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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 63. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2014, at 18:00:44
It feels odd. I'm not sure what there is to say.
At least he seems to understand how I felt about the interim therapist, whose office he will be sharing...
Posted by Twinleaf on June 21, 2014, at 19:12:50
In reply to I see him Monday, posted by Dinah on June 21, 2014, at 18:00:44
I'm so glad you are seeing him, Dinah, and do hope you have a really good experience with him. Thanks for letting us know!
Posted by baseball55 on June 21, 2014, at 20:26:00
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by Twinleaf on June 21, 2014, at 19:12:50
Wow! Good to hear from you Dinah. It's been a while. Let us know how the visit goes.
Posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2014, at 22:53:37
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by baseball55 on June 21, 2014, at 20:26:00
Congrats I hope. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on June 22, 2014, at 0:00:49
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2014, at 22:53:37
well, this gave me a smile...
maybe because i'm imagining him as a sheepish todder. heh.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2014, at 14:31:14
In reply to I see him Monday, posted by Dinah on June 21, 2014, at 18:00:44
Thanks guys.
I wish I were as optimistic about it. I discover to my surprise that there is a limit to my stupidity, and even a devoted sheepdog can be chased away.
He's hurt me badly this time, by his own choice or not. And he's hurt me in lesser ways before. I don't intend to put myself in the way of being hurt again by him.
I used to think I could trust him to at least be himself. But I can't. I am not angry with him. I am glad he's feeling well again. I hope to be able to contact him when there's something I need to discuss with someone objective. But trust him again... I don't think I wish to do that. Ever.
Posted by 10derheart on June 22, 2014, at 20:16:55
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2014, at 14:31:14
I get it. As you know.
Weird, I was just about to post and ask you if you'd heard anything.
Did he call again himself to make an appointment? If you want to say.... I am curious. And a little envious.
But...It's bound to feel weird. Probably good but weird. Relief but disappointed anger, too. I hate all that. I really do. For me, living without that is better. But we needed our t's for different reasons, though.
I hope he doesn't make things worse by saying something god-awful. I may have to find Poet and we'll slap him together if he does. He's just not allowed to come back if he can't be fully....IDK...decent and present and notstupid.
I feel happy but cautious for you.
Posted by Poet on June 23, 2014, at 13:16:55
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2014, at 14:31:14
Hi Dinah,
I think trust has to be earned. Let us know how it went.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:21:21
In reply to Re: I see him Monday » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on June 22, 2014, at 20:16:55
And yes, he called himself to make the appointment.
I suppose it went as well as expected. About as well as it went in any of the many dreams about this day that I've had in the last two months.
We started with a hug, and I told him how very glad I was that he was doing well.
He said that he was not functioning well when he left the voicemail message and sent the email. That he had only had a few minutes to contact his clients, and there were quite a few of them at the time, and the email he sent me was the one he sent all his many clients. He said that he had told referred therapist that he had one client he was particularly worried about, who had seen him for many years and would be very upset. But that he gave no instructions as to telling me what was going on. He said he did the best he could do at that time.
I told him I appreciated referred therapist telling me he wasn't dying, since life threatening was the first thing most people thought when they heard his email. But that I really didn't understand why she had called me, told me she was authorized to tell me more, only to tell me that all the additional information she could share was that she didn't think he was coming back. He said he wasn't sure why she stated it so positively, but that at the time there was a question of whether he'd be returning to the area.
I asked him why she would have made such a point of trying to force me to recognize that he had abandoned me. That if it was her abandoned like that by someone seen as a surrogate mother, she'd want to dig a hole and curl up and die. He looked to the ceiling and sighed before saying she was probably trying to empathize with me. And pointed out that, regardless of the fact that he hadn't intended to, he had actually abandoned me. He assured me, when I asked, that he wouldn't have used the same approach. Ah my dear therapist. He knows I detest the unvarnished truth, and prefer my truths polished, varnished, and beveled to a pleasing shape. Truths can be transmitted without bludgeoning.
He reminded me that I was the only client he had called six weeks later, to explain what was going on. I told him I really appreciated that. That it had let me sleep well again, and stopped my obsessive searching of the internet for news of him. I asked him if he'd have called if I hadn't asked about the fate of my client records, or if he hadn't decided to return to the area. He said absolutely he would have. But then, he would say that wouldn't he? And probably believes it whether or not it's actually true. I suppose I'll believe him more than not.
He said that he'd be working at referred therapist's office from here on out. That it hadn't been good for him to work alone. I pointed out rather dryly that it hadn't been all that good for his clients either.
I did tell him that I didn't think I'd have so totally forgotten my responsibility to someone whose dependency I had not discouraged in many years. I was nice enough not to say "encouraged".
He said that he was doing his best, and that at the time he felt like he had to take care of himself.
It was important to me to let him know what had happened to me when he disappeared. That I hadn't eaten for days or worked at all for weeks, and not well for far longer. That had it happened earlier in therapy I had had a plan to kill myself, so I was glad it didn't. I wanted him to know that I had woken up crying at night until he called six weeks later.
He said that he had hoped I would forgive him, and trust him again so that we could continue therapy. I told him I didn't need to forgive him because I was never really angry with him (or only briefly in place of fear). That I had always known that it was something catastrophic because he had always liked money far too well (or been afraid of lack of it) to casually shut his doors. He didn't even like going on vacations for fear of losing income. I told him I loved him, that I would always love him. That I was so sorry this happened to him, and was so glad he's doing better. But that now I understood my place in his life, I didn't think it was wise of me to trust him again or to become dependent on him again. That I would like to be able to call him when I needed to talk something over with a therapist. That I didn't want any other therapist - that I didn't much like most other therapists and I did like him very much. But that I didn't consider it wise to re-enter regular therapy with him. He told me that he would always squeeze me in if I called either him or the secretary.
He did seem a bit upset, and I *certainly* didn't want to upset him. I apologized for burdening him with him all this, and he said he had understood that this would hurt me most of all his clients. By which I suppose he meant he knew what was coming when he scheduled me. At the end he said he was sorry this happened, and that he was sorry that it happening had hurt me. He must have seen a somewhat cynical look, because he amended that to say he was sorry that his actions, and especially his lack of actions, had hurt me. That he hadn't intended it, but that he understood it had.
Then I asked him who to make the check out to and left a bit early.
I didn't bother to mention the fact that he had allowed his wife to read his emails while he was out.
It went more or less like the many dreams I've had since he called, where I desperately tried to find a way to make everything ok again, and ended up waking with regret and melancholy.
Nothing really to feel envious about.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:29:50
In reply to Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:21:21
I think my post makes it sound more confrontational than it felt, to me at least.
I emphasized many times that I loved him dearly, didn't want to terminate with him, and was very much distressed that he had had to go through what he went through. We hugged at beginning and end. I cried throughout but didn't sob and didn't refuse to tell him what I was thinking. I never raised my voice or spoke with angry overtones. I think I sounded as sad and resolute as I felt.
I think he might have been upset or sad. But in words he validated my feelings entirely while not quite acknowledging any fault in himself.
I just needed information about things I had surmised, and I needed him to understand the depth of my pain. Even while I acknowledged that it mostly came from my thinking he cared for me more than he actually did.
I suppose my mild challenging of his passive voice was the closest I came to confrontation, and I wouldn't even call that confrontational. More of a reminder about taking responsibility properly.
It was eerily like my dreams. Sad, with lots of caring - probably even on his side.
I believe he cares. Just not enough.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:32:30
In reply to Re: I see him Monday, posted by Poet on June 23, 2014, at 13:16:55
True enough.
There was no way it could have gone particularly well.
The only possibility would be if he had told the referred therapist to let me know what was going on and to reassure me he would contact me when he could.
But he didn't. He just said there was client he was most worried about. Not the same thing at all.
Even with the best will in the world, that really can't be gotten past.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:58:00
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:29:50
To be fair, he also admitted that he had felt embarrassed and ashamed for abandoning his clients, and really didn't know at the time *what* was best to say or do.
I had already guessed that that might be part of the reason for how his email was worded.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 15:11:04
In reply to Re: I see him Monday » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on June 22, 2014, at 20:16:55
For whatever it's worth, I think our situations are more alike than different.
I think your therapist *did* care. But not as much as you needed. Not as much as you cared.
Posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2014, at 21:04:13
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:58:00
Do you feel due to finances he had to team up with another therapist to be able to stay in business? He wasn't sick or he was? Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 21:48:34
In reply to Re: Saw him » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2014, at 21:04:13
I don't know, Phillipa. I didn't ask him about his finances. I didn't feel it proper to ask any personal questions that didn't have a direct bearing on what happened to me. His stated reason was that working alone wasn't good for him. I accepted that at face value.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 23, 2014, at 22:29:28
In reply to Re: Saw him » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 21:48:34
maybe... time.
i think... people often don't handle things the best when things are turning to sh*t. sounds like he did the best he could at the time... but it turned out not to be good enough...
i'm glad that the meeting with him went pretty well. that you were able to express your hurt to him. that he seems to be... back? with respect to... being level headed. knowing you... knowing something about what you need from him right now.
do you really think it is just about the money? i bet he's had other clients who he could have... manoeuvred (so to speak) just as much money out of... if he'd have dedicated himself to that... and also... when one gets... hungry, cranky, lonely, tired, whatever... only a psychopath could feign true interest and patience and things like that... so persistently over so many years. and probably not even hollywood versions of them, truth be told.
i remember how hurt and upset i was with my t when i got back from the US... i... empathise with your feeling.
Posted by Poet on June 24, 2014, at 9:36:02
In reply to Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2014, at 13:21:21
Hi Dinah,
<< He did seem a bit upset, and I *certainly* didn't want to upset him. I apologized for burdening him with him all this, and he said he had understood that this would hurt me most of all his clients.
It seems to me that he isn't ready to see clients yet. He admits that what he hurt you more than his other clients, yet you end up being the one to apologize. I guess it did go as well as to be expected and I congratulate you on staying strong regarding not seeing him regularly anymore.
I get that he needed to take care of himself, I just wish he'd handled it better especially with the referral therapist who is now his associate.
I think you're very wise to proceed with caution.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2014, at 18:19:52
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by alexandra_k on June 23, 2014, at 22:29:28
I don't know that it was *just* money. But he is rather attached to it. I don't intend that as an insult. I daresay the financial stability of a therapist in private practice isn't huge. No benefits. You don't get paid unless you work. Therapy isn't reimbursed at particularly high rates. Etc. A preoccupation with money could naturally arise from that.
I'll admit to feeling anxious and unstable since I saw him yesterday. But I daresay that will pass as the more intense anxiety passed eventually (once the worst of the fear and uncertainty were removed by his calling). I can't imagine that there is time enough in this world for me to ever place myself in his hands again as a regular therapy client. I shrink from the very thought. Put myself through that again? I think not.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2014, at 18:40:11
In reply to Re: Saw him » Dinah, posted by Poet on June 24, 2014, at 9:36:02
> I get that he needed to take care of himself, I just wish he'd handled it better especially with the referral therapist who is now his associate.
Exactly.
> I think you're very wise to proceed with caution.Especially since he didn't seem to think he'd done anything wrong. He likely blames me for not understanding the terrible pain he was in, and not appreciating that he did the best he could for me. Not that he even hinted as much, of course! But if his only response is that he did the best he could do, he is not likely to do anything different if another crisis came along.
What in that is there to trust?
I do suspect he's not quite as well yet as he needs to be. I hope he takes care of himself and reenters the work force at a pace that is comfortable for him. Both for his sake and for the sake of his clients. If he does, I'm sure he'll be perfectly fine for the sort of short term cbt type therapy he usually does.
I like him, I care for him, my feelings for him really haven't changed. But I don't trust him and I don't see how I can when my safety in his hands depends on events beyond my knowledge and control. I always knew he handled stress and crisis badly. But he never handled it in such a hurtful way before. Now I know he's capable of doing that, how could I ever trust even minimally?
Not to mention that the stability he brought to my life was in large part based on my feelings of trust and safety. How helpful could he actually be to me if those feelings are gone? He would be more likely be a source of agitation and insecurity. I went through that all with him and came out on the other side, only to discover the spurious nature of that hard won security. I'm not of a mind to even try to fight again, only to reach an illusion.
And I don't think I'd feel at all comfortable hurting him by even saying those things to him so bluntly.
Posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
In reply to Re: Saw him » Poet, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2014, at 18:40:11
You never said what the issue was that caused him to disappear. As a result, there's a kind of shadowbox quality to reading about this. You are: angry? hurt? distrustful? cautious? self-protective?
But I don't quite understand your response. If he was deathly ill, then why would you feel distrustful? Except in the general sense of realizing that nobody will be with us forever, unconditionally.
If it was something else, what was it? You never said and I find it hard to respond to you without an understanding of what happened.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:35:05
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
I don't feel particularly comfortable revealing the part of this that doesn't concern me. I've probably said too much as it is, but I've always been honest here about what happened between us.
All I can say was that if he cared at all, his caring made no provision for me whatsoever. Maybe you think that's an unreasonable expectation. Perhaps it is. Perhaps it depends a lot on what you think being a therapist means. But given the things he's said over the years about trust and never abandoning me and seeing me when we both need our canes to hobble to wherever it is we meet and promising that no matter what we'd work something out, and given the fact that he encouraged me to continue to see him twice a week even when I tentatively suggested that I should cut back because he thought I needed him, and given the fact that he has said he sees therapy as a sacred responsibility, I can't quite see how he felt so little responsibility for me.
In his position I'd have been racked by guilt. I couldn't have "put myself first" until I was sure that those who relied on me were adequately taken care of. I wouldn't have waited six weeks to contact someone I knew would be distraught at an email message that even he admits was one that would make people think he was dying. I wouldn't have waited six weeks to release that person from agony. It would have been my first, second, and third thought and I would never have been able to adequately concentrate on myself with that on my conscience. I'm not saying he *should* have felt that way. But I am saying that I don't quite understand the thinking of someone who doesn't feel that way. It's too far out of my realm of understanding, and my understanding of the people I know best in life.
My therapist always did think I had an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And I always strongly suspected that he had an underdeveloped one. And loved him anyway.
For twenty years I spent two hours a week with him. And in that time I've stood by him at times when he wasn't a particularly good therapist. I stood by him when he fell asleep during our sessions for months or years at a time. I not uncommonly gave him support when he needed it. And never begrudged it, because he wasn't just a service provider. He was someone who provided a service to me, but with whom I had built up a relationship that was more than service provision. Or thought I had. I acted as if I had, and he acted as if I had. It was a professional relationship but not an impersonal relationship.
Was he capable of doing better at that particular moment? I don't know. Was he capable of doing better before six weeks? I'm reasonably sure that if I were a priority for him, he could have done *something* more.
Am I angry? I don't detect any feelings of anger in me, though it may sound like it because I've faced some difficult facts with a somewhat cynical attitude. I'm accepting of my place in his life and his heart. I accept that he is what he is. Does he care? Sure, within limits that aren't really what I need from him.
Am I hurt? Probably there is hurt in that acceptance. Certainly there is pain.
Am I distrustful? Do I trust that his caring is deep enough to go out of his way to try to avoid causing pain to me? Do I trust that his caring won't cause me pain over and over again? No. I don't. How on earth could I? I suppose I trust that he will continue to think of himself first and me a metaphorical or literal six weeks later. I trust that because that's what he did. Am I to trust his words or his actions?
Cautious? Absolutely.
Self protective? Yes, and I'm damn proud of that. I'd be pretty pathetic if I went crawling back to him and accepted what it is he has to offer. If I'd have put myself in the way of suffering whatever pain he causes me because I'm so happy to have him in my life.
Perhaps he never really cared. Or perhaps I "won" as much caring as he is capable of giving me as a client and as a person. And discovered, as is so often the case, the "winning" isn't worth the effort and pain.
Am I unreasonable? Maybe I am. But I need what I need, and he's not capable of giving it to me. Unreasonable of me or not, it is unwise of me to continue to put myself in the way of pain - even if that pain is caused by my unreasonable expectations.
Even if I'm the most selfish bitch in creation for not lovingly continuing this relationship that is causing me pain and has often caused me pain, I'm still not going to continue it. Maybe I need to think of myself first. Maybe I need to promise not to put my family through the angst of my collapse when he disappeared.
My therapist would be the first person to agree that sometimes people need to put themselves first.
If you don't understand, there is no real need for you to respond. I appreciate your good thoughts and desire to respond.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:40:42
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
And mind you, I would be a selfish, unreasonable bitch if I said those things to *him*. I'm not saying them to him. I'm saying them here.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:53:02
In reply to Re: Saw him » baseball55, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:35:05
I shouldn't have said "pathetic". Heaven knows that I understand it is more complicated than that. I don't mean to be insensitive to those who do return.
I suppose I said it because while I don't feel particular anger towards him, I feel a great deal of self shame and disgust. I feel like a damn idiot for thinking he could ever actually care about me. I feel like a damn fool for having one sided relationships that are all in my head. I feel fiscally irresponsible as well.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:12:39
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:53:02
> I feel like a damn idiot for thinking he could ever actually care about me. I feel like a damn fool for having one sided relationships that are all in my head. I feel fiscally irresponsible as well.
I suppose those delusions are something I could work on in therapy. But the simple truth is that I dislike most therapists. I dislike the "direct" Dr. Phil types. A society sanctioned cruelty. I dislike the mushy "caring nurturers". I dislike the psychobabble "empathy" and efforts to bond. There are more than a few idiots out there, including stupid bitch referred therapist. Who says "I'm happy to have the chance to meet you." to someone who only met you because their therapist disappeared off the face of the earth and is hysterical with grief over it?
My therapist may be irresponsible and may not care all that much about me. But at least he wouldn't say anything that asinine. He wouldn't mirror body postures or say things like "i guess you're feeling pretty upset" when you're sobbing hysterically. Or if he did, he'd laugh at himself and apologize. Maybe admit he'd fallen back on training because he wasn't really sure what to say. He wouldn't be a caring nurturer, and he wouldn't be rudely direct. He wasn't too hard or too soft. Maybe I even like him for his occasional stupidities and flaws. They made him approachable.
Women therapists are often critical of my lack of concern for my appearance. I wear what feels comfortable. I put my hair in pigtails or ponytails because it's cool. I don't wear makeup. I wear tennis shoes, and if I must be formal, ballerina flats. I've had everything from disapproving glances to open statements of disapproval.
Which is why if I need to see a therapist for some discrete task, it's going to be him. And it's not like I can work on my delusions with him. He'd just say I wasn't stupid and that he did love me as a therapy-daughter.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:14:00
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:12:39
He told me once that he had doubts about whether I could ever bond with another therapist. And that he wasn't sure how I managed to bond with him.
He does know me so well. And I'm not entirely sure either.
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