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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on January 17, 2009, at 15:22:36
I just wrote a long post on this and lost it!! How frustrating. It was so eloquent, too!
Right.I realized by the post above that if the mere mention of FMS sends me into such a rage then it was worth taking a closer look at it to find out why it triggers me so much.
I've already said that I think the disservice that the concept of FMS has done to people who are suffering from repressed or total lack of memories far outweighs its benefits. For me, it makes me jump right to denial, that I made it all up. And the denial--one of my stronger defenses--has impeded, and really hurt, my therapy at times. Funny enough, I was brought up believing for many reasons that "truth" was sacrosanct, so the fear that I may be lying is one of the worst sins I could commit, given my family circumstances. Now I just think how ironic that is, and how I managed to twist family values to hurt myself even further.
I believe that memories can be fully repressed, both in our minds and bodies. Sometimes the memory may be there all along, but we aren't aware of it. For me, I didn't know that an early memory of my father that I always have had was inappropriate until it was pointed out to me by my T and then I consciously realized it was wrong for this to have happened. After that, more memories became clearer, and slowly, bits and pieces, and flashbacks, came forth that were impossible to deny.
Once I got into this, I was driven to remember. I always felt there was "something" more for me to know, and if I just figured out what that something was, I would be "cured." I tried everything to recover memories--EMDR and hypnosis, to name two modalities--and it just didn't work. I can't force the memories to come forth; my T and pdoc have both convinced me that they may never come forth, or will only do so when my mind and body are ready to accept them. I'm OK with that now. I still know "something" else is there because of the fragments I remember surrounding it, but I may never know, or it could be something completely different from what I imagine.
In the beginning with my pdoc, he would want outside "corroboration" of my memories, which made me furious, thinking that he didn't believe me. There is no outside corroboration of what my father did because I was the only one there, but there are things surrounding the events that are suspicious or not quite right and I've been able to "prove" that these things are true. I'm very well aware, however, that doesn't mean that just because A is true, B is true.
With these thoughts in mind, I do believe that our minds naturally want to "complete" our memories, to make sense of the unknowable, and I, at least, have filled in gaps with info that may not be in fact true. But what i've learned that is important is the bits and pieces of what I do remember, and I struggle less with trying to complete the memory.
My T and pdoc have both taught me that it's the fragments that are important, and yes, we can string fragments together in a way that they may not go together (as in thinking X, Y and Z all happened in one night when they may, in fact have occurred at separate times), but that's OK, and probably more right.
So when I hear about FMS being used to discredit someone, I get furious, partly because it makes me question whether what I've remembered is true or not. Even sitting here typing this, given what FMS advocates, I can believe that I made it all up.
But I didn't. At my essence, I know what's true and what may not be because of my desire to "complete" the memory. It's a horrible thought to think that I may believe things that aren't true, so I just try to hold on to what I do know to be true.
antigua
Posted by Looney Tunes on January 17, 2009, at 19:39:43
In reply to FMS, posted by antigua3 on January 17, 2009, at 15:22:36
I am trying to understand why the "FMS people" upset you so much. In many instances that they challenged, it was proven that BAD THERAPY PRACTICES and vulnerable clients did in fact create stories and memories, which in some cases destroyed their family connection for years. That is the SHAMEFUL thing about FMS....FMS says "it is possible to create and implant memories" and numerous research has shown that memories can be implanted and suggested, not just in cases of abuse, but also in cases of murder and in cases where people are arrested that eventually create confessions based on implanted and suggested memories.
Bad therapy was responsible for many of the FMS cases. Clients went from bad to worse and families became destroyed as therapists pushed clients to "remember" and used memory retrieval techniques to get them to remember.
This is why the APA has since said that hyponosis and methods of retrieving memories should not be used with clients who might have suffered abuse. They believe "let the client speak" ~ "do not suggest."
It is also why many doctors and therapists will not 100% say a client was abused or suffered abuse unless there is collaborating evidence.Does FMS discount your experience? NO!
Your experience is your experience and you are in therapy to deal with these issues. At the end of the day, you have to accept what you believe, not your therapist, not your friends, not anyone, but you.
There is also a difference between "implanted memories" and "recovered memories." Implanted memories are those that for whatever reason a person has accepted the memories or stories of another person as real. These then lead to people believing things that never happened.Recovered memories are memories that come without suggestion into a person's knowledge. These memories tend to appear as a person begins to work on issues that are affecting their lives. These can range from simple memories like "when I was 10 I found $20" to complex memories of abuse, turmoil, and pain.
But, they are NOT implanted, suggested or otherwise created by another person.Memory is very complex, but it is a scientific fact that memories can be implanted. This has been proven. It is much harder to scientifically prove "recovered memories" because you would need collaborating evidence of the event. This is what scientists are working on...A memory that comes out of the blue and then finding the evidence. This research will help with the recovered memory debate.
Posted by antigua3 on January 18, 2009, at 10:36:00
In reply to Re: FMS, posted by Looney Tunes on January 17, 2009, at 19:39:43
Memory is very complex, and more complex than perhaps either one of is suggesting.
I think that sometimes in FMS cases, "retrieved" memories are discounted as "implanted" memories. I think that's one point I was trying to make, but I wasn't very articulate.
I'm sure that cases of "implanted" memories by "bad" Ts can cause problems for families. There is probably no doubt about that, but separating out what is retrieved vs. implanted is a complex issue beyond my capabilities.
I just think that telling an abuse victim that they aren't to be believed because there isn't corroborating evidence causes real damage to those who are struggling to figure out what's going on with them. It makes it too easy to deny what happened, to not believe in ourselves.
So at the end of the day, as you suggest, many more things come into play as to whether I believe my memories are correct, if FMS is taken into consideration.
I just don't see it as so cut and dried. It's not a pure science, at least not yet, IMO. Work on memory is fascinating and there is so much that is still not known about how our mind and body store and retrieve memories.
I guess I have a problem w/differentiating between implanted vs. retrieved. Being told that the memories have in fact been implanted is extremely invalidating to someone who believes otherwise but has no corroborating evidence. Add in the fact that many abusers lie about what they did, it is easier to discount a memory because we're told told it's not true because there's no evidence.
Furthermore, I think the fear of being labeled as under the influence of FMS keeps people who are suffering from coming forward. That's important to me, too.
It's not easy to find out who the bad Ts are out there. Frankly, I've never run into one, but the "evidence" from FMS suggests that there are so many of them out there.
I don't know. I have to think about this more. It does upset me greatly, and given your response, I'm obviously not communicating my opinion very well.
Also, considering the source of the evolution of FMS only adds to my skepticism.
antigua
Posted by frida on January 18, 2009, at 12:55:36
In reply to FMS, posted by antigua3 on January 17, 2009, at 15:22:36
Dear antigua,
everything surrounding FMS also upsets me greatly. Mainly because I think that the number of people suffering in silence and finding yet one more reason not to tell or not to work through this, is so great...
I think that we who were abused when we were so little, have trouble believing in ourselves and that we're worth something, and that we're worth telling and being heard and believed...it took me years and years in T to be able to talk about the abuse and I haven't been able to share with my feelings...
The damage that abuse does to a person is just so huge..
I understand the claims that some people make but I think that we should concentrate our efforts in helping those people who feel ashamed and suffer in silence..so they don't suffer alone for years even after the abuse has ended.In the past whenever I read about FMS I used to feel so scared that I would be left to suffer alone, and other people too. It's already hard for me to admit to myself what has happened.
My T tells me that it's one of the hardest issues in our T. I just can't admit to myself the things that have happened. Sometimes it's easier to trick myself and tell myself that it wasn't that bad or that maybe I can pretend it never happened. But it did, and the consequences of it are all over the place.
I think the same happens to a lot of people, and I hate to think that reading about FMS may cause them to doubt themselves even more than we already do, and may cause them to choose not to tell and to hide this secret deep inside their minds...in a way that destroys them little by little. :-(It does happen that we block stuff from our minds and it takes time for them to come back to us, if they do. As you, there were things that happened that I didn't even remember and suddenly they came to me and at first i didn't even believe they were wrong...until my adult self could see it.
memories came to me slowly, and sometimes it's like i have pieces of a puzzle...but the rest is all in my body and heart. My truth is there.Thank you for sharing this.
I wanted to let you know I understand .
Love and safety,
Frida
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 12:41:17
In reply to Re: FMS » antigua3, posted by frida on January 18, 2009, at 12:55:36
My ignorance is showing what does FMS stand for? Thanks and love Phillipa
Posted by antigua3 on January 19, 2009, at 17:10:44
In reply to Re: FMS, posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 12:41:17
False Memory Syndrome
antigua
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 21:23:43
In reply to Re: FMS » Phillipa, posted by antigua3 on January 19, 2009, at 17:10:44
Antigua thanks. Love Phillipa
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