![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
In reply to Re: Saw him » Poet, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2014, at 18:40:11
You never said what the issue was that caused him to disappear. As a result, there's a kind of shadowbox quality to reading about this. You are: angry? hurt? distrustful? cautious? self-protective?
But I don't quite understand your response. If he was deathly ill, then why would you feel distrustful? Except in the general sense of realizing that nobody will be with us forever, unconditionally.
If it was something else, what was it? You never said and I find it hard to respond to you without an understanding of what happened.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:35:05
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
I don't feel particularly comfortable revealing the part of this that doesn't concern me. I've probably said too much as it is, but I've always been honest here about what happened between us.
All I can say was that if he cared at all, his caring made no provision for me whatsoever. Maybe you think that's an unreasonable expectation. Perhaps it is. Perhaps it depends a lot on what you think being a therapist means. But given the things he's said over the years about trust and never abandoning me and seeing me when we both need our canes to hobble to wherever it is we meet and promising that no matter what we'd work something out, and given the fact that he encouraged me to continue to see him twice a week even when I tentatively suggested that I should cut back because he thought I needed him, and given the fact that he has said he sees therapy as a sacred responsibility, I can't quite see how he felt so little responsibility for me.
In his position I'd have been racked by guilt. I couldn't have "put myself first" until I was sure that those who relied on me were adequately taken care of. I wouldn't have waited six weeks to contact someone I knew would be distraught at an email message that even he admits was one that would make people think he was dying. I wouldn't have waited six weeks to release that person from agony. It would have been my first, second, and third thought and I would never have been able to adequately concentrate on myself with that on my conscience. I'm not saying he *should* have felt that way. But I am saying that I don't quite understand the thinking of someone who doesn't feel that way. It's too far out of my realm of understanding, and my understanding of the people I know best in life.
My therapist always did think I had an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And I always strongly suspected that he had an underdeveloped one. And loved him anyway.
For twenty years I spent two hours a week with him. And in that time I've stood by him at times when he wasn't a particularly good therapist. I stood by him when he fell asleep during our sessions for months or years at a time. I not uncommonly gave him support when he needed it. And never begrudged it, because he wasn't just a service provider. He was someone who provided a service to me, but with whom I had built up a relationship that was more than service provision. Or thought I had. I acted as if I had, and he acted as if I had. It was a professional relationship but not an impersonal relationship.
Was he capable of doing better at that particular moment? I don't know. Was he capable of doing better before six weeks? I'm reasonably sure that if I were a priority for him, he could have done *something* more.
Am I angry? I don't detect any feelings of anger in me, though it may sound like it because I've faced some difficult facts with a somewhat cynical attitude. I'm accepting of my place in his life and his heart. I accept that he is what he is. Does he care? Sure, within limits that aren't really what I need from him.
Am I hurt? Probably there is hurt in that acceptance. Certainly there is pain.
Am I distrustful? Do I trust that his caring is deep enough to go out of his way to try to avoid causing pain to me? Do I trust that his caring won't cause me pain over and over again? No. I don't. How on earth could I? I suppose I trust that he will continue to think of himself first and me a metaphorical or literal six weeks later. I trust that because that's what he did. Am I to trust his words or his actions?
Cautious? Absolutely.
Self protective? Yes, and I'm damn proud of that. I'd be pretty pathetic if I went crawling back to him and accepted what it is he has to offer. If I'd have put myself in the way of suffering whatever pain he causes me because I'm so happy to have him in my life.
Perhaps he never really cared. Or perhaps I "won" as much caring as he is capable of giving me as a client and as a person. And discovered, as is so often the case, the "winning" isn't worth the effort and pain.
Am I unreasonable? Maybe I am. But I need what I need, and he's not capable of giving it to me. Unreasonable of me or not, it is unwise of me to continue to put myself in the way of pain - even if that pain is caused by my unreasonable expectations.
Even if I'm the most selfish bitch in creation for not lovingly continuing this relationship that is causing me pain and has often caused me pain, I'm still not going to continue it. Maybe I need to think of myself first. Maybe I need to promise not to put my family through the angst of my collapse when he disappeared.
My therapist would be the first person to agree that sometimes people need to put themselves first.
If you don't understand, there is no real need for you to respond. I appreciate your good thoughts and desire to respond.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:40:42
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by baseball55 on June 24, 2014, at 20:52:41
And mind you, I would be a selfish, unreasonable bitch if I said those things to *him*. I'm not saying them to him. I'm saying them here.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:53:02
In reply to Re: Saw him » baseball55, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:35:05
I shouldn't have said "pathetic". Heaven knows that I understand it is more complicated than that. I don't mean to be insensitive to those who do return.
I suppose I said it because while I don't feel particular anger towards him, I feel a great deal of self shame and disgust. I feel like a damn idiot for thinking he could ever actually care about me. I feel like a damn fool for having one sided relationships that are all in my head. I feel fiscally irresponsible as well.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:12:39
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:53:02
> I feel like a damn idiot for thinking he could ever actually care about me. I feel like a damn fool for having one sided relationships that are all in my head. I feel fiscally irresponsible as well.
I suppose those delusions are something I could work on in therapy. But the simple truth is that I dislike most therapists. I dislike the "direct" Dr. Phil types. A society sanctioned cruelty. I dislike the mushy "caring nurturers". I dislike the psychobabble "empathy" and efforts to bond. There are more than a few idiots out there, including stupid bitch referred therapist. Who says "I'm happy to have the chance to meet you." to someone who only met you because their therapist disappeared off the face of the earth and is hysterical with grief over it?
My therapist may be irresponsible and may not care all that much about me. But at least he wouldn't say anything that asinine. He wouldn't mirror body postures or say things like "i guess you're feeling pretty upset" when you're sobbing hysterically. Or if he did, he'd laugh at himself and apologize. Maybe admit he'd fallen back on training because he wasn't really sure what to say. He wouldn't be a caring nurturer, and he wouldn't be rudely direct. He wasn't too hard or too soft. Maybe I even like him for his occasional stupidities and flaws. They made him approachable.
Women therapists are often critical of my lack of concern for my appearance. I wear what feels comfortable. I put my hair in pigtails or ponytails because it's cool. I don't wear makeup. I wear tennis shoes, and if I must be formal, ballerina flats. I've had everything from disapproving glances to open statements of disapproval.
Which is why if I need to see a therapist for some discrete task, it's going to be him. And it's not like I can work on my delusions with him. He'd just say I wasn't stupid and that he did love me as a therapy-daughter.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:14:00
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:12:39
He told me once that he had doubts about whether I could ever bond with another therapist. And that he wasn't sure how I managed to bond with him.
He does know me so well. And I'm not entirely sure either.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:19:56
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:12:39
However, just this one more.
I don't need to work on my delusions because it's not likely to come up again in my life. I'm old, and by the time this lesson is forgotten it won't really matter. In the meantime, I'm not terribly likely to try to build a relationship with anyone. I'm back to being an emotional hermit. It's far, far safer that way.
Posted by 10derheart on June 25, 2014, at 12:51:22
In reply to Sorry Dr. Bob for more than 3 posts, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 9:19:56
Make three more if you like. Or 30. Given enough time, I'll be glad to post back to you as I can.
I doubt Dr. Bob is paying attention to that aspect. He's far too busy making less and less sense, discussing people who aren't there to defend themselves, and otherwise falling all over one poor, anxious poster over on Admin. Ah, but I digress.
You explain it beautifully. I learn a lot from your posts.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 13:24:50
In reply to Re: Sorry Dr. Bob for more than 3 posts » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on June 25, 2014, at 12:51:22
Thanks, 10der. I knew you'd understand how a therapist can offer more, hopefully in good faith, than they can deliver on.
My husband and I have a long standing joke, probably based the Odd Couple. If I say "I did my best" he responds "I know you did, Dinah. That's what so tragic."
Well, I believe both our therapists did their best...
I've seen what is happening on Admin. But I really can't allow myself to post without running the risk of not living up to my own standards. I hate doing that.
What is, is. It's my choice whether to be here or not. That's the only power I have. Mostly I've chosen not to be. But I thought it only fair, since I brought up the beginning of the end and received a lot of help here, to finish the story.
Posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2014, at 20:29:56
In reply to Re: Sorry Dr. Bob for more than 3 posts » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 13:24:50
I'm glad you have seen him again and glad you feel a bit better. Phillipa
Posted by baseball55 on June 25, 2014, at 20:34:15
In reply to Re: Saw him » baseball55, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 8:35:05
> If you don't understand, there is no real need for you to respond. I appreciate your good thoughts and desire to respond.
I guess I just feel like there's this crucial piece of information missing for me - namely, why he disappeared. I take it that it was not because he was ill or otherwise incapacitated.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:14:32
In reply to Re: Sorry Dr. Bob for more than 3 posts » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2014, at 20:29:56
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:27:16
In reply to Re: Saw him, posted by baseball55 on June 25, 2014, at 20:34:15
He was on legitimate medical leave. If you think that means he had no responsibility to do more than he did under those circumstances, then consider me completely unreasonable in my expectations. I'm perfectly happy for you to think so. I won't even deny it.
It doesn't make any difference whether my expectations were reasonable and he failed me or my expectations were unreasonable. I can never again feel safe with him in ongoing therapy for fear this will happen again, and in the same way. At this point in my therapy, it is critical for me to feel safe with him. Therefore, continuing therapy with him would be a total waste of time and money, and quite destabilizing for me.
It may not be your choice if you were in a similar situation. It may not be your reaction in a similar situation. But it's mine, and I'm not going to continue therapy under these conditions just because someone else might choose to do so.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 22:33:29
In reply to Thanks, Phillipa (nm), posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:14:32
so... i feel a little like baseball... i feel... like i would feel different. i would feel hurt and betrayed and stuff... but with the world more generally, rather than with him in particular. but maybe... that would be too much. so... it's easier to feel that way about him in particular? or something... i don't know.
sometimes i feel like you have an alien psychology to me. i only say this because... mostly i feel like you are one of the very very few people in the world who understands me so well. and because a place like babble... one of the most wonderful things about it (for me) was that i felt like i could always be genuine about what i did and at times what i did not identify with. because there were OTHER people and there was ALWAYS a few who could. so i didn't ever feel like i had to... sort of... pretend to... when i didn't.
some of the times i think i've learned the most on babble... have been times when i really didn't feel that i understood where you were coming from at all. and you were good enough to put considerable time and effort into trying to explain to me or bob or whomever... and i think i came to understand a bit more. not perfectly, but a bit more. things like... therapists and washing machines... about particular vs role... stuff about choral colonies... small groups... inclusion exclusion... so much...
i empathise with feeling... hurt and let down. really very. meltdown... i get that. what happened with my t once i got back to australia... i can empathise with your feeling like things are irreperable. i understand your feeling... but i guess i don't really see how this prompted it. or something. i don't quite feel like i'm following along.
with respect to the privacy / confidentiality thing... i think that insofar as it affects you and is something that you are processing... i would think that you could disclose it. but perhaps not. i understand you feeling that it is not your place to talk about him... but this is about how something about him is affecting you. how you are dealing with it... anyway... i don't entirely know what i'm saying.
i'm glad you are here.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:56:50
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 22:33:29
I've explained it as well as I could. Those who understand, if anyone does, will understand. Those who don't understand just will have to not understand because I can't make my thoughts any clearer than I already have. And I feel guilty enough about saying as much as I have about *his* circumstances. I am not going to say more.
I'm not really asking for advice. I just thought people might like to know how things ended.
They know now.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 23:44:35
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:56:50
i understand bits, i think. but maybe not other bits.
i am hoping that time will help. will help with the feeling, i mean. i know that to start with it really doesn't feel like that. i'm remembering back in my own life... back to when i got back from the us... and i felt like my t had really dropped me. and i felt like there was no way that i could ever forget that or forgive him for having done that... i think that maybe that is a little like how you are feeling now?
time did help. it didn't fix it. ever. but i did end up with working with him again... things were never the same. i didn't feel i could trust him.
but then i never felt like i could trust him before, either. so. i ... uh... don't know what to say.
i guess i'm .. well.. i thought this might not be the end. that in time... you might choose to see him again. even if it is about processing this... for however long it takes.
but i don't know.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 23:44:35
It's not the end of seeing him ever. If I have something specific to process I'll see him.
What I won't do is see him week in and week out, never knowing when the other shoe will drop. When he will again do exactly the same thing he did this time and hurt me horribly again.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. Therapist caused me incredible pain. I don't like pain. I know therapist could very well cause me that sort of pain again. Therapist doesn't even pretend that he would do anything differently. I don't want to be hurt again so I don't want to see therapist on a regular basis again. In fact, it may be some time before I can see him for a single session. I think therapist, I think pain. Simple aversion psychology. Even my dog exhibits it with the oven timer.
Perhaps some people could just accept that from time to time incredible pain will happen. Or accept that at any time he could just abandon me with barely a mass email and no real explanation at all. And just enjoy the time we have together. But I can't. I wouldn't enjoy the time together.
And I certainly am not going to *pay* for the possibility of suffering incredible pain and the certainty of constantly being vigilant and afraid that something will happen and I won't know when, where or why.
How can time affect that? Twenty years of building a relationship didn't stop it from occurring. A few more years of him being around without abandoning me won't keep me from being aware it could happen at any moment.
Is that really hard to understand?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:27:10
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
I'm even repelled by his new office. I associate it with pain and hysterics and stupid bitch referred therapist luring me there under false pretenses. More aversion training.
I dislike her intensely, and I even dislike the other therapists I've only seen but not yet met. I guess the whole feeling of aversion has rubbed off on them. My skin crawls at the idea of seeing them and being in that office.
Office = stupid bitch referred therapist = pain
Therapist = pain
Dinah ~ avoid pain
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
i understand wanting to avoid pain. and i understand... shying away from a person who has caused pain.
i guess... i'm a bit hung up on the attribution. maybe this is what baseball is wondering too, i don't know.
i hear that he WAS concerned about you. traditional therapists... wouldn't have told you anything at all. wouldn't have told you where they went or why they went. certainly wouldn't have told you anything at all to the effect that they cared about you most-est, or whatever.
and of course i wouldn't last 5 minutes with a traditional therapist. i'd be a psychotic mess... i'd almost certainly punch them. one or two, or five or six times... or whatever. so... no arguments from me on that one, at all...
but he's not one to make up stories - yeah? and he told you... that he was concerned about you *in particular*. that in his distressed moment he was aware that he *didn't know what to do about you* he *didn't know what was appropriate for him to do*. he has decided that he should disclose this stuff to you (later). many therapists would advise him not to do this...
he... probably needed to take their advise. they didn't know you from a barge pole. they needed to decide whether it was more likely that he was right - that you needed something significantly different from the traditional line... clearly that bitch woman you talked to *did not get it at all*. my experience is that most mental health workers are cut from that very cloth. but, uh, what was he to do?
under the circumstances, what was he to do?
i guess i feel that, very strongly. while also feeling... how i felt when my therapist promised he'd email me a couple times after his wife had a baby (when it took a month off) and he didn't email me for three and a half weeks... and i got to thinking that his wife died or the baby died or both. or the baby was very sick or his wife was very sick. or the baby was horribly deformed or... and then it turned out he'd just been, uh, just the regular kind of 'busy'... so feeling... dropped. which isn't forgivable. only under the circumstances... understandable. but hurt me.
maybe that is it... i don't see why you don't think that his actions were understandable - given the circumstances. hurtful, yes. let you down. etc. but... given the circumstances... i don't see why you can't think that he did the best he could...
that... that is good enough.
perhaps it isn't. i think klein goes into that. something something about reality being too much to bear. trying your best doesn't f*ck*ng fix it.
i don't know ...
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:00:55
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
maybe that is why i think about time.
they say the pains of childbirth would prevent women having another child. if we remembered them full force, i mean. but we forget with time... or at least... some do.
maybe some pains are like that?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:08:34
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
I'm willing to believe he did his best. Both to care about me and in this situation.
His best wasn't good enough.
And why should it matter? After twenty years is it so bad to quit? If I hadn't had my therapist disappear with barely any word sending me toppling into an abyss of pain, I was well on my way to cutting back anyway. And after he contacted me six weeks in and put me out of my misery of not knowing, I did well enough without him. Certainly better than I would do with him under current circumstances. Why must I continue to see him?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:16:15
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:00:55
Childbirth isn't quite the same. It doesn't exactly come out of the blue with no warning and no way to anticipate it. It doesn't bring the anxiety of being aware that it could happen again at any time with no warning whatsoever. And when it happens, there is no real uncertainty about what to expect.
Every single time I see him it will be with the knowledge that he might disappear before our next appointment, with no real explanation and no way for me to anticipate the likelihood.
Even if it never happened again, and it well might happen again, I would have to live with that anxiety every single day that I allow myself to care whether he is there or not. Time is just going to make it worse, not better. The constant anxiety and vigilance will end up leaving me with a phobia like my emetophobia. I will be terrified of meeting with my therapist. He will be the reason I am in need of therapy.
Why on earth would I do that to myself?
Why do you care if I quit therapy?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:17:21
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:08:34
i guess i get to thinking of those epic failure clips... Olympic athletes or whatever... pole vault... the leap... and it is beautiful. body stretched right out... nearly nearly nearly... no. those disappointment shots. the failures.
and there is this thing about 'better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all'. and there is beauty. in the aspiration. in the attempt. something... about someone having the courage to give it their all and then fail. because it is a really f*ck*ng hard thing to do. mostly people (mostly me) is too afraid of failure to give myself permission even to try...
and disappointment hurts.
and it can be terrifying to face limits sometimes, i think. the true limits of 'i can't'. 'i did my best and i can't'.
but i guess i focus on the 'tried'. i don't know...
with respect to continuing to see him... i would think... precisely because of the current circumstances. do you really want things to end like this?
it is hard, though. i don't know. now i'm thinking about my dad. died. useless sack of sh*t. just curled up and died, basically. useless.
people really are abandoning a-holes.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:17:21
You think I didn't try? Have you put twenty years into working and fighting towards a relationship? Not tried?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT TRIED??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one, including him, has tried harder than I have. And I won the prize. He openly says he cares about me like a therapy daughter. He says that he has never had another relationship (based on twenty years of hard work) with a client like he has with me, and never expects to have another. After all, the likelihood of someone else starting with him now putting in twenty years is not huge, especially not someone willing to get past what I've gotten past with him, and surviving a catastrophe the way I survived Katrina with him. Why, he cared about me 8 weeks more than he cared about any other client.
I just don't find the prize is worth the cost of trying. Twenty years of working and fighting towards relationship and he disappears leaving me the same f*ck*ng impersonal email that he left every other one of his many many clients. He leaves me in incredible pain for six f*ck*ng weeks. I suppose that his other clients didn't get any relief after those six weeks were up. But then his other clients likely didn't feel the pain of having their therapist of twenty f*ck*ng years disappear on them. Because they had only known him for weeks, or possibly months. They hadn't put in the time and the effort and the tears and the pain. They didn't get the six week call like I did, but then they didn't have to suffer the pain involved in a long term relationship ending like that either.
I'm not "giving up". Giving up implies that I am working towards something. I already achieved the best I could ever achieve. There is nothing more out there for me to work for. I got hold of the gold ring of therapy clients. Aren't I the lucky one.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:36:26
In reply to You don't get it. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
Brass ring. I'm pretty sure the metaphor involves a brass ring.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.