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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lurker on March 16, 2000, at 12:49:02
Has anyone read the news article on depression.com web-site regarding ssri's and permanent brain cell damage? The study was performed on rats and is next supposed to be tried on primates. Pretty scary stuff. Any comments?...
Posted by saint james on March 16, 2000, at 13:34:05
In reply to Brain Cell Damage, posted by Lurker on March 16, 2000, at 12:49:02
> Has anyone read the news article on depression.com web-site regarding ssri's and permanent brain cell damage? The study was performed on rats and is next supposed to be tried on primates. Pretty scary stuff. Any comments?...
James.....
DOSAGE. If you give rats high enough doses of anything (even water) you will see damage.
james
Posted by saint james on March 16, 2000, at 15:09:39
In reply to Brain Cell Damage, posted by Lurker on March 16, 2000, at 12:49:02
> Has anyone read the news article on depression.com web-site regarding ssri's and permanent brain cell damage? The study was performed on rats and is next supposed to be tried on primates. Pretty scary stuff. Any comments?...
James here....In the future please get your facts straight. This study never mentions damage or permanent.
"In experiments with rats, scientists discovered that large doses of these antidepressants, as well as the obesity drugs Meridia and Redux, caused certain brain cells to swell or take on a corkscrew shape. Redux is no longer on the market, pulled in 1997 due to evidence of heart-valve damage in some patients. "
This is not damage nor were the rats followed long enough to see if cells return to baseline.
j
Posted by Mark H. on March 16, 2000, at 21:42:24
In reply to Brain Cell Damage, posted by Lurker on March 16, 2000, at 12:49:02
Dear Lurker,
I think it is a good idea to put potential damage from psy-meds into perspective with the severity of the illnesses they are treating. Depression and schizophrenia are two diseases that lead to death (by suicide) with alarming frequency when untreated. Other illnesses disrupt the ability to earn a living or to sustain a mutually supportive relationship. For some people, medication may be the only way to stay out of the hospital or out of prison. Each person must decide where to draw the line in consultation with a competent medical advisor.
There are psychiatrists who refuse to use medications at all and who, for that matter, insist there is no such thing as mental illness. There is an entire Church (the Church of Scientology) which teaches that all psychiatry and all psychiatric medications are harmful. Several well known celebrities, including John Travolta, belong to this Church. The existence of such opinions, however, should not keep you from making a decision for yourself, based on your own best understanding of benefit versus risk.
Last season one pharmaceutical company came out with a pill that takes a year to clear up the mild discoloration that foot fungus can cause under the nail of one's big toe. It might be fair to ask who in their right mind would take a systemic poison for a year to have prettier toe-nails at the beach?
On the subjective level, while we should all be as conscientious as possible about our treatment choices and their effects, many of us are often just trying to get through the day, week, month or year without hurting ourselves or anyone else, and the medications we take, however harmful they may turn out to be in the long run, are making that possible.
I hope you reach a place of peace and reasonable comfort with your decision, whichever way you go. Whether you choose to take medication or not, there are plenty of people who will support you in your decision.
Posted by kazoo on March 17, 2000, at 0:47:39
In reply to Re: Brain Cell Damage, posted by Mark H. on March 16, 2000, at 21:42:24
> Has anyone read the news article on depression.com web-site regarding ssri's and permanent brain cell damage? The study was performed on rats and is next supposed to be tried on primates. Pretty scary stuff. Any comments?...
^^^^^^^^^^^^
It was reported that LSD caused brain damage, yet is I here yet now caused me with?
kazoo (woodstock generational drop out)
Posted by Cam W. on March 18, 2000, at 16:29:28
In reply to Re: Brain Cell Damage, posted by kazoo on March 17, 2000, at 0:47:39
kazoo - The LSD/brain damage (actually chromosome damage) studies were not replicable. Subsequently, they found that the lab animals (mice, I think) they were using were a bad batch. They had a more than normal rate of birth defects. Sorry dude, the brain damage was there before the LSD. ;^) After doing an extensive study on LSD for a paper in my psychology class (I was going to prove it was damaging) I found that it is probably safer "physically" (not psychologically) than smoking a cigarette (regular one). - Cam W.
Posted by Cindy W on March 19, 2000, at 10:24:15
In reply to Re: Brain Cell Damage, posted by Cam W. on March 18, 2000, at 16:29:28
> kazoo - The LSD/brain damage (actually chromosome damage) studies were not replicable. Subsequently, they found that the lab animals (mice, I think) they were using were a bad batch. They had a more than normal rate of birth defects. Sorry dude, the brain damage was there before the LSD. ;^) After doing an extensive study on LSD for a paper in my psychology class (I was going to prove it was damaging) I found that it is probably safer "physically" (not psychologically) than smoking a cigarette (regular one). - Cam W.
Cam, I was reading about various hallucinogens, wondering if some people respond to AD that are like the hallucinogens (or other illicit drugs) that they have found most congenial (i.e., ones that affect HT-1, HT-2, or whatever). One article mentioned long-term effects on neurotransmitter sites from antidepressants, not just drugs like Ecstasy. Are there any good studies on long-term antidepressant use (having used AD's for over 20 years, I fear ending up anhedonic, without any serotonergic receptors!). Thanks!
Posted by Cam W. on March 19, 2000, at 11:39:29
In reply to Re: Brain Cell Damage, posted by Cindy W on March 19, 2000, at 10:24:15
Cindy - That's an interesting concept. I don't know if your response to hallucinogens predicts response to antidepressants. SSRIs and hallucinogens (like LSD or psylocibin) both act on serotonin receptors. Both are thought to act by increasing serotonergic transmission (SSRIs via reuptake blockade and LSD via direct agonist action at a certain serotonin-2 subreceptor - ?2F-alpha). Here's a research project for a budding PhD.As to the long term effects of antidepressants, the answer is, we don't absolutely know for sure. Many recent studies have suggested that there have been no long term problems in the offspring of mothers who were pregnant while taking TCAs or Prozac. These kids are in their 20's now & so far no real differences from their peers (wait another 5 or 6 years until these 'Prozac babies' have past the most common age of first break for psychiatic disorders - eg schizophrenia and bipolar). A lecture I attended (Dr.E.Roy Chengappa) had suggested that the reason for the increase in bipolar disorder since World War II probably wasn't because of better reporting or change of diagnosis, but could be caused iatrogenically by antidepressant use. I have not seen any published studies suggesting this. In a nutshell (no pun intended), many of us have taken antidepressants for extended periods of time and we still have grown a third eye or started a religious cult based on brocolli, so it is probably safe to say that any long term, permanent changes would not manifest themselves until long after our normal lifespan, but I have no proof. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Posted by Cindy W on March 19, 2000, at 14:21:21
In reply to Re: Antidepressants Hallucinogens, posted by Cam W. on March 19, 2000, at 11:39:29
>
> Cindy - That's an interesting concept. I don't know if your response to hallucinogens predicts response to antidepressants. SSRIs and hallucinogens (like LSD or psylocibin) both act on serotonin receptors. Both are thought to act by increasing serotonergic transmission (SSRIs via reuptake blockade and LSD via direct agonist action at a certain serotonin-2 subreceptor - ?2F-alpha). Here's a research project for a budding PhD.
>
> As to the long term effects of antidepressants, the answer is, we don't absolutely know for sure. Many recent studies have suggested that there have been no long term problems in the offspring of mothers who were pregnant while taking TCAs or Prozac. These kids are in their 20's now & so far no real differences from their peers (wait another 5 or 6 years until these 'Prozac babies' have past the most common age of first break for psychiatic disorders - eg schizophrenia and bipolar). A lecture I attended (Dr.E.Roy Chengappa) had suggested that the reason for the increase in bipolar disorder since World War II probably wasn't because of better reporting or change of diagnosis, but could be caused iatrogenically by antidepressant use. I have not seen any published studies suggesting this. In a nutshell (no pun intended), many of us have taken antidepressants for extended periods of time and we still have grown a third eye or started a religious cult based on brocolli, so it is probably safe to say that any long term, permanent changes would not manifest themselves until long after our normal lifespan, but I have no proof. Hope this helps - Cam W.Thanks, Cam! Enjoyed your comments. If I didn't already have my degree, I'd consider doing a dissertation on this (I did mine on staff burnout). Thought it might be interesting...in college, my favorite DOC was mushrooms, for self-medication; now I respond best to Effexor-XR and Serzone (esp. enjoyed the visual "trails" I got sometimes with Serzone, but unfortunately it didn't help OCD so discontinued it). Don't know if there is a connection. Since I have taken very high-dose SSRI's for a long time, I want to make sure I keep my serotonergic receptors though! (If the DEA is reading this, I only use prescription Rx. now!)
Posted by saint james on March 20, 2000, at 1:59:50
In reply to Re: Brain Cell Damage, posted by Cindy W on March 19, 2000, at 10:24:15
> kazoo - The LSD/brain damage (actually chromosome damage) studies were not replicable. Subsequently, they found that the lab animals (mice, I think) they were using were a bad batch. They had a more than normal rate of birth defects. Sorry dude, the brain damage was there before the LSD. ;^) After doing an extensive study on LSD for a paper in my psychology class (I was going to prove it was damaging) I found that it is probably safer "physically" (not psychologically) than smoking a cigarette (regular one). - Cam W.
James here.....
A lot of the LSD studies came from the Height Free Asbury Clinic and the sample subjects were polydrug users, esp solvents, not just LSD users. In general it is hard to find good test subjects to do narrow long tern studies on one drug.
MDMA and neurotoxisity. I say no from personal experience. The anti toxic studies all point to the same thing, that the long term studies look at short term changes and that long term thing return to baseline. We don't even know what the changes mean at to macro level. I did a lot of pure MDMA or MDA from 1984-1986, I would say 100-200 hits and know several people who did the same, with no long term effects 15 yrs out.
In todays war on drugs and misinformation it is common to mis report MDMA as mptp (Hey they start with the same letter !) a synthitic opiod now being abused somewhat which is deadly to some neurology. mptp is metabolized into a substance which induces a parkinsonian disability by selectively damaging substantia nigra, which does indeed exhibit as a "frozen-up" effect on those who have been exposed to it. If MDMA has parkinsonian effects (and NO bad effects to Dopimine pathways has ever been shown in MDMA) they do not show up short term. Reports mis ID'ing MPTP as MDMA often report person only taking MDMA once or a few times and then getting sick, so clearly MDMA was not the drug taken.
All this said I can't reccomend people taking this because it is hard to know what your are getting. I also read up on everything I was burning neuro and body wise and took supplements like crazy. The real reported (like to ER) are over heating as MDMA raises body temp, usually assoc with dancing all night (M is a really big dose of speed, this in it self can cause psychotic reaction in selected people) and water intoxification when people over do rehydrating due to sweating and dancing w/o also replacing electros. Both these can cause cardio problems and being on speed while having a cardiac event is not a good idea.
james
This is the end of the thread.
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