it up as part of your past and live with it?This thing is an essential part of you - your sexuality, how you feel about sex - it shouldn't be something to just 'suck up' - a person's sexuality is a fundamental part of their being. The idea of talking it out with your T is probably daunting/overwhelming but you can do it - just allow yourself to take small risks, then say a little more when you're ready to.
I was quite a coward, I've written things down and taken them with me, he's then given me the choice of my reading them aloud or him reading them (eeks!) - I chose the former, at least then I could bury my face in a piece of paper and edit as a read - although I owned up to doing that when I let him read it later. It was very hard daring to make eye contact again with him before the end of the session. Humour does help. Then, in the sessions that followed, I was able to talk 'ad lib' and voice words I didn't think I could have in front of him. This is part of being human - T's are human too - this isn't so strange for them. I was also terririfed my T would think differently about me, in a negative away, especially when I shared my feelings toward him - he is an 'old man', older than my father (!), and I am a young woman yet still at a certain point I couldn't deny having certain sexual feelings for him (talk about uncomfortable).
I don't know if it would have been easier with a female T. I doubt I could feel the same trust for a woman. I think I was very much in your frame of mind about the whole thing - just suck it up, it isn't going to help or change. I feel it has helped though talking it through. I had an abusive relationship a few years back which has had a big impact on me and my ability to be intimate with my partner - then add in various things growing up (abuse, physically absent father), and what seems like 'nothing' becomes an intricate and complex issue that needs to be processed. I have to do lots more work on this, kind of putting it off though :)
Maybe the first step is to talk about your apprehension about broaching the topic - share with your T some of the thoughts you voiced here on Babble.
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 16:27:22
In reply to I cannot tell my T, posted by lucie lu on September 15, 2008, at 23:22:01
I met with my T this morning, took a deep breath, and plunged. I was sparing with details but gave him some idea of the feelings I was struggling with. I think we were both surprised at how such an ordinary discussion yesterday triggered all of this. I hardly looked at him, cried, and couldn't speak very easily. He waited with incredible patience when I couldn't speak and then he'd step in so I wouldn't have to face the silence if I didn't want to. He spoke so softly and gently to me. I felt like he really was not yet on base - sexualty is difficult to talk about, many people feel etc - but gave him credit for digging in there and supporting me without knowing anything yet. He said he will call me tonight, and we may schedule another session this week. I said I just didn't want "it" (he understood exactly what I meant - the wound, the abscess, the open thing with no closure) to stay open and he agreed. I said I really didn't want to come on Friday (one phobia at a time is more than enough). So he gets good marks for being there, ready to listen, ready to catch the ball I was throwing without knowing quite what it was. (In a funny coincidence, he just called to tell me a time freed up for me tomorrow so I can have an extra session.) It was kinda funny typing about him and talking to him at the same time. So, he's given me center stage and he's sitting back in the audience, completely attentive and attuned, interested and ready to try to figure this out with me. He's great.At the same time, I do feel what several of you have mentioned. I am really afraid of his reactions. I don't fear what he would say, he's too good for that, but I'm afraid of the ones inside, the ones he really can't control. Will he feel repulsed, as I do? Will he feel aroused? That's an interesting double-bind: if he is, then I'll feel betrayed because my beloved T is acting just like another man (and believe me, in this context that's not a great thing to be right now); but if he isn't, I'll wonder why not - am I such a sexless lump? Am I too old (and unattractive now) to even warrant that reaction? You can see the possibilities, and all of them point to a pretty skewed vision of myself and my sexuality, his sexuality - sex, period.
In answer to whether I am emotionally attracted to my DH, I am still physically attracted and I respond sexually to closeness. I've heard that's not an uncommon reaction amongst "us" but is uncommon for "normal" people (whoever they may be). But when we have intimacy problems, we tend not to feel safe with each other, which leads to avoidance on one or both of our parts. It is easily self-perpetuating.
I am struck by how similar your posts are, not just in what you think would help but what you identify with in my story. I do find it very interesting that we seem to be afraid our T's will turn into beasts, even though we know they would do no such thing. Or would they, and how would we know?
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful, supportive, and loving posts. I'm not feeling too great right now but you are helping me to feel better.
I'll let you know how things went after tomorrow's session. He will have regained his footing by then, which will be interesting to see. I know he knows that I know that he can pronounce all the words, straight-faced, of course. But somehow I can't imagine him being able to get down into the dirt, if you know what I mean, with me - I have no choice but to be there. It should be interesting.
Thank you all so much.
Lucie
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