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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by stjames on December 12, 2003, at 19:18:47
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by marcel.S on December 12, 2003, at 14:17:28
BTW, it is not addictive.
As will all the psychedelics.
Posted by stjames on December 12, 2003, at 19:29:00
In reply to Ibogaine?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 8, 2003, at 11:25:16
check out www.maps.org, they are doing legit research and have some good mailing lists with
well clued scientests. They are doing gov sanctioned
research.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 12, 2003, at 23:37:03
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by stjames on December 12, 2003, at 19:18:47
I read the studies...more proof please...1 website doesn't do it for me...
Posted by marcel.S on December 13, 2003, at 13:20:22
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 12, 2003, at 23:37:03
I guess someone's personal experience doesn't do it for you either. I was just trying to be helpful as I've participated in an ibogaine research project twice and wanted to relate my experience.
Marcel
Posted by stjames on December 13, 2003, at 13:26:51
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 12, 2003, at 23:37:03
> I read the studies...more proof please...1 website doesn't do it for me...
If you will take a look at the web site there are many studies referanced.
Posted by stjames on December 13, 2003, at 13:48:56
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 12, 2003, at 23:37:03
> I read the studies...more proof please...1 website doesn't do it for me...
I was going to let this go but I can't. That web site I posted is chock o block filled with government studies and a database filled with papers. It is far more that 1 website. If you are not going to read it, then don't dismiss it.
Posted by kara lynne on December 13, 2003, at 18:59:10
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by marcel.S on December 12, 2003, at 14:17:28
Hi marcel,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Would you say that for a person who has never done any work on himself that it would still have that effect? I mean someone who has done no real self investigating, or therapy. Also, did it obfuscate the need for 12 step meetings for you?And you said that you did it twice. So after the first time you experienced cravings again after a while, but the second time 'held'?
What differentiates it from other psychoactive drugs like LSD or MDMA? Can you expound on the insights you had into yourself?
Thank you so much,
Kara.
Posted by kara lynne on December 13, 2003, at 19:04:19
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?/ marcel, posted by kara lynne on December 13, 2003, at 18:59:10
I would really like to talk to you about this more if I could.
Posted by zenhussy on December 13, 2003, at 19:48:57
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by marcel.S on December 12, 2003, at 14:17:28
> This is my 1st post here- I found the site by accident and the thread on ibogaine interested me. I've done ibogaine twice, both times for detox off of opiates. It does an amazing job of that- after taking ibogaine you have no withdrawal or post-acute withdrawal symptoms at all. But it's far more than that. It's an incredibly strong hallucinogen (makes acid look/feel like child's play). Unbelievably intense. Extremely visual. It lasts about 24 hours and you are ataxic for the first 7-9 hours meaning that basically you can't move- you just lay still for that time and have the experience. It can be both terrifying and enlightening, but no one I've ever know who's taken it would describe it as "fun." I don't know of anyone who's taken it who would ever do it recreationally. It has been described as being able to compress 10 years of therapy into 24 hours and I believe that is accurate. You gain unbelievable insights into yourself and at the same time is a tremendously spiritual experience. I came out of the room after taking ibogaine a different person that walked into the room 24 hours before. BTW, it is not addictive.
> Marcel.SMarcel.S,
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with ibogaine.
It sounds like there are a few of us here dying to hear more if you are willing.
I'm also quite interested in the questions asked by Kara Lynne in her two posts above.
Take care and again, thank you.
zenhussy (who has been researching ibogaine for years to see if there could be any applications for ptsd with this fascinating shrub)
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 11:14:29
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by stjames on December 13, 2003, at 13:48:56
OK...read it and haven't dismissed it...my overly cynical pharmaceutical mind at work, i guess. i guess what i needed was a 2 to 5 year follow up. always suspicious as to long term maintenance. i really DO hope that this could be the powerful tool that it seems...however, i just know that there won't be any US or Canadian approval. Just know it..and that's a shame...
Posted by stjames on December 14, 2003, at 15:01:13
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 11:14:29
however, i just know that there won't be any US or Canadian approval.
Despite the fact that the US is allowing studies ?
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 15:17:41
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by stjames on December 14, 2003, at 15:01:13
yes, unfortunately, despite that. maybe 10 yrs. down the road, but what good does that do now?
Posted by stjames on December 14, 2003, at 16:03:37
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 15:17:41
> yes, unfortunately, despite that. maybe 10 yrs. down the road, but what good does that do now?
There are other countries one can go to for treatment. Mexico is one of them, I think.
Drug abuse will be with us far longer than 10 years, I think.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 17:45:15
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by stjames on December 14, 2003, at 16:03:37
oh yes, you are absolutely right...just thinking in terms of health care for the unfortunate...if you can afford to go to Mexico, or abroad, then that's great...but what about those who can't? subject to their income...not fair...
Posted by MarcelS on December 15, 2003, at 13:32:01
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?/ marcel, posted by kara lynne on December 13, 2003, at 18:59:10
Hi I've written about this so extensively on other boards, so I'm just pasting something I wrote previously re the experience itself. But as to your specific questions: I think it would have the same effect regardless of how much work one has done on themselves. I didn't stay clean either time- it gave me a "window" of about 90 days without any cravings both times, but each time I started using again. I'm now on suboxone and have been clean since starting that. It is soooo much stronger, more intense, more visual than LSD, MDMA or any other hallucinogen I've tried. LSD is like a baby step compared to ibogaine. It's very hard to describe- as someone I know who's done it numerous times says: "it's a knowing, not a saying." But following- from another post I made to a different board is my attempt to describe it:
OK Sha, you asked for it. I have literally about a 50 page notebook filled with my recollections of my journeys and the impact they had on my life- the thoughts that occured to me while being on ibogaine and in the weeks after.
To try to give a lit bit of info about the experience itself. My first experience was absolutely horrible. Without a doubt the worst experience of my life. I had what they call a dysphoric experience, where you kind of lose touch with reality. I can only explain it by saying that I was in a state of unimaginable terror for about 12 hours. Each second seemed like it lasted the length of the age of the universe. It was, quite literally, hell. And I didn't know that a drug was doing it to me. The doc (they have LOTS of docs, emergency docs, psychiatrists, neurologists, etc.) there decided to let me ride it out until the ibogaine was distributed throughout my body. They were monitoring my blood (as well as all other body functions) at all times to make sure I wasn't in any physical danger because they wanted to wait to get to that point before bringing me down some. Once I got there they shot me up with some valium which brough me back to the world. Well to a world, not the world as we know it, but a strange world not as terrifying as the initial part of the journey was. The main doc came and talked to me and planted some ideas in my mind and I "worked" incredibly hard for about 12 more hours. I saw myself in ways that I had never seen myself before. I know it sounds crazy, but I truly belive that the plant brought me to god. I had never believed in god in my life, but ibogaine showed me how all things in the world are connected and how there is a god and I also came to see that a part of god is in all of us. My whole spirituality now is based on what I learned from my ibogaine journey. I saw so much that I can't write it all but after the valium shot brought me down a notch, it was all OK. Not to say it wasn't still unbelievably intense, but in a good way.
The experience itself- you lay in a bed, monitored to a heart machine. Ibogaine is an ataxic drug meaning it sort of paralyzes your body. So you lay there completely still for about 12-14 hours. At that point your muscles begin to work again and you can get up, go outside and smoke, talk to other people (although I didn't feel like talking). I had too much work to do. Work as in learning about myself and learning about god. Every journey seems to have a theme. The theme of my first journey was to find the "real me." And the plant helped me to do that. I would kind of "try on" different ideas (in my mind) and see if they fit. If they didn't I'd throw them away, if they did I'd keep them. For example the idea came into my mind: divorce your wife. I "tried this on" it didn't fit, and I knew things were good with my wife. Other ideas were just crazy. But a number of them fit. It's very hard to explain. When the journey was over I swore I would never, ever, ever do ibogaine again. Yet barely three months late I found myself with the opportunity to do it again and jumped at it. I had no fear of doing it the second time. Somehow I knew it would be different.
When I was in St. Kitts, the island where the treatment is given, the second time, my dad died of cancer the day I got there. He had been ill for about six months and Ihad been to visit him 3 days before he died and said good-bye to him. When the doc told me my dad had died my first reaction was that I had to leave and go to his funeral. The doc talked to my mom and my sisters and everyone agreed that I should stay there. That my dad was gone and only his body was left and that I had said my good-bye. So I stayed. And two days later I took ibogaine again. This time it was very gently (well, relatively). I saw rivers of tears- all the tears that people had cried over me, and all those people standing on the banks of the river of tears. Ibogaine is a tremendously visual drug- the hallucinations are incredibly strong. Don't know if other people believe in reincarnation, or life after death, but I do believe that I saw my dad looking at me, crying for me and just wanting nothing else than for me to be well. I know it sounds crazy, but I believe it was more than a hallucination, that it actually was my father talking to me.
One of the things I came to believe from ibogaine is that there is a lot more to this universe than our limited perception of reality percieves. That there are all kinds of realities out there and that the universe is a very mysterious place with many different realities of which we see only a little piece.
Ibogaine is basically a root of the iboga plant and is used by the Bwiti religion in west Africa as a rite of passage. It is given to adolescents as their entrance into adulthood. They take even larger doses than we were given as their journeys are generally about 3 days long. The believe that ibogaine "cracks open the head." That is, it literally open your brain to the existence of alternate realities. I believe that this is true. It is similar to ayahuasca that is used by tribal peoples in the amazon, the mushrooms used by people in Mexico, and peyote used by the American Indians. But as I said much stronger than all of those except ayahuasca which I understand is even stronger than ibogaine. But all of these religions of so called "primitive" groups, give them an insight to the reality of the universe that I think we don't have in the US, or in western society.
I wouldn't trade the experiences for anything. While each time I took it I did remain clean for a couple of months, with no cravings whatsoever. I mean someone could have but a bag of dope on a table in front of me and I would have had zero interest in doing it. But that wears off after the noribogaine (which is what ibogaine converts to) leaves your body the cravings came back as strong as ever. The doc who runs the project said she doesn't believe that ibogaine will ever be made legal in the US, simply because it's a hallunogenic drug. Never mind that is by far the most effective way to detox someone from opiates. As I said in my last message, the guy that was in the bed in the same room with me when I took ibogaine the second time was on 450mg of meth. He woke up (as I did) with absolutely no withdrawal or post-acute withdrawal symptoms. Truly a miracle in that sense. The very next day we were out sailing, snorkelling, walking along the beach.
They are trying to patent noribogaine, which supposedly will be as effective as ibogaine, but without the spiritual journey. They're trying to develp a patch that you can wear which would keep the cravings away. And I can definitely attest that noribogaine works magic on cravings. So hopefully, our fucked up gov't will see fit to allow this as a treatment method. I've seen lots of people did become and stay clean after ibogaine, but just as many who went back to using.
But even though I went back to using after having a couple of months clean after each experience ibogaine was definitely a life-changing experience. I don't feel I've really done justice to it because it's an intensely personal thing, everyone experiences it differently and it just takes you to a place where words are not adequate. But I hope this give some idea.
Hope this doesn't make me sound like a nut :).
Marcel
Posted by MarcelS on December 15, 2003, at 13:42:08
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 15:17:41
Hi again- For those of you who might not want to read my long post- the doc who heads the studies of ibogaine is 100 percent certain it will not be approved in the US because it is a hallucinogen. They are hoping that noribogaine, a chemical derivative that stops cravings but doesn't give you the hallucinogenic experience will be approved. They are trying to get a patent for a patch at this time. It is available overseas- Mexico, the Carribean, and other places as you said, at a high cost. It is available in Vancouver, BC at a very low cost (free for some), but I'm not sure if you have to be a Canadian citizen.
Marcel
Posted by stjames on December 15, 2003, at 13:49:03
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 17:45:15
> oh yes, you are absolutely right...just thinking in terms of health care for the unfortunate...if you can afford to go to Mexico, or abroad, then that's great...but what about those who can't? subject to their income...not fair...
Well, Ibogaine comes from a plant. Nuff said.
Posted by zenhussy on December 15, 2003, at 14:45:12
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?/ marcel, posted by MarcelS on December 15, 2003, at 13:32:01
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 15, 2003, at 18:19:09
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by MarcelS on December 15, 2003, at 13:42:08
in Vancouver? really...i'm surprised at that, kinda...yes for free treatment, you would have to be a citizen. but, if they are testing it experimentally, it wouldn't matter where you were from as long as you had a form of payment. i doubt any form of insurance would cover this.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 15, 2003, at 18:47:38
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by stjames on December 15, 2003, at 13:49:03
> > oh yes, you are absolutely right...just thinking in terms of health care for the unfortunate...if you can afford to go to Mexico, or abroad, then that's great...but what about those who can't? subject to their income...not fair...
>
> Well, Ibogaine comes from a plant. Nuff said.
>
> as are so many drugs...what is your point?
Posted by marcel.S on December 15, 2003, at 22:15:31
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 15, 2003, at 18:19:09
Hi: My understanding is that the treatment in Vancouver is not research/experimental. The treatment was approved by the gov't. as a legitimate form of treatment for opiate addiction. Not 100 percent sure on this, though.
Marcel
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 14:08:02
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by marcel.S on December 15, 2003, at 22:15:31
> Hi: My understanding is that the treatment in Vancouver is not research/experimental. The treatment was approved by the gov't. as a legitimate form of treatment for opiate addiction. Not 100 percent sure on this, though.
>
> MarcelActually, the treatment site in Vancouver is privately funded, and operates in a grey area....it's not explicitly illegal, but it is not legitimized by government policy either.
The funding is provided by a man who is head of the Marijuana Party, a legal political entity. Ibogaine is not illegal in Canada, as far as I know.
Lar
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 16, 2003, at 14:26:42
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by marcel.S on December 15, 2003, at 22:15:31
hi marcel...no it is not government sponsored, it is a private site. the drug is not generally approved for public administering. as this site is privately funded, it operates outside of the public health care system. i'm sure that the cost is substantial, but still cheaper than Mexico, or abroad..
Posted by indragonchains on January 4, 2004, at 22:52:18
In reply to Ibogaine?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 8, 2003, at 11:25:16
I am new to this board, but I have also done ibogaine and can safely say that I seriously doubt that anyone could be addicted to it, psychologically or otherwise. The visions are so intense that it is unbelieveable, and also it is hard to sleep for awhile afterwards, which is not fun! But it kept me clean for a month which is great, (it didn't last and I went on methadone but switched to suboxone), and the withdrawals were not nearly as bad as quitting cold-turkey! Also I learned so much about why I used heroin, and I realized a lot of reasons of why I should quit. Realizing these things has made follow up treatment w/ suboxone better, because I understand my addiction better, and remember a lot of the reasons that I want to be off heroin. Also, I heard that there are some free treatments, but I don't know where, but anyone could probably find out through the web. I would love to compare expieriences with anybody, so Marcel or anybody, if you've the time and inclination, please email me. Thanks!
Posted by Howard on January 6, 2004, at 23:20:20
In reply to Re: Ibogaine?, posted by krazybirdlady on December 14, 2003, at 11:14:29
> OK...read it and haven't dismissed it...my overly cynical pharmaceutical mind at work, i guess. i guess what i needed was a 2 to 5 year follow up. always suspicious as to long term maintenance. i really DO hope that this could be the powerful tool that it seems...however, i just know that there won't be any US or Canadian approval. Just know it..and that's a shame...
Long term out is long term out. Start by looking at ibogaine's short term effects. I think it the best treatment for opioid withdrawal one could imagine. Whatever comes after that is just icing on the cake.
If you are interested in the pharmaceutical background of ibogaine check out http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html
Some other interesting articles are, http://www.doraweiner.org/alexanderlotsof.html and http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html
The treatment experiences reported on the Ibogaine Dossier are very diverse in keeping with pharmaceutical effects so read them all. http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/treatment.html as they vary from great to terrrible.
There is also a three conference report that just went up on ibogaine related topics.
http://www.doraweiner.org/e_w_report.html
This is the end of the thread.
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