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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Hello,
I am having a very serious problem with depression. I have had two bouts of depression in the past 4 years, each of which was effectively treated by Effexor XR with only minor side effects (ringing in ears, sexual dysfunction).
The symptoms of my depression when it sets in have nothing to do with feelings of sadness or guilt, but I just feel extremely off/foggy, racing thoughts, anxiety and my sleep is not triggering at all.
About three days after a concert in August 2003, I simulatanously got ringing in my ears (tinnitus) that hasn't disappeared in 2 months and the exact feelings of depression I have had in the past started at around the same time a few days after the concert.
Over the past 2 months, I have tried 5HTP together with St. John's Wort, Wellbutrin by itself, Effexor by itself and Amitriptyline after that in that order, obviously not together. All have made the depression about 10 times worse except 5HTP which seemed to calm me, make me feel more balanced and helped with my sleep. (But I worry of it not being FDA approved)The other 3 (Effexor, Wellbutrin and Amitriptyline) seem to be having the opposite effect on my seretonin causing me to have more severe depression, anxiety, less able to fall asleep and a very deep almost non-functional depression where I am to the point where I might lose my management job. I start to feel better again when I stop taking them and they clear out of my system, but my brain balance does not go back to normal as my sleep is not triggering.
There was a point after taking the 5HTP and St. John's where my psych asked me to stop and clean out my system for a week before starting Amitriptyline (to possibly help with tinnitus and depression) where I felt almost fine, except my sleep was still not triggering and I still felt a little off.
I stopped taking the Amitriptyline three days ago and I am hoping I start to feel better, but right now it has really caused a serious deep depression and has me feeling terrible. When I stopped taking the Effexor (which also made me feel even worse, opposite effect than intended?) before that, I felt better after about a week, almost felt normal except my sleep was not triggering.
I know my body and I know I am giving these drugs time to act as I feel them starting to act, but they are just having the opposite affect making the depression worse.
I am now almost positive that the tinnitus is caused by noise damage and that is something I will have to live with. But the medications I have tried have all made me feel extremely, almost non-functionally bad, have created more anxiety, make my sleep worse, increase the tinnitus and seem to have another side affect on my ears and jaw.
When I took them (especially Effexor and Amitriptyline), my nose would run, my jaws would crack, my ears would pop and they would all make the tinnitus worse. It also made my hearing a lot more sensitive to noise and I could begin to hear tv's and computers ring. It is almost like the drugs were having an opposite affect on my seretonin causing it to be extremely depleted and make me feel terrible.
I am pretty sure this depression and past depressions have been caused by stress of a new job, or more likely using magic mushrooms twice, which I know manipulate seretonin levels have each time have caused depression days later after use. I am almost thinking it is probably the later (mushrooms). I have always thought mushrooms were harmless, but now I know they manipulate seretonin as I am evidence of that and it upsets me that everyone talks about them being harmless, which for most I am sure they are, but my brain's chemistry seems to be sensitive to them.
I didn't put the two together and probably made the worst decision of my life by trying them again, which is my fault. I have now sworn off all drug use and I am simutanously quitting smoking marijuana at this time as well, because it too is having an opposite effect of causing more anxiety when it has also worked as an anti-anxiety agent for me.
I am almost affraid to try anything else and have it make me feel as bad as these have. I am worried that any SSRI is going to make me feel terrible.
My question are these:
1) Has anyone ever heard of these medications making the depression much worse, when something like Effexor has worked for me in the past?
2) Is there a medication anyone can recommend that I try to help boost my seretonin that might not have these devasting affects as the medications I have tried?
3) How long does Amitriptlyine stay in your system? It has been 3 days and I still feel devastatingly depressed and anxious.
4) Should I try 5HTP again because it seemed to work with no side effects? Are there any brands that have proven to be less toxic or not having peak X?
5) Are there any medications similar to 5HTP that might work that are approved by the FDA?
6) Could traces of St. John's Wort in my body be causing any of these reactions when I take the prescribed Effexor or Amitriptyline?
7) Could the ringing in the ears and subsequent intolerance to Effexor and Amitriptlyine have anything to do with each other? (because of the fact when I take them my ears pop, jaw cracks, hearing sensitivity increases)
8) Is this some kind of seretonin toxicity that won't allow me to take to Effexor? It almost seems like the Effexor and Amitriptyline are making the seretonin problems much worse.
I know this was long, but I very much appreciate any feedback on any of these questions as it is almost the point of being debilitating. My psychiatrist is at a loss for words of why Effexor worked at one point years ago, and now it is having the opposite effect.
Thank you very much,
John
Posted by Susan J on October 1, 2003, at 14:27:41
In reply to Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Hi, I haven't used all the SSRIs you've talked about by I have experience with Paxil, which made my depression different and worse, and Wellbutrin, which made me angry/anxious for a while and now that's subsided.
>>1) Has anyone ever heard of these medications making the depression much worse, when something like Effexor has worked for me in the past?
<<Paxil made me worse, even making me want to die. I was on it for about a year. The week after I stopped taking it was the best week of my life. I felt so good and had great energy, and then I crashed into depression again.>>2) Is there a medication anyone can recommend that I try to help boost my seretonin that might not have these devasting affects as the medications I have tried?
<<SSRIs work on seratonin and Wellbutrin works or norepinephrine and dopamine. I don't know which one are best for you, but they do work differently. Wellbutrin seems to be more stimulating for me while SSRIs put me to sleep.>>7) Could the ringing in the ears and subsequent intolerance to Effexor and Amitriptlyine have anything to do with each other? (because of the fact when I take them my ears pop, jaw cracks, hearing sensitivity increases)
<<I don't know from personal experience, but my mother has had tinnitus as a side effect from certain drugs....>>8) Is this some kind of seretonin toxicity that won't allow me to take to Effexor? It almost seems like the Effexor and Amitriptyline are making the seretonin problems much worse.
<<I don't know about drug interactions, either, but have been warned not to take multiple drugs that affect seratonin because it might cause toxicity.*Also* I do know that it took a long time for me to get rid of side effects and for the drugs to kick in fully. It took about 2 months on each drug before I really started noticing a good difference, and Paxil's side effects lasted the entire time I took the drug. I don't know if you've tried all these different drugs in a 2 month period whether there's been enough time for any particular drug to kick in properly. I think everyone is different on that, and I think the way you react to drugs can change over time.
Good luck, though. I hope someone else has better answers to your questions than I do. Hang in there.
Susan
Posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 20:00:04
Thank you Susan for the input and support
I was very suprised to find out that my hearing was perfectly normal today when I went to an ENT. He was at a loss of what the ringing was coming from
I have a feeling the ringing and chemical imbalance (seretonin depletion?) was caused by mushrooms. I have a feeling the change that is causing the ringing is related to why I am reacting negatively to Effexor when it once worked in the past.
I am a little worried that I am not going to be able to find anything that works to help get my sleep back to order and seretonin if that is the problem. I don't want to get addicted to Lorazapam but it seems I won't be able to fall asleep without a sleep aid until this inbalance is corrected.
Does anyone have any idea of what might be going on?
It seems like seretonin depletion, but I don't really actually feel sad or necessarily down as I have anxiety and racing thoughts coinciding with a just completely out of it spacey/light headed type feeling.
Thanks for reading. Sorry to make my question so long, but I thought I would try to be thorough and include all the details.
Posted by stjames on October 1, 2003, at 23:08:43
In reply to Thanks Susan- Tinnitus not damage related, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 20:00:04
I have a feeling the ringing and chemical imbalance (seretonin depletion?) was caused by mushrooms. I have a feeling the change that is causing the ringing is related to why I am reacting negatively to Effexor when it once worked in the past.
I don't think any of these are related just as depression in not a seretonin depletion or
chemical imbalance. Human biology is always in balance, it has to be. Every system seaks its own level or lowest energy state. However just because a system is balanced does not mean it is functioning as well as it should.Tinnitius is very, very common.
Posted by John1022 on October 2, 2003, at 8:16:39
In reply to Re: Thanks Susan- Tinnitus not damage related, posted by stjames on October 1, 2003, at 23:08:43
Thanks for the input stjames. I am pretty sure the mushrooms caused some kind of change which caused the ringing in my ears and a change in something which now is not letting my sleep be triggered. I have had these same feelings in the past (minus the tinnitus) that have been immediately corrected by Effexor XR.
But now taking the Effexor XR is making me feel 10 times worse to the point where I can barely function (anxiety, sleeplessness, feeling out of it, racing thoughts)
Do you or anyone else have any ideas?
Thanks
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 3, 2003, at 20:02:29
In reply to Re: Thanks Susan- Tinnitus not damage related, posted by John1022 on October 2, 2003, at 8:16:39
> Thanks for the input stjames. I am pretty sure the mushrooms caused some kind of change which caused the ringing in my ears and a change in something which now is not letting my sleep be triggered.
--------------As stjames mentioned, I wouldn't necessarily assume that the mushrooms caused the problem. As human beings, we tend to want to have reasons for events that don't have clear origins. The stock market fluctuates every day, and every day the guy on the news appends the change with "because investors were wary of this or that" or whatever else sounds like a good idea. We're wired to think this way. During a depression, we're also wired to think that we're bad people who've done bad things that caused all our problems, and we're usually either wrong, or exaggerating things.
To clarify, I don't disagree with your assessment. You know more about your body than I ever will. Just suggesting that it may have been in the mail anyway.
Posted by pixygoth on October 4, 2003, at 13:10:54
In reply to Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Mushrooms in my experience can give you a kind of depressive feeling later due mostly to tiredness... bu I've had lots of trys and I'm sure they've never messed with my mood.
My perceptions, maybe, but not my mood.
Where were they from, anyway, cos that makes a lot of difference?On the other hand, psychedelics in general can have serious effects on some people - I've never seen it as a mood thing, but more with paranioa and disassociations...
Posted by John1022 on October 4, 2003, at 22:13:40
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by pixygoth on October 4, 2003, at 13:10:54
I am not sure where they were from. They were were the run of the mill cubensis that we picked up at a Phish show. Mushrooms work by affecting/manipulating seretonin and I am pretty sure that is the problem I have going on right now. They cause a rapid release of seretonin causing the effects and then in some people (probably very rarely) cause a depletion of seretonin. But this could also be all caused by the stress of a recent job which was a pretty big change in my life.
But I think that ecstacy (which I also think caused the exact same problem with me once in the past, which was fixed by Effexor) did the exact same thing to me days after use in the past. I almost want to campaign the rest of my life to young, influencable kids the dangers of drugs and to stay the fuck away from them. It is just not worth it...
Posted by John1022 on October 5, 2003, at 21:47:48
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 4, 2003, at 22:13:40
Excuse my above language Dr. Bob and everyone else. Please feel free to delete that last post as the language was not appropriate, but I feel that strongly about drugs now that I used that word. No excuse. I shouldn't have to say that to articulate my disdain for them now, but it was a slip at the time of posting
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 5, 2003, at 22:19:09
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 5, 2003, at 21:47:48
Posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 14:36:11
In reply to Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Ever consider that you may be bipolar? Bipolars have a tough time on antidepressants.
katia
Posted by john1022 on October 14, 2003, at 17:33:16
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse » John1022, posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 14:36:11
Hi Katia,
That is something I am considering now. The problem is I have never really had any wild mood swings at all when I go from up to down really quickly. I would like to hear what anyone else thinks though. Thanks
Posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 2:02:52
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by john1022 on October 14, 2003, at 17:33:16
There's lots of us who are bipolar, me included. I've been dxed as Bipolar II. it's a milder version - you should check out
www.psycheducation.com
I think it's .com it could be .org or .edu
have a look.
otherwise, go back in the history here and see what posts you see re: BP
It has many different faces, not just the classic manic depression.
katia
Posted by ive on October 15, 2003, at 11:29:37
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by john1022 on October 14, 2003, at 17:33:16
i've been off lexipro for 7 weeks, when i was on it, it gave me night sweats, now that i am off of it i still have night sweats. could it still be in my system? when will it leave?
Posted by john1022 on October 15, 2003, at 18:23:10
In reply to lexipro, posted by ive on October 15, 2003, at 11:29:37
Hi Ive,
Lexapro has a medium to long half-life from what I remeber, but I would think it would be out of your system by now, but who knows.
I was on Elavil (which has a long half-life as well) and have been off it for 3 weeks. I had some pretty bad reactions to it and can tell that now after 3 weeks it is still slightly in my system. It seems to be getting better by the day though.
Not to pry, but could the night sweats be related to menopause? My mom is currently going through menopause and is having trouble sleeping and waking up with hot sweats every night. Just a thought...
Posted by ive on October 16, 2003, at 10:02:50
In reply to Re: lexipro, posted by john1022 on October 15, 2003, at 18:23:10
no, it's not menopause, i'm 28, thaks for your answer though
Posted by Clayton on October 31, 2003, at 15:05:36
In reply to Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Prozac made depression worse. Paxil made depession worse. A new pdoc added Remaron to Paxil and it was a miracle! A true life saver! My mood depression has improved 95% (in three weeks). My debilitaing SAD is, likwise, 95% controlled. My insomnia is down anout 75%.
Bring norephinephine into play as well as seratonin. Because Remaron increases production of both neurotransmitters (instead of blocking reuptake), and because it has different action on the receptors, it is synergistic with SSRIs.
Find the right balance of the two, enhanced in the right way. Options are SSRIs, SNRIs, SSNRIs and Remaron.
There are less convention options but this is a promising strategy if all you've tried is upping your seratonin through reuptake blocking.
Posted by lucy_fyrr on November 3, 2003, at 23:39:35
In reply to Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by John1022 on October 1, 2003, at 10:58:59
Hi, I really do sympathize with you. I have experimented with many classes of illegal drugs over some years, and have had my share of bad reactions, and bad trips that never seem to wear off. But I'll get to that in a bit...
First off, you shouldn't be worried about Effexor XR not working the same way it did before. I've been told by my doctor that a drug will not necessarily work the same way if it is discontinued and then used again for the second time.
Secondly, you sound like you've had quite the combination of drugs in you. I don't know how much time u let go by b4 trying a new med, but part of the problem may be that your body is being thrown out of balance constantly.
If your main problem has to do with sleep and anxiety, then why don't you ask your doc about an antianxiety med, like Lorazepam?
If SSRIs aren't working for you and actually are putting you into a depressed mood, you might consider going off antidepressants. I tried Effexor XR about a year ago for depression and anxiety and I noticed it didn't help my depression at all, although it did calm me down and help me sleep a bit. In the end I felt better off without Effexor.
But about your state being a result of illicit drugs... It is very possible. Even weed has put me into bouts of depression and the expected sluggishness, let alone any other drugs. What you describe (trouble sleeping, anxiety, racing thoughts) reminds me of times when I'd be coming down from cocaine and amphetamines. Did you mention something about using ecstasy? If so, becoming depressed and anxious could be from that. Coming down from stimulants is a horrible experience, and it often sticks around for a while. I'm really not sure if mushrooms bring these sort of reactions out in ppl, but then again everyone's chemistry is different. I would try to talk to my doc about trying to be sober from all meds for a little while. And if that's unbearable, then try something new to treat whatever symptoms you may have at that point. For myself, I was best off once I took myself off my antidepressants, kept my mind on one thing at a time, and made sure I exercised. Exercise helps many ppl, so if you're not already going to the gym, or being active, it would be good to do so.
I hope some of the above is useful to you. Either way, I hope things start turning around for the better.> Hello,
>
> I am having a very serious problem with depression. I have had two bouts of depression in the past 4 years, each of which was effectively treated by Effexor XR with only minor side effects (ringing in ears, sexual dysfunction).
>
> The symptoms of my depression when it sets in have nothing to do with feelings of sadness or guilt, but I just feel extremely off/foggy, racing thoughts, anxiety and my sleep is not triggering at all.
>
> About three days after a concert in August 2003, I simulatanously got ringing in my ears (tinnitus) that hasn't disappeared in 2 months and the exact feelings of depression I have had in the past started at around the same time a few days after the concert.
>
> Over the past 2 months, I have tried 5HTP together with St. John's Wort, Wellbutrin by itself, Effexor by itself and Amitriptyline after that in that order, obviously not together. All have made the depression about 10 times worse except 5HTP which seemed to calm me, make me feel more balanced and helped with my sleep. (But I worry of it not being FDA approved)
>
> The other 3 (Effexor, Wellbutrin and Amitriptyline) seem to be having the opposite effect on my seretonin causing me to have more severe depression, anxiety, less able to fall asleep and a very deep almost non-functional depression where I am to the point where I might lose my management job. I start to feel better again when I stop taking them and they clear out of my system, but my brain balance does not go back to normal as my sleep is not triggering.
>
> There was a point after taking the 5HTP and St. John's where my psych asked me to stop and clean out my system for a week before starting Amitriptyline (to possibly help with tinnitus and depression) where I felt almost fine, except my sleep was still not triggering and I still felt a little off.
>
> I stopped taking the Amitriptyline three days ago and I am hoping I start to feel better, but right now it has really caused a serious deep depression and has me feeling terrible. When I stopped taking the Effexor (which also made me feel even worse, opposite effect than intended?) before that, I felt better after about a week, almost felt normal except my sleep was not triggering.
>
> I know my body and I know I am giving these drugs time to act as I feel them starting to act, but they are just having the opposite affect making the depression worse.
>
> I am now almost positive that the tinnitus is caused by noise damage and that is something I will have to live with. But the medications I have tried have all made me feel extremely, almost non-functionally bad, have created more anxiety, make my sleep worse, increase the tinnitus and seem to have another side affect on my ears and jaw.
>
> When I took them (especially Effexor and Amitriptyline), my nose would run, my jaws would crack, my ears would pop and they would all make the tinnitus worse. It also made my hearing a lot more sensitive to noise and I could begin to hear tv's and computers ring. It is almost like the drugs were having an opposite affect on my seretonin causing it to be extremely depleted and make me feel terrible.
>
> I am pretty sure this depression and past depressions have been caused by stress of a new job, or more likely using magic mushrooms twice, which I know manipulate seretonin levels have each time have caused depression days later after use. I am almost thinking it is probably the later (mushrooms). I have always thought mushrooms were harmless, but now I know they manipulate seretonin as I am evidence of that and it upsets me that everyone talks about them being harmless, which for most I am sure they are, but my brain's chemistry seems to be sensitive to them.
>
> I didn't put the two together and probably made the worst decision of my life by trying them again, which is my fault. I have now sworn off all drug use and I am simutanously quitting smoking marijuana at this time as well, because it too is having an opposite effect of causing more anxiety when it has also worked as an anti-anxiety agent for me.
>
> I am almost affraid to try anything else and have it make me feel as bad as these have. I am worried that any SSRI is going to make me feel terrible.
>
> My question are these:
>
> 1) Has anyone ever heard of these medications making the depression much worse, when something like Effexor has worked for me in the past?
>
> 2) Is there a medication anyone can recommend that I try to help boost my seretonin that might not have these devasting affects as the medications I have tried?
>
> 3) How long does Amitriptlyine stay in your system? It has been 3 days and I still feel devastatingly depressed and anxious.
>
> 4) Should I try 5HTP again because it seemed to work with no side effects? Are there any brands that have proven to be less toxic or not having peak X?
>
> 5) Are there any medications similar to 5HTP that might work that are approved by the FDA?
>
> 6) Could traces of St. John's Wort in my body be causing any of these reactions when I take the prescribed Effexor or Amitriptyline?
>
> 7) Could the ringing in the ears and subsequent intolerance to Effexor and Amitriptlyine have anything to do with each other? (because of the fact when I take them my ears pop, jaw cracks, hearing sensitivity increases)
>
> 8) Is this some kind of seretonin toxicity that won't allow me to take to Effexor? It almost seems like the Effexor and Amitriptyline are making the seretonin problems much worse.
>
> I know this was long, but I very much appreciate any feedback on any of these questions as it is almost the point of being debilitating. My psychiatrist is at a loss for words of why Effexor worked at one point years ago, and now it is having the opposite effect.
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> John
>
>
>
>
Posted by Clayton on November 4, 2003, at 1:41:17
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by lucy_fyrr on November 3, 2003, at 23:39:35
I have street drug experiences with pot and a little speed that sound like yours. The insomnia in particular is usually assocoaiated with pot use and the symptoms are identical to yours. Very similar anxiety disorders, too. Speed, unfortunately, causes permanent damage to thr dopamine and seratonin systems. Permanent effects of pot use are much more controversial. I feel much better since giving up pot and the insomnia abated over the course of a couple years.
I find regular, sustained, strenuous cardiovascular exercise the very best remedy for depression and anxiety.
If 5HTP does the job, go with it. Whats the problem?
What worked extrordinarily well for me was Remaron. It enhances both seratonin and norepineprine producion and thus increases supply without reuptake blocking. Essentially, you brain makes more. There's a growing belief that norepinephine is as essentual as sertoninin in treating depression. And increasing supply just seems to have a differnt effect than blocking reuptake.
Okay..the full story. Prozac did nothing for me. Paxil did nothing for me. I now take Paxil AND Remaron together which has relieved insomnia, stopped SAD and almost obliterated mood depression. (Yes, there still is that occasssional bad day, but now usually on an weekend when I'm not productively engaged). It's stopped costing me jobs.
The exercise remains a key element of the regimine. Jogging and swimming are geat.
Posted by john1022 on November 14, 2003, at 18:59:35
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse » lucy_fyrr, posted by Clayton on November 4, 2003, at 1:41:17
Thanks for responding Clayton and lucy-frr. My doctor actually reccommended that I stay off everything (like lucy-frr reccommended). I think that was a good idea but I started to feel like crap after about a week. I am currently taking lithium orotate and I think it might be slightly helping, although I still am having sleep problems and anxiety. I am currently taking Lorazepam though and hopefully the lithium will kick in. I actually mentioned Remeron to my doc, but because of my bad reactions to most meds so far she think I might be bipolar and wants to stay away from AD's at the moment and see if a mood stabilizer will help. Thanks again for the feedback from all. Take care
Posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:08:46
In reply to Re: Serious Problem: SSRI's making depression worse, posted by john1022 on November 14, 2003, at 18:59:35
> Thanks for responding Clayton and lucy-frr. My doctor actually reccommended that I stay off everything (like lucy-frr reccommended). I think that was a good idea but I started to feel like crap after about a week. I am currently taking lithium orotate and I think it might be slightly helping, although I still am having sleep problems and anxiety. I am currently taking Lorazepam though and hopefully the lithium will kick in. I actually mentioned Remeron to my doc, but because of my bad reactions to most meds so far she think I might be bipolar and wants to stay away from AD's at the moment and see if a mood stabilizer will help. Thanks again for the feedback from all. Take care
**HI
So you did consider the BP diagnosis? I"m considering taking Lithium Orotate. Please update me on your experience with that. I've heard conflicting things about it. Mostly that it just doesn't cut the mustard.
How long have you been on it? And who prescibed it for you? Did your docotor suggest it?
--katia
This is the end of the thread.
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