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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64Bowtie on May 18, 2013, at 4:53:03
My dear <<<Dinah>>>,
<<< People tend to [AVOID] what hurts, and that may be feelings that come from the interaction or feelings that come from guilt at previous [AVOIDANCE] or whatever. It's hard to tell.<<<
>>> I'm just now struggling with the "innards" of this topic, [AVOIDANCE], ergo, witty little lead in, "Avoid Avoidance"... On the one hand, following the dictates of our parents for about the first eight years of life can keep us from getting squashed by the random stuff the Universe throws at us... This is less to do with being good and obedient, and more to do about nurturing our assembly of library or encyclopeadia of things to watch out for, that can cause harm... What comes to mind is, "Never forget to look both ways when crossing a busy street", thereby avoiding time wasted by being hospitalized; needless to say our lives are often saved by this simple invocation...
About the time we reach 40 years, we usually have settled for the simpler life chock full of the several versions of this phrase and others... At about age 15, we start claiming our unique and distinct territory for ourselves... Along with this comes the enormous force of responsibility, and with it, choices to make...
Yes, intrinsic to responsibility and choices is a strong sense of right V.S. wrong, in order to be successful... Many of us make the simple leap into "f*rt" logic, such as, "Well, if [TOPIC] is good enough for me, then everyone should [AVOID] this or that person, place, thing, or idea... That posture has served me well; also from here on out"...
Somethings work better after practicing limiting [AVOIDANCE]... We must study limits while generalizing and incorporating some of the myriad rules to live by, or we fail in a dust cloud of over-activity...
This is like a "Movie Trailer" version of what I am writing about concerning [AVOIDANCE]... I may split the topic into 2 chapters... Wait and see what works...
I am so grateful to you for trusting me back in 2003... I had just submitted my final rewrite of my thesis to be published, so I was toooo arrogant to listen well... So, thank you again, Sweetie... Have you reconsidered what I had suggested was your destiny??? You are one of my favorites at communications... I still think you make a good therapist; a "T" person... Keep up the good work!!! >>>
Rod
Posted by 64Bowtie on May 20, 2013, at 6:19:57
In reply to Avoid Avoidance, posted by 64Bowtie on May 18, 2013, at 4:53:03
P.S.:
When we do get older and dare to retire, we start losing our acquaintances, friends and family, spouses and bosom buddies; starting to feel like 1 or 2 per month, these days... [AVOIDANCE] tends to eliminate intimacy of the new folks that filter into our lives... I, for 1, can't afford to lose toooo many more of my "Favorite Folks"; other wise you may find me [BABBLING] to myself sitting in a corner, finally with a faithful audience, me/myself... [AVOIDANCE] of the unknown is the curse of older folks, toooo stubborn to study and update rules of childhood with optional thinking as an adult...Rod
Posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 6:49:11
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.:, posted by 64Bowtie on May 20, 2013, at 6:19:57
Hi Rod.
Thanks for the perspective. I will try to remember it.
Severe depression with social anxiety can produce complete avoidance and isolation. It has with me. I don't know how one can be any other way with this illness. Gratefully, I am experience a partial response to drug treatment. I have been able to get out some, but still seem unable to establish new relationships. After 35 years, perhaps this is something I must learn how to do.
- Scott
> P.S.:
> When we do get older and dare to retire, we start losing our acquaintances, friends and family, spouses and bosom buddies; starting to feel like 1 or 2 per month, these days... [AVOIDANCE] tends to eliminate intimacy of the new folks that filter into our lives... I, for 1, can't afford to lose toooo many more of my "Favorite Folks"; other wise you may find me [BABBLING] to myself sitting in a corner, finally with a faithful audience, me/myself... [AVOIDANCE] of the unknown is the curse of older folks, toooo stubborn to study and update rules of childhood with optional thinking as an adult...
>
> Rod
Posted by Twinleaf on May 20, 2013, at 9:58:41
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » 64Bowtie, posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 6:49:11
I have struggled with these same two things, and can definitely empathize with what a heavy toll they can take. I have found psychotherapy invaluable in its experience of a healthy new relationship in which I feel safe and valued. This has made my social anxiety much less severe, and allowed me to form meaningful new relationships, and just feel generally more comfortable and outgoing. But I am never going to be Extrovert of the Year!
Would this be something you would consider now? The combination of medication and therapy might be extremely effective.
Posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 19:40:12
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on May 20, 2013, at 9:58:41
Hi Twinleaf.
Thanks for your input.
> I have struggled with these same two things, and can definitely empathize with what a heavy toll they can take. I have found psychotherapy invaluable in its experience of a healthy new relationship in which I feel safe and valued.
I would deem the person with whom you found a healthy relationship to be extremely fortunate.
:-)
(No smoke).
> This has made my social anxiety much less severe, and allowed me to form meaningful new relationships, and just feel generally more comfortable and outgoing. But I am never going to be Extrovert of the Year!
Was it the psychotherapy that afforded you this new comfort, or was it the relationships themselves? In other words, would psychotherapy alone have produced this reduction in anxiety without the formation of healthy relationships, or did the relationships act as a catalyst?
I know, I know. They are inextricably linked...
> Would this be something you would consider now? The combination of medication and therapy might be extremely effective.
I don't know. It depends upon whether or not the psychotherapy would be covered by Medicare. The idea appeals to me, though.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on May 20, 2013, at 22:32:55
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 19:40:12
This all does get murky! The peculiar relationship with the therapist, where you explore the areas one usually keeps hidden, and where you have opportunities for repeated little ruptures and repairs seems to have created a situation where I began to feel much more confident, and safer taking social risks; this led to a more active social life, and so on in a generally upward spiral. I can't say the changes were major, but they were enough to make me feel much happier and more satisfied.
My experience about Medicare is that the younger ones starting out usually accept it, but as their practices become established, they usually opt out and charge considerably more. Young therapists often have an advantage in dedication and enthusiasm which can translate into really good, healing relationships. If you do decide to explore doing it, I think it's very important to interview at least several people, and only decide on someone whom you feel enthusiastic about - the "good fit" is essential!
I hope you do consider it.
Posted by Twinleaf on May 21, 2013, at 9:53:27
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 19:40:12
Thanks for the sweet comment! I missed that on first reading. I think I've gone through every possible emotion with my therapist, including a huge share of negative ones. But yes, I do think for it to go well, they, also have to feel that the relationship is a meaningful one for them. I do have that feeling.
Posted by sigismund on May 21, 2013, at 17:33:16
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » 64Bowtie, posted by SLS on May 20, 2013, at 6:49:11
What is that line from Desiderata.......Beyond a wholesome firmness be gentle with yourself....something like that.
Posted by SLS on May 22, 2013, at 6:40:23
In reply to What helps... » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on May 20, 2013, at 22:32:55
> This all does get murky! The peculiar relationship with the therapist, where you explore the areas one usually keeps hidden, and where you have opportunities for repeated little ruptures and repairs seems to have created a situation where I began to feel much more confident, and safer taking social risks; this led to a more active social life, and so on in a generally upward spiral. I can't say the changes were major, but they were enough to make me feel much happier and more satisfied.
>
> My experience about Medicare is that the younger ones starting out usually accept it, but as their practices become established, they usually opt out and charge considerably more. Young therapists often have an advantage in dedication and enthusiasm which can translate into really good, healing relationships. If you do decide to explore doing it, I think it's very important to interview at least several people, and only decide on someone whom you feel enthusiastic about - the "good fit" is essential!
>
> I hope you do consider it.
I have considered going back to psychotherapeutic IPT and life-coaching. However, I don't feel that these things are very useful to me unless I am either very well or very sick. I am currently somewhere in between. When I am very sick, I need something to prevent me from committing suicide and helping to reduce my feelings of despair, helplessness, and hopelessness. When I am very well, I am much more able to process therapy and gain insights and functionality.Part of my reluctance to go back into therapy is that my last therapist required that I either go back to work or school as conditions of continued treatment. To satisfy her, I forced myself to get a job at an office supply store. I had to quit on the very first day because I was unable to read, learn, and remember sufficiently well to pass their computerized training program. This experience damaged me a great deal.
I don't think that it is a good time for me to seek another psychotherapist. I actually liked my last therapist, and covered a great many issues with her. It just doesn't feel right to me to return to therapy at this juncture. Money is an issue, too. Perhaps I'll feel differently tomorrow.
I am very grateful for your interest in me and your valuable input.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on May 22, 2013, at 8:11:39
In reply to Re: What helps... » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on May 22, 2013, at 6:40:23
That example you gave - the therapist requiring something of you that you knew you weren't yet ready to do - is a good example of the kinds of things that shouldn't happen in therapy, and which can set one's confidence back a lot. You need someone who trusts you on issues like that, and doesn't force her (his) views on you.
If it doesn't feel like the right thing to do now, then it isn't. It may (or may not) seem different later. I think you (and your psychiatrist) have been amazingly resourceful in coming up with a combination with medications which have helped you a lot. There is just that part left! In thinking of what might help further, H-coil deep TMS comes out at the top of my list.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on May 22, 2013, at 22:30:55
In reply to Avoid Avoidance, posted by 64Bowtie on May 18, 2013, at 4:53:03
64bowie
you just spelled exactly what I was thinking when I posted on facebook.....but I have an avoidance with people who avoid me....it works for me, its convient, there's no risk of getting devesated from rejection, it works perfect for me. Kinda like going up to someone who doesn't like me and talk to them, what will be the effect....they will avoid conversation and say PET awnsers like ... "you can do it" "yea that's good" just statements that have no source meaning...
but the amount of pain I've had from people not showing up to my parties, my birthday, the pain is so intense, I can't contain it....so personally for me, avoid things that cause pain that will trigger rejection trauma. It happens everyday you know....people get rejected a lot, but it shouldn't bother people, but it does....and it bothers me intensly. So to get away from those who hurt me, that's best plan.....
never be hurt again, and heal the wounds with my own spirit
r
Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 23, 2013, at 18:47:45
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.:, posted by sigismund on May 21, 2013, at 17:33:16
"Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should."
Love that poem,
"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons."
Posted by sigismund on June 23, 2013, at 18:03:35
In reply to Re: Avoid Avoidance --- P.S.: » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on May 23, 2013, at 18:47:45
> As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Interesting. I might have overdone surrender.
This is the end of the thread.
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